Stoatin Brae: Augusta, MI

[O.D.underpar]

TWPJ, Specifically, I was referring to your condescending tone and air of superiority prevalent in most of your posts in this and other threads. And thx for clearing up any doubt about your gender. And thx for the Turf 101 lesson on new green firmness due to a lack of thatch layer. Never knew that, Duh. One more question, being in the turf business, does that mean you peddle fertilizer?

 

Not sure if he peddles it or not but he sure spouts it.

[golfortennis]

Open,

 

No condescending tone on my part in most of my posts. I just challenge people from time to time that make bold statements without experiencing a broad range of courses. So it took you how many posts to get this off your chest? Obviously others didn't know about the lack of thatch layer or they wouldn't of complained about excessive firmness... Nope, don't peddle fert..

 

Um, sorry, but your posts are condescending. "I just challenge people from time to time...." "Just try to educate...."

 

Your intention may not be so, but your posts do read as though you are holier than thou. The? Thy?

 

He gave you the benefit of the doubt, given that online doesn't allow for tone, and asked you questions in all seriousness, in order to see if it was the text format giving the wrong impression, or if you really were speaking as though you were deigning to lower yourself to speak to us deplorables.

[TadWPJ]

Open,

 

No condescending tone on my part in most of my posts. I just challenge people from time to time that make bold statements without experiencing a broad range of courses. So it took you how many posts to get this off your chest? Obviously others didn't know about the lack of thatch layer or they wouldn't of complained about excessive firmness... Nope, don't peddle fert..

 

Um, sorry, but your posts are condescending. "I just challenge people from time to time...." "Just try to educate...."

 

Your intention may not be so, but your posts do read as though you are holier than thou. The? Thy?

 

He gave you the benefit of the doubt, given that online doesn't allow for tone, and asked you questions in all seriousness, in order to see if it was the text format giving the wrong impression, or if you really were speaking as though you were deigning to lower yourself to speak to us deplorables.

 

Hacker Dave wrote the following after i posted about the lack of thatch layer.

 

"When we played it, the greens were like concrete. You couldn't hold the green coming in high or low. That's not golf. Maybe they are watering the greens better, but last year was very draught like and both the fairways and greens were rock hard. We all said they saved money by not buying topsoil or installing irrigation"

 

I'm not talking down, people should want to learn ''why" certain things are a way and not make emotional based statements. Not holier. You are reading too much into it. Banter is fun, but we have too many sensitive people now a days. Then you have people who haven't played many of the Top Michigan courses declaring Forest Dunes is the basically a top 3 course in the state. When someone challenges them, they get defensive.

 

"Can't we all just get along''??

[kalamazoo]

Open,

 

No condescending tone on my part in most of my posts. I just challenge people from time to time that make bold statements without experiencing a broad range of courses. So it took you how many posts to get this off your chest? Obviously others didn't know about the lack of thatch layer or they wouldn't of complained about excessive firmness... Nope, don't peddle fert..

 

Um, sorry, but your posts are condescending. "I just challenge people from time to time...." "Just try to educate...."

 

Your intention may not be so, but your posts do read as though you are holier than thou. The? Thy?

 

He gave you the benefit of the doubt, given that online doesn't allow for tone, and asked you questions in all seriousness, in order to see if it was the text format giving the wrong impression, or if you really were speaking as though you were deigning to lower yourself to speak to us deplorables.

 

Hacker Dave wrote the following after i posted about the lack of thatch layer.

 

"When we played it, the greens were like concrete. You couldn't hold the green coming in high or low. That's not golf. Maybe they are watering the greens better, but last year was very draught like and both the fairways and greens were rock hard. We all said they saved money by not buying topsoil or installing irrigation"

 

I'm not talking down, people should want to learn ''why" certain things are a way and not make emotional based statements. Not holier. You are reading too much into it. Banter is fun, but we have too many sensitive people now a days. Then you have people who haven't played many of the Top Michigan courses declaring Forest Dunes is the basically a top 3 course in the state. When someone challenges them, they get defensive.

 

"Can't we all just get along''??

 

Hopefully you take the feedback to heart. Unfortunately I’d have to agree that your posts tend to have a douchey contrarian tone to them. I have played most of the courses on your list and anyone who ranks FD towards the bottom is likely trying to be inflammatory and get a rise out of people.

 

Also, people have every right to complain about concrete greens when paying +$100 a round, whether they understand thatch layers or not.

[golfortennis]

Open,

 

No condescending tone on my part in most of my posts. I just challenge people from time to time that make bold statements without experiencing a broad range of courses. So it took you how many posts to get this off your chest? Obviously others didn't know about the lack of thatch layer or they wouldn't of complained about excessive firmness... Nope, don't peddle fert..

 

Um, sorry, but your posts are condescending. "I just challenge people from time to time...." "Just try to educate...."

 

Your intention may not be so, but your posts do read as though you are holier than thou. The? Thy?

 

He gave you the benefit of the doubt, given that online doesn't allow for tone, and asked you questions in all seriousness, in order to see if it was the text format giving the wrong impression, or if you really were speaking as though you were deigning to lower yourself to speak to us deplorables.

 

Hacker Dave wrote the following after i posted about the lack of thatch layer.

 

"When we played it, the greens were like concrete. You couldn't hold the green coming in high or low. That's not golf. Maybe they are watering the greens better, but last year was very draught like and both the fairways and greens were rock hard. We all said they saved money by not buying topsoil or installing irrigation"

 

I'm not talking down, people should want to learn ''why" certain things are a way and not make emotional based statements. Not holier. You are reading too much into it. Banter is fun, but we have too many sensitive people now a days. Then you have people who haven't played many of the Top Michigan courses declaring Forest Dunes is the basically a top 3 course in the state. When someone challenges them, they get defensive.

 

"Can't we all just get along''??

 

And here we go again. "People should want to learn..."

 

Here's the thing, you're not challenging. You're saying they're too stupid to have an opinion. There's a few people in this thread who know a thing or two themselves. It's one thing to disagree, which people in this forum do quite a bit of; it's quite another to basically call them too uninformed to actually have an opinion, thus you are here to "educate them."

 

As far as getting along, a number of guys in the ATMG thread play a lot of golf together. I know of some who have hosted other posters at their house, and I can assure you, guys don't back off their opinion just so they can be friends. But they disagree with the opinion, they don't question the intelligence of the person with the opinion.

[TadWPJ]

******? I'm dealing with homers here. No, there are many folks that think FD is overrated (i guess not on here) and nobody is trying to get a rise. I guess maintenance level is over valued on here. If someone is playing a new course and paying over $100 for a green fee, they should wait 3 years until playing the track. I defend and feel for the keepers with having to deal with all the emotional based responses.

[hybrid25]

I played SB on a beautiful day last year. To me, the course was very impressive, even though I realized it was in its early stages of development. We enjoyed our time, a bunch of us higher handicap golfers, and never did we think we had a hard time holding the greens. One guy in our foursome shot a 78, I shot an 80, and the other two guys always shoot higher no matter what course they play on, lol. Although we are not golf course architect savvy, we were all impressed with the 'Stoatin Brae presentation'.

[odshot68]

On a side note, curious if the new south course Arcadia will be similar to conditions last year at SB? I heard they will also allow walking out there at the south track.

[kalamazoo]

******? I'm dealing with homers here. No, there are many folks that think FD is overrated (i guess not on here) and nobody is trying to get a rise. I guess maintenance level is over valued on here. If someone is playing a new course and paying over $100 for a green fee, they should wait 3 years until playing the track. I defend and feel for the keepers with having to deal with all the emotional based responses.

 

So you’re going to wait 3 years to play Arcadia South Course?

 

I’m headed there this fall and now I’m VERY curious to see if the greens are concrete trampolines like SB was last year. Now that you’ve so graciously educated us about thatch layers I know that Arcadia South won’t have one and every green will be concrete, because green firmness apparently has everything to do with thatch layers and nothing to do with water...for the first 3 years.

[ckates7]

On a side note, curious if the new south course Arcadia will be similar to conditions last year at SB? I heard they will also allow walking out there at the south track.

 

I’ve got a tee time set for September 2nd, and will try to give a detailed/picture oriented review. However, I’m sure there will be others doing the same with an earlier opportunity than I.

[kalamazoo]

And for the record, Stoatin Brae is my home course and I love the golf course. I also know the maintenance crew and they wouldn’t take any of this personally, they knew how firm the course was last year. When I’m discussing the conditions of the course I’m not bashing the course, I’m trying to let people know the current conditions because many have not played it yet and I play there weekly. The Michigan-related threads are a community and we try to help each other out. If I was paying top dollar for a new course on the other side of the state I’d appreciate knowing the conditions before I made the trip. These discussions are not knocks to the maintenance crew, they’re simply facts. It’s a wonderful course that is experiencing a lot of growth and will continue to get better over time.

[TadWPJ]

******? I'm dealing with homers here. No, there are many folks that think FD is overrated (i guess not on here) and nobody is trying to get a rise. I guess maintenance level is over valued on here. If someone is playing a new course and paying over $100 for a green fee, they should wait 3 years until playing the track. I defend and feel for the keepers with having to deal with all the emotional based responses.

 

So you're going to wait 3 years to play Arcadia South Course?

 

I'm headed there this fall and now I'm VERY curious to see if the greens are concrete trampolines like SB was last year. Now that you've so graciously educated us about thatch layers I know that Arcadia South won't have one and every green will be concrete, because green firmness apparently has everything to do with thatch layers and nothing to do with water...for the first 3 years.

 

I have no desire to play ASC, I think Dana Fry is an ***hole and would never play any of his courses. SB maint budget is a lot smaller then AB/AS. The drier you keep greens, you don't have to worry about fungus's. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[TadWPJ]

And for the record, Stoatin Brae is my home course and I love the golf course. I also know the maintenance crew and they wouldn't take any of this personally, they knew how firm the course was last year. When I'm discussing the conditions of the course I'm not bashing the course, I'm trying to let people know the current conditions because many have not played it yet and I play there weekly. The Michigan-related threads are a community and we try to help each other out. If I was paying top dollar for a new course on the other side of the state I'd appreciate knowing the conditions before I made the trip. These discussions are not knocks to the maintenance crew, they're simply facts. It's a wonderful course that is experiencing a lot of growth and will continue to get better over time.

 

I called over there and it was $40 to walk during the week, is it $100 for weekend/holiday cartballing? It would be nice if people could focus on the course and not be so concerned about Conditions all the time. When I played the loop earlier this year with the keeper, who is a really nice guy/good person he said the loop was soft from the rain earlier in the day, we could still hit front of the greens and they would release and stay on. Normally he said you have to hit 10-25 yards short of the greens. The Loop's greens are very firm because of the low inputs on the greens, exposure to wind, and they prefer them really firm. It's nice a few courses in the state prefer firm conditions to the over-watered 99% of the other MI tracks

[Frohlich]

******? I'm dealing with homers here. No, there are many folks that think FD is overrated (i guess not on here) and nobody is trying to get a rise. I guess maintenance level is over valued on here. If someone is playing a new course and paying over $100 for a green fee, they should wait 3 years until playing the track. I defend and feel for the keepers with having to deal with all the emotional based responses.

 

So you're going to wait 3 years to play Arcadia South Course?

 

I'm headed there this fall and now I'm VERY curious to see if the greens are concrete trampolines like SB was last year. Now that you've so graciously educated us about thatch layers I know that Arcadia South won't have one and every green will be concrete, because green firmness apparently has everything to do with thatch layers and nothing to do with water...for the first 3 years.

 

I have no desire to play ASC, I think Dana Fry is an ***hole and would never play any of his courses. SB maint budget is a lot smaller then AB/AS. The drier you keep greens, you don't have to worry about fungus's. You are comparing apples to oranges.

And for the record, Stoatin Brae is my home course and I love the golf course. I also know the maintenance crew and they wouldn't take any of this personally, they knew how firm the course was last year. When I'm discussing the conditions of the course I'm not bashing the course, I'm trying to let people know the current conditions because many have not played it yet and I play there weekly. The Michigan-related threads are a community and we try to help each other out. If I was paying top dollar for a new course on the other side of the state I'd appreciate knowing the conditions before I made the trip. These discussions are not knocks to the maintenance crew, they're simply facts. It's a wonderful course that is experiencing a lot of growth and will continue to get better over time.

 

I called over there and it was $40 to walk during the week, is it $100 for weekend/holiday cartballing? It would be nice if people could focus on the course and not be so concerned about Conditions all the time. When I played the loop earlier this year with the keeper, who is a really nice guy/good person he said the loop was soft from the rain earlier in the day, we could still hit front of the greens and they would release and stay on. Normally he said you have to hit 10-25 yards short of the greens. The Loop's greens are very firm because of the low inputs on the greens, exposure to wind, and they prefer them really firm. It's nice a few courses in the state prefer firm conditions to the over-watered 99% of the other MI tracks

 

It would also be nice if you followed your own advice. How is calling the architect an a**&%^% have anything to do with how good or bad a course is...focus on the course and not the architect. There is a difference between teaching and preaching. I will let you decide how you come across on this forum.

[Jose c.]

Also have a early Sept tee a Arcadia South course very anixious about greens.

[HackerDave]

And for the record, Stoatin Brae is my home course and I love the golf course. I also know the maintenance crew and they wouldn't take any of this personally, they knew how firm the course was last year. When I'm discussing the conditions of the course I'm not bashing the course, I'm trying to let people know the current conditions because many have not played it yet and I play there weekly. The Michigan-related threads are a community and we try to help each other out. If I was paying top dollar for a new course on the other side of the state I'd appreciate knowing the conditions before I made the trip. These discussions are not knocks to the maintenance crew, they're simply facts. It's a wonderful course that is experiencing a lot of growth and will continue to get better over time.

 

Exactly. EVERY new green is going to be firm. Factor in very little rain and the cards were stacked against them last year. I hope things continue to improve over time. The greens left me a bit confused last year, and since it was a one time deal and I don't live there, I won't have time to try to figure it out.

[TadWPJ]

Open,

 

No condescending tone on my part in most of my posts. I just challenge people from time to time that make bold statements without experiencing a broad range of courses. So it took you how many posts to get this off your chest? Obviously others didn't know about the lack of thatch layer or they wouldn't of complained about excessive firmness... Nope, don't peddle fert..

 

Um, sorry, but your posts are condescending. "I just challenge people from time to time...." "Just try to educate...."

 

Your intention may not be so, but your posts do read as though you are holier than thou. The? Thy?

 

He gave you the benefit of the doubt, given that online doesn't allow for tone, and asked you questions in all seriousness, in order to see if it was the text format giving the wrong impression, or if you really were speaking as though you were deigning to lower yourself to speak to us deplorables.

 

Hacker Dave wrote the following after i posted about the lack of thatch layer.

 

"When we played it, the greens were like concrete. You couldn't hold the green coming in high or low. That's not golf. Maybe they are watering the greens better, but last year was very draught like and both the fairways and greens were rock hard. We all said they saved money by not buying topsoil or installing irrigation"

 

I'm not talking down, people should want to learn ''why" certain things are a way and not make emotional based statements. Not holier. You are reading too much into it. Banter is fun, but we have too many sensitive people now a days. Then you have people who haven't played many of the Top Michigan courses declaring Forest Dunes is the basically a top 3 course in the state. When someone challenges them, they get defensive.

 

"Can't we all just get along''??

 

And here we go again. "People should want to learn..."

 

Here's the thing, you're not challenging. You're saying they're too stupid to have an opinion. There's a few people in this thread who know a thing or two themselves. It's one thing to disagree, which people in this forum do quite a bit of; it's quite another to basically call them too uninformed to actually have an opinion, thus you are here to "educate them."

 

As far as getting along, a number of guys in the ATMG thread play a lot of golf together. I know of some who have hosted other posters at their house, and I can assure you, guys don't back off their opinion just so they can be friends. But they disagree with the opinion, they don't question the intelligence of the person with the opinion.

 

"Maybe they are watering the greens better" "We all said they saved money by not buying topsoil or installing irrigation"

Those comments made by Hacker Dave are very condescending to the maintenance staff, Archies, owners at SB imo. Not only are they condescending they are ignorant. When someone makes such blatant ignorant comments, I'll get abrasive and condescending with them. I've hosted a person on this Midwest forum at 1 or 2 of my gatherings and know how the golf world works.

[TadWPJ]

I called over there and it was $40 to walk during the week, is it $100 for weekend/holiday cartballing? It would be nice if people could focus on the course and not be so concerned about Conditions all the time. When I played the loop earlier this year with the keeper, who is a really nice guy/good person he said the loop was soft from the rain earlier in the day, we could still hit front of the greens and they would release and stay on. Normally he said you have to hit 10-25 yards short of the greens. The Loop's greens are very firm because of the low inputs on the greens, exposure to wind, and they prefer them really firm. It's nice a few courses in the state prefer firm conditions to the over-watered 99% of the other MI tracks

 

 

It would also be nice if you followed your own advice. How is calling the architect an a**&%^% have anything to do with how good or bad a course is...focus on the course and not the architect. There is a difference between teaching and preaching. I will let you decide how you come across on this forum.

 

Kzoo asked me if I was going to wait 3 years. I have no desire to play AB or ABS, not my thing. The maintenance budget at ABS will be 2-3 times what SB is. You mean to tell me that if a restaurant owner you met was an a******, you would eat at his/her restaurant? You don't like my posts, don't read em...

[chickenpotpie]

Sure glad SB has improved. I brought 4 groups out last fall and to a guy we had no idea what we were supposed to do. High shots wouldn’t stick, and low bump and runs would stick in the fairways before reaching the green. Reminded me of winter golf when the greens are frozen, and you basically have to play to land your approach short of the green and putt from off the green. If that’s “links golf” I’m out.

[knickerbocker]

[HackerDave]

Open,

 

No condescending tone on my part in most of my posts. I just challenge people from time to time that make bold statements without experiencing a broad range of courses. So it took you how many posts to get this off your chest? Obviously others didn't know about the lack of thatch layer or they wouldn't of complained about excessive firmness... Nope, don't peddle fert..

 

Um, sorry, but your posts are condescending. "I just challenge people from time to time...." "Just try to educate...."

 

Your intention may not be so, but your posts do read as though you are holier than thou. The? Thy?

 

He gave you the benefit of the doubt, given that online doesn't allow for tone, and asked you questions in all seriousness, in order to see if it was the text format giving the wrong impression, or if you really were speaking as though you were deigning to lower yourself to speak to us deplorables.

 

Hacker Dave wrote the following after i posted about the lack of thatch layer.

 

"When we played it, the greens were like concrete. You couldn't hold the green coming in high or low. That's not golf. Maybe they are watering the greens better, but last year was very draught like and both the fairways and greens were rock hard. We all said they saved money by not buying topsoil or installing irrigation"

 

I'm not talking down, people should want to learn ''why" certain things are a way and not make emotional based statements. Not holier. You are reading too much into it. Banter is fun, but we have too many sensitive people now a days. Then you have people who haven't played many of the Top Michigan courses declaring Forest Dunes is the basically a top 3 course in the state. When someone challenges them, they get defensive.

 

"Can't we all just get along''??

 

And here we go again. "People should want to learn..."

 

Here's the thing, you're not challenging. You're saying they're too stupid to have an opinion. There's a few people in this thread who know a thing or two themselves. It's one thing to disagree, which people in this forum do quite a bit of; it's quite another to basically call them too uninformed to actually have an opinion, thus you are here to "educate them."

 

As far as getting along, a number of guys in the ATMG thread play a lot of golf together. I know of some who have hosted other posters at their house, and I can assure you, guys don't back off their opinion just so they can be friends. But they disagree with the opinion, they don't question the intelligence of the person with the opinion.

 

"Maybe they are watering the greens better" "We all said they saved money by not buying topsoil or installing irrigation"

Those comments made by Hacker Dave are very condescending to the maintenance staff, Archies, owners at SB imo. Not only are they condescending they are ignorant. When someone makes such blatant ignorant comments, I'll get abrasive and condescending with them. I've hosted a person on this Midwest forum at 1 or 2 of my gatherings and know how the golf world works.

 

You're a real charmer. Don't know who you are, but I'm good with that.

[HackerDave]

Sure glad SB has improved. I brought 4 groups out last fall and to a guy we had no idea what we were supposed to do. High shots wouldn't stick, and low bump and runs would stick in the fairways before reaching the green. Reminded me of winter golf when the greens are frozen, and you basically have to play to land your approach short of the green and putt from off the green. If that's "links golf" I'm out.

 

Our group had the same experience. Guess none of us know anything about golf. :-)

[hybrid25]

Sure glad SB has improved. I brought 4 groups out last fall and to a guy we had no idea what we were supposed to do. High shots wouldn't stick, and low bump and runs would stick in the fairways before reaching the green. Reminded me of winter golf when the greens are frozen, and you basically have to play to land your approach short of the green and putt from off the green. If that's "links golf" I'm out.

 

Our group had the same experience. Guess none of us know anything about golf. :-)

our group of higher handicap golfers thought the course was not that difficult at all. We scored well under what are handicap would suggest and found the greens a bit quick but quite playable. Some people have a difficult time going out of their comfort zone and have a hard time adapting to different conditions. Diversity is a spice of life oh, and on the golf course as well.

[HackerDave]

Sure glad SB has improved. I brought 4 groups out last fall and to a guy we had no idea what we were supposed to do. High shots wouldn't stick, and low bump and runs would stick in the fairways before reaching the green. Reminded me of winter golf when the greens are frozen, and you basically have to play to land your approach short of the green and putt from off the green. If that's "links golf" I'm out.

 

Our group had the same experience. Guess none of us know anything about golf. :-)

our group of higher handicap golfers thought the course was not that difficult at all. We scored well under what are handicap would suggest and found the greens a bit quick but quite playable. Some people have a difficult time going out of their comfort zone and have a hard time adapting to different conditions. Diversity is a spice of life oh, and on the golf course as well.

 

LOL! That must be it!

[glenk69]

Getting ready to play Stoatin Brae on Monday, can't wait. Thanks kalamazoo for all of your great tips on playing this course.

 

Also, wanted to correct something that someone said on here about the course's greens getting better in a few years, "when they get some thatch." This is completely incorrect, courses work very hard to remove the thatch from greens (hopefully fairways too) because thatch adds bounciness and make it tougher for shots to hold the green. If Stoatin Brae's young greens are struggling to hold shots, because they are too firm, adding thatch will make them softer - but bouncier - and they won't hold shots any better. The only way you can improve the receptiveness of greens is to add sand (either through aerating or just setting it on top, which you'll see at most well maintained courses) and/or water. Properly built new greens are 1/3 to 1/2 sand and the rest organic matter (usually peat moss or spaghum when built). Courses add sand to keep this mixture in proper proportion, because at this mix greens are receptive, smooth and allow grass to continually grow. If thatch is left on the green, it decomposes and adds too much organic matter to the mix - creating "dirty" greens that also tend to be bouncy and not hold shots. This is not something you need to be in the fertilizer bus to understand - just read some basic books on golf architecture. And just look at the greens you play, greens that are aerated frequently and get sand added play better. Courses that are not taken care of (de-thatching, aerating, etc.) tend to have bouncy greens that don't hold well.

[TadWPJ]

Getting ready to play Stoatin Brae on Monday, can't wait. Thanks kalamazoo for all of your great tips on playing this course.

 

Also, wanted to correct something that someone said on here about the course's greens getting better in a few years, "when they get some thatch." This is completely incorrect, courses work very hard to remove the thatch from greens (hopefully fairways too) because thatch adds bounciness and make it tougher for shots to hold the green. If Stoatin Brae's young greens are struggling to hold shots, because they are too firm, adding thatch will make them softer - but bouncier - and they won't hold shots any better. The only way you can improve the receptiveness of greens is to add sand (either through aerating or just setting it on top, which you'll see at most well maintained courses) and/or water. Properly built new greens are 1/3 to 1/2 sand and the rest organic matter (usually peat moss or spaghum when built). Courses add sand to keep this mixture in proper proportion, because at this mix greens are receptive, smooth and allow grass to continually grow. If thatch is left on the green, it decomposes and adds too much organic matter to the mix - creating "dirty" greens that also tend to be bouncy and not hold shots. This is not something you need to be in the fertilizer bus to understand - just read some basic books on golf architecture. And just look at the greens you play, greens that are aerated frequently and get sand added play better. Courses that are not taken care of (de-thatching, aerating, etc.) tend to have bouncy greens that don't hold well.

 

There is no thatch in a green the first year and thatch then increases. Managing thatch is something keepers do by decreasing organic build up once greens are established. Nice try with the gotcha moment. You even stated greens without thatch will be hard. Then u go to other extreme with excessive thatch on established greens. I'd bet they are using lower fert levels and keeping greens dryer. Many places are dryjecting greens now instead of aerating, putts great after. Properly build greens use variable green mix rate with relation to slope. Go take some truf classes and work golf construction and get back to me before u correct me.

[golfortennis]

Getting ready to play Stoatin Brae on Monday, can't wait. Thanks kalamazoo for all of your great tips on playing this course.

 

Also, wanted to correct something that someone said on here about the course's greens getting better in a few years, "when they get some thatch." This is completely incorrect, courses work very hard to remove the thatch from greens (hopefully fairways too) because thatch adds bounciness and make it tougher for shots to hold the green. If Stoatin Brae's young greens are struggling to hold shots, because they are too firm, adding thatch will make them softer - but bouncier - and they won't hold shots any better. The only way you can improve the receptiveness of greens is to add sand (either through aerating or just setting it on top, which you'll see at most well maintained courses) and/or water. Properly built new greens are 1/3 to 1/2 sand and the rest organic matter (usually peat moss or spaghum when built). Courses add sand to keep this mixture in proper proportion, because at this mix greens are receptive, smooth and allow grass to continually grow. If thatch is left on the green, it decomposes and adds too much organic matter to the mix - creating "dirty" greens that also tend to be bouncy and not hold shots. This is not something you need to be in the fertilizer bus to understand - just read some basic books on golf architecture. And just look at the greens you play, greens that are aerated frequently and get sand added play better. Courses that are not taken care of (de-thatching, aerating, etc.) tend to have bouncy greens that don't hold well.

 

Good grief. You must be new here. I'll fill you in on the rules. TadWPJ is smarter than you. He's smarter than me. He's smarter than the rest of us. Don't ask us. He'll tell you. And if ever something proved the saying "It's on the internet so it must be true," there it is.

[glenk69]

Getting ready to play Stoatin Brae on Monday, can't wait. Thanks kalamazoo for all of your great tips on playing this course.

 

Also, wanted to correct something that someone said on here about the course's greens getting better in a few years, "when they get some thatch." This is completely incorrect, courses work very hard to remove the thatch from greens (hopefully fairways too) because thatch adds bounciness and make it tougher for shots to hold the green. If Stoatin Brae's young greens are struggling to hold shots, because they are too firm, adding thatch will make them softer - but bouncier - and they won't hold shots any better. The only way you can improve the receptiveness of greens is to add sand (either through aerating or just setting it on top, which you'll see at most well maintained courses) and/or water. Properly built new greens are 1/3 to 1/2 sand and the rest organic matter (usually peat moss or spaghum when built). Courses add sand to keep this mixture in proper proportion, because at this mix greens are receptive, smooth and allow grass to continually grow. If thatch is left on the green, it decomposes and adds too much organic matter to the mix - creating "dirty" greens that also tend to be bouncy and not hold shots. This is not something you need to be in the fertilizer bus to understand - just read some basic books on golf architecture. And just look at the greens you play, greens that are aerated frequently and get sand added play better. Courses that are not taken care of (de-thatching, aerating, etc.) tend to have bouncy greens that don't hold well.

 

There is no thatch in a green the first year and thatch then increases. Managing thatch is something keepers do by decreasing organic build up once greens are established. Nice try with the gotcha moment. You even stated greens without thatch will be hard. Then u go to other extreme with excessive thatch on established greens. I'd bet they are using lower fert levels and keeping greens dryer. Many places are dryjecting greens now instead of aerating, putts great after. Properly build greens use variable green mix rate with relation to slope. Go take some truf classes and work golf construction and get back to me before u correct me.

 

Don't want to take classes, I'm not a greenskeeper - just a golfer - who's played golf for a while. Thanks for backing up my statement, with your industry knowledge. Will report back how my round at Stotin Brae goes on Monday.

[HackerDave]

Have a great round and let us know what you think.

[kalamazoo]

Getting ready to play Stoatin Brae on Monday, can't wait. Thanks kalamazoo for all of your great tips on playing this course.

 

Also, wanted to correct something that someone said on here about the course's greens getting better in a few years, "when they get some thatch." This is completely incorrect, courses work very hard to remove the thatch from greens (hopefully fairways too) because thatch adds bounciness and make it tougher for shots to hold the green. If Stoatin Brae's young greens are struggling to hold shots, because they are too firm, adding thatch will make them softer - but bouncier - and they won't hold shots any better. The only way you can improve the receptiveness of greens is to add sand (either through aerating or just setting it on top, which you'll see at most well maintained courses) and/or water. Properly built new greens are 1/3 to 1/2 sand and the rest organic matter (usually peat moss or spaghum when built). Courses add sand to keep this mixture in proper proportion, because at this mix greens are receptive, smooth and allow grass to continually grow. If thatch is left on the green, it decomposes and adds too much organic matter to the mix - creating "dirty" greens that also tend to be bouncy and not hold shots. This is not something you need to be in the fertilizer bus to understand - just read some basic books on golf architecture. And just look at the greens you play, greens that are aerated frequently and get sand added play better. Courses that are not taken care of (de-thatching, aerating, etc.) tend to have bouncy greens that don't hold well.

 

? Enjoy your round! I played it today and the pin locations ate my lunch but we had a great time.