Mickelson's place in history

[Shilgy]

Mickelson is a fantastic player, but it is hard to justify including him in the Top 10 of All Time when he hasn't ever been the best, or ('normalising' for the Woods factor) mostly even the second best, in his own era.

 

PGA Tour Money List Winner ? Nope

PGA Player of the Year ? Nope

PGA Tour Player of the Year ? Nope

Vardon Trophy ? Nope

Byron Nelson Trophy ? Nope

 

There are plenty of players outside of Woods who have won these gongs ahead of Phil as well. To illustrate this for three of these categories:

 

Money list: Norman, Couples, Price, Lehman, Duval, Singh, Kuchar, Donald, McIlroy, Spieth

PGA Player of the Year: Couples, Price, O'Meara, Norman, Singh, Harrington, Furyk, Donald, McIlroy, Spieth)

Vardon trophy: Couples, price, Norman, Elkington, Lehman, Duval, Singh, Furyk, Garcia, Kuchar, Donald, McIlroy, Spieth)

 

 

OWGR ... year end best of 2nd (4 times) and 3rd (3 times) out of 24 full years on the Tour. So 17 out of 24 years he hasn't even been ranked in the top three in his own era.

 

He's had a wonderfully enduring career no doubt, but I just don't see the dominance of others who would be above him in the GOAT list, and I'd definitely include global golfers like Norman and Ballesteros ahead of him (Norman 91 wins worldwide, Seve also 91, Mickelson 51), both of whom had significant time as #1 in the world.

Wait though Blade...are Snead Hogan and Nelson in YOUR top 10? Because one of them is the 3rd best of his generation.

[Blade Junkie]

Wait though Blade...are Snead Hogan and Nelson in YOUR top 10? Because one of them is the 3rd best of his generation.

 

I probably could have worded that first line a bit better, but I think you get the overall drift of what I am getting at ... :)

 

 

Hogan has 9 majors, topped the money list 5 times, and won 3 vardon trophies for lowest season stroke average.

 

Snead has 7 Majors, topped the money list 3 times, and won 4 Vardon trophies.

 

Nelson has 5 Majors, topped the money list twice and won 1 Vardon trophy. Probably would have won more if golf floated his boat more than farming.

 

 

Phil has 5 Majors, and has never topped the money list or won the Vardon trophy.

 

 

For me, that puts all of them above Mickelson. For the record I'd have Palmer above Phil too.

 

 

But don't get me wrong, to borrow a line from Butch Harmon ... Phil is one heck of a player ... I really hope he gets his US Open before he's done.

[Shilgy]

Wait though Blade...are Snead Hogan and Nelson in YOUR top 10? Because one of them is the 3rd best of his generation.

 

I probably could have worded that first line a bit better, but I think you get the overall drift of what I am getting at ... :)

Sure, you could argue that the best of each era is your top 10. We have had about 120 years or so of major golf. Any further back and it ws pretty much the Morris Robertson rivalry. So every 12 years pick the best player and those are your top 10.

Going backwards-from memory no stats. After Tiger is too new perhaps so we will start with Tiger.

Woods

Norman

Watson

Nicklaus

Palmer

Hogan

Nelson

Hagen

Jones

Vardon

 

There ya have it-the "official top 10" tm ** Let the arguments commence!

** Not the 10 best of all time. The 10 best in an era. Some, like Palmer, were shorter than others.

[Blade Junkie]

Wait though Blade...are Snead Hogan and Nelson in YOUR top 10? Because one of them is the 3rd best of his generation.

 

I probably could have worded that first line a bit better, but I think you get the overall drift of what I am getting at ... :)

Sure, you could argue that the best of each era is your top 10. We have had about 120 years or so of major golf. Any further back and it ws pretty much the Morris Robertson rivalry. So every 12 years pick the best player and those are your top 10.

Going backwards-from memory no stats. After Tiger is too new perhaps so we will start with Tiger.

Woods

Norman

Watson

Nicklaus

Palmer

Hogan

Nelson

Hagen

Jones

Vardon

 

There ya have it-the "official top 10" tm ** Let the arguments commence!

** Not the 10 best of all time. The 10 best in an era. Some, like Palmer, were shorter than others.

 

It's actually a pretty good list ... I think you nailed it and we can close the thread now ... :)

[Dave230]

Seve has to be up there as king of the European Tour with 50 wins yet to be touched and king of the Ryder Cup. Without his impact on those two, they may not have reached the success they are today.

 

It's not as if he was a slouch on the major front either. Greatest European player of all time.

[Jasonic]

Also, young Tom Morris INVENTED the high spinning lob shot. Pretty incredible.

[widow-maker]

Wait though Blade...are Snead Hogan and Nelson in YOUR top 10? Because one of them is the 3rd best of his generation.

 

I probably could have worded that first line a bit better, but I think you get the overall drift of what I am getting at ... :)

Sure, you could argue that the best of each era is your top 10. We have had about 120 years or so of major golf. Any further back and it ws pretty much the Morris Robertson rivalry. So every 12 years pick the best player and those are your top 10.

Going backwards-from memory no stats. After Tiger is too new perhaps so we will start with Tiger.

Woods

Norman

Watson

Nicklaus

Palmer

Hogan

Nelson

Hagen

Jones

Vardon

 

There ya have it-the "official top 10" tm ** Let the arguments commence!

** Not the 10 best of all time. The 10 best in an era. Some, like Palmer, were shorter than others.

You've got most of them. But... you've got Greg Norman in there and Sam Snead out. I'm sorry, but that's egregious. Richard is probably in cardiac arrest for a number of reasons. And Gary Player probably has to find his way into the top 10. 9 majors, plus another 9 senior majors and a million victories worldwide (or 165 or whatever he claims). Weird dude but he's got some pretty flashy credentials with all those majors and his longevity.

[Shilgy]

Wait though Blade...are Snead Hogan and Nelson in YOUR top 10? Because one of them is the 3rd best of his generation.

 

I probably could have worded that first line a bit better, but I think you get the overall drift of what I am getting at ... :)

Sure, you could argue that the best of each era is your top 10. We have had about 120 years or so of major golf. Any further back and it ws pretty much the Morris Robertson rivalry. So every 12 years pick the best player and those are your top 10.

Going backwards-from memory no stats. After Tiger is too new perhaps so we will start with Tiger.

Woods

Norman

Watson

Nicklaus

Palmer

Hogan

Nelson

Hagen

Jones

Vardon

 

There ya have it-the "official top 10" tm ** Let the arguments commence!

** Not the 10 best of all time. The 10 best in an era. Some, like Palmer, were shorter than others.

You've got most of them. But... you've got Greg Norman in there and Sam Snead out. I'm sorry, but that's egregious. Richard is probably in cardiac arrest for a number of reasons. And Gary Player probably has to find his way into the top 10. 9 majors, plus another 9 senior majors and a million victories worldwide (or 165 or whatever he claims). Weird dude but he's got some pretty flashy credentials with all those majors and his longevity.

Ahhh, but you did not read the criteria evidently. This is the best of successive, about, 12 year eras. When was Snead number one? Nelson was, Hogan was, but not Snead. Player same thing. My top 10 of all time would be slightly different as well.

[Jasonic]

Wait though Blade...are Snead Hogan and Nelson in YOUR top 10? Because one of them is the 3rd best of his generation.

 

I probably could have worded that first line a bit better, but I think you get the overall drift of what I am getting at ... :)

Sure, you could argue that the best of each era is your top 10. We have had about 120 years or so of major golf. Any further back and it ws pretty much the Morris Robertson rivalry. So every 12 years pick the best player and those are your top 10.

Going backwards-from memory no stats. After Tiger is too new perhaps so we will start with Tiger.

Woods

Norman

Watson

Nicklaus

Palmer

Hogan

Nelson

Hagen

Jones

Vardon

 

There ya have it-the "official top 10" tm ** Let the arguments commence!

** Not the 10 best of all time. The 10 best in an era. Some, like Palmer, were shorter than others.

You've got most of them. But... you've got Greg Norman in there and Sam Snead out. I'm sorry, but that's egregious. Richard is probably in cardiac arrest for a number of reasons. And Gary Player probably has to find his way into the top 10. 9 majors, plus another 9 senior majors and a million victories worldwide (or 165 or whatever he claims). Weird dude but he's got some pretty flashy credentials with all those majors and his longevity.

 

Gary player is a known cheat though.

[carn9698]

I was reminded last week of how good Phil can be. When hot he is one of the best ever. Fancy running in to a guy on a mission like that. Quite unlucky really, but Stenson was not going to let it go no matter what.

 

Phil is in the Seve Trevino Faldo group unless he get that US Open or say ends on 7 majors and then joins the Watson Player group. Top 10 is taken for many years yet.

 

Phil is already well beyond Seve/Trevino/Faldo. They all have 5 or 6 majors, but Phil's other wins put him way ahead of those other guys.

I don't think people fully appreciate how good it is to have won 42 PGA Tour events in the modern era.

I would never put Faldo in the same category as Seve or Trevino. If ever there was a case of a golfer feasting on weak fields it was Faldo. If you look at all 3 Masters wins, he was gifted two of them through choke jobs from Hoch and Norman, and won the other in a playoff. Sure he played great to be there when others faltered, but he was only a made two foot putt and an even par last round away from having one green jacket. And Floyd gave him a hand by pulling a 7 iron into the drink, but Faldo still earned that one.

you have to kiddin! Faldo would grind opponents down with great tempo and accuracy. He was the player to beat after Watson and Seve faded. Shark could not handle him most times. Faldo did split when Tiger showed up though. Great Ryder cup player as well. Clutch wedge last hole in the States to win it. Seve calling him a great champion. Seriously we tend to forget what a competitor Faldo was.

[cdnglf]

Ya know what someone -not me that's for sure-to invent is a "WAR" "wins above replacement" for golf. Using number of wins and majors alone will never work. I have used this before but it bears repeating here I think.

Look at the top 37 all time winners on the PGA tour. That is everyone with 20 or more wins. Of those 37 players 19 were born by 1914. Over 100 years ago. 6 Of the 37 were born from 1915-1935 and 8 more were born from 1936-1955. That leaves 4 players age 61 or younger on that list of 37 players. Is it really likely that the players 100 years ago were that much better? Or is it more likely that there were some greats and some pretty goods mixed in? The devil is in the details on how to discern the difference.

 

It would be very interesting to see someone take a crack at a golf WAR.

 

Your point about win leaders is spot on. ESPN is currently doing a ranking of the top 100 MLB players of all time, and some of the writers there have raised a similar point.

[PGArox]

 

 

At any rate, Phil's historical standing is a helluva lot better than I would've predicted 15 years ago, that's for sure.

 

I decided Phil would be the guy I pulled for back in January, 1994. Here is what the OWGR looked like at the time-

 

 

I truly thought Phil would have a very nice career if he could better the accomplishments of Greg Norman, which were two majors and around 20 PGA TOUR victories. I originally used those numbers in my hopes for Phil.

 

Needless to say, Phil has easily exceeded my (and I'm sure those of many others) expectations.