USGA Proposes to Modernize Rules of Golf

[North Butte]

To be precise, the flagstick has been shown in tests to help a too-fast putt stay in VERY SLIGHTLY more often than it gets in the way of a putt that would have gone in without the flagstick.

 

In the real world the size of that effect is minuscule and only measurable over a large number of trials.

 

You do not have to worry about anyone's handicap going down if they start leaving the stick in constantly.

 

What research are you referencing ?

 

http://www.golf.com/...ion/flag-or-out

 

and

Short game guru Dave Pelz published his research on this in Golf Magazine (1990’s). After he had a machine and a golfer hit a total of ten thousand putts off the green, his researched found that:

• Machine made 33% more putts
  
• Man made 18% more putts
  

With the flagstick left ‘IN’ the hole.

 

DavePelz, the mad scientist of golf, researched the effects of the flagstick on balls approaching the hole. He finally set the record straight, "Leave the flagstick in whenever the Rules allow, unless it is leaning so far toward you that the ball can't fit."

unless it is leaning so far toward you that the ball can't fit."

However, a ball hitting the flagstick will always finish nearer than it would had it missed. No stats needed, laws of physics apply.

 

I gave away my Pelz books years ago but did not recall his findings being so extreme. I do remember that a few years later a different study of the same question found very small, fraction of a percent, advantages to having it in. But I do not have the citation or recall the source.

 

Just a thought. If it didn't help, why would the current rules require you to remove it?

 

For the same reason anchored putting was banned!

[Hawkeye77]

Just a thought. If it didn't help, why would the current rules require you to remove it?

 

Maybe to be consistent and not having it go in and out several times depending on preferences of each person in a group of players.

Could be pace of play and related to perception it helps in some situations. Or maybe just idea you don't want something other than the stroke influencing the outcome.

[towncryer]

I can't possibly read everything on here, but one thing I'm taking issue with is the defense of Stroke and Distance for OB, especially as it pertains to the spirit of the game and the Principles Behind the Rules of Golf. I'm personally torn on the issue. I 100% get why stroke and distance is appropriate for hitting your ball off the course's property...you hit a really bad shot. But you can hit even worse shots on some parts of the course and get away with them. There doesn't seem to be equity there (and equity is a big thing with rules types).

 

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

[Wooderson]

Regarding the flag stick, will it be equitable to all? If so, then why care if they allow it.

[Newby]

I 100% get why stroke and distance is appropriate for hitting your ball off the course's property...you hit a really bad shot. But you can hit even worse shots on some parts of the course and get away with them. There doesn't seem to be equity there (and equity is a big thing with rules types).

 

Equity in golf is about like situations being treated alike. Hitting a ball off course is not like hitting the ball somewhere on the course, however well or badly you hit it.

[Vindog]

I can't possibly read everything on here, but one thing I'm taking issue with is the defense of Stroke and Distance for OB, especially as it pertains to the spirit of the game and the Principles Behind the Rules of Golf. I'm personally torn on the issue. I 100% get why stroke and distance is appropriate for hitting your ball off the course's property...you hit a really bad shot. But you can hit even worse shots on some parts of the course and get away with them. There doesn't seem to be equity there (and equity is a big thing with rules types).

 

 

It boils down to definitions. If you are thinking about Water Hazards, you can play out of them if the lie permits of course, so they are actually still part of the course where it is possible to play the ball continuously from tee to green. Whereas OB is not part of the course at all.

[Roadking2003]

To be precise, the flagstick has been shown in tests to help a too-fast putt stay in VERY SLIGHTLY more often than it gets in the way of a putt that would have gone in without the flagstick.

 

In the real world the size of that effect is minuscule and only measurable over a large number of trials.

 

You do not have to worry about anyone's handicap going down if they start leaving the stick in constantly.

 

This is true. Also, if I'm one inch off the green why should that matter?

[Roadking2003]

Regarding the flag stick, will it be equitable to all? If so, then why care if they allow it.

 

Exactly!

[Seamus_McDuff]

I'd be fine doing away with stroke and distance for OB, but the white line must remain. You have to differentiate between when a ball is still playable(penalty area) and when a drop must be taken(OB).

[Newby]

It is possible to equate finding a reference point for a ball crossing a red/yellow line with a ball crossing a white line.

But how do you do that for a ball that cannot be found but is probably on the course somewhere?.

[nsxguy]

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

[North Butte]

Regardless of the desirability (or IMO lack of desirability) of letting the golfer off the hook for OB shots and lost balls, there is a certain understandable conservatism in play in any Rules changes. Note that nothing on the proposed list is going to result in golfers overnight shooting lower scores. There's no wholesale downgrading of the penalties associated with frequent occurrences.

 

The proposed changes are procedural and/or apply on in unusual circumstances. If they were put into effect tomorrow, none of us are going to go out and shoot a better score this weekend because of those different ways of dropping the ball, leaving the stick in or moving stones out of a bunker.

 

But you lot are advocating for changes that (assuming you are playing under the Rules in the first place, which is often doubtful) are simply going to eliminate two or three or who knows how many strokes from your score if you're prone to losing balls and/or hitting them OB.

 

There is no constituency or sentiment in the USGA/R&A for wholesale making scores lower. And let's be honest, that's the main complaint about lost and OB balls. Some people can have mul;tiple of those in a round and they basically cost two strokes a time. The primary driver for this constant "Change the OB Rule" refrain is people wanting to see a lower score on their card than they do now.

[towncryer]

I 100% get why stroke and distance is appropriate for hitting your ball off the course's property...you hit a really bad shot. But you can hit even worse shots on some parts of the course and get away with them. There doesn't seem to be equity there (and equity is a big thing with rules types).

 

Equity in golf is about like situations being treated alike. Hitting a ball off course is not like hitting the ball somewhere on the course, however well or badly you hit it.

 

If my use of the word "equity" is the only thing you have a problem with that post, I'm going to take it as a good thing. You seem to know your stuff.

 

That aside...how would you feel about a drop and 2 strokes for OB with no option to play from OB? Then, you have a stiffer penalty for OB (off the course) than hazard (on the course), but you don't have the provisional shot (which slows down play compared to dropping).

 

Here's the issue...almost nobody recreationally plays OB as it is supposed to be played. They drop like a lateral, take one stroke, and high five their buddies when they shoot their best score ever. If the rules was changed either a two stroke penalty and a drop like a lateral OR hitting three from the tee, I would be satisfied that the two situations (lateral hazard v. OB) are still treated differently but without the obligatory re-tee for three.

 

Just thinking out loud.

[North Butte]

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

 

It's a more general category of stroke-limited games than Stableford and enables a Stableford-like game to be played without having a handicap and/or without allocating handicap strokes to specific holes as is required in Stableford.

 

The guys I play with do a "points" game that is basically Gross Stableford points with the handicap strokes added on later. Not all of them but for a vocal minority, asking them to keep track of what holes their handicap strokes fall so that you can play real Stableford is akin to asking them to fill out income tax forms or compute the cube root of 14.

[ratspros]

Regarding the flag stick, will it be equitable to all? If so, then why care if they allow it.

 

Because it will slow down play. Inevitably there will be people that always want it in and some that always want it out. Every hole it will be in, out, in, out.

 

secondly we already have enough threads on here about flagstick etiquette, who picks up, to lay clubs on or not, just imagine the berth of countless more useless threads because Jimmy lost his wedge since he layed it on the flagstick but when Peter put it back in so Sally could putt with it in and then pulled it again so Dianne could putt silly Peter put it in a new spot and Jimmys wedges were left behind and not noticed they were missing until his next round. Peter also started a thread about how rude Jimmy was for laying his clubs on the flagstick. Sally started a thread about Dianne's slow play as she wouldn't read her putt until the flagstick was out and it was her turn to putt. Dianne started a thread because she wanted to get ready to putt but new she couldn't because she had to get the flagstick and putt it back in for Peter after Jimmy putted.

 

Yup this rule change is just going to be smooth as silk.

[towncryer]

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

 

No, I understood it perfectly, thank you very much. The new form would be acceptable in tournaments (nowhere near the elite amateur level, but still...). Just think about it...you're in a junior golf stroke play tournament. You're playing with a kid who melts down on one hole and puts up a nice tidy 12 on a par 5, but the maximum score is capped at double par. He ends up beating you by 1. Sound good?

[North Butte]

Here's the issue...almost nobody recreationally plays OB as it is supposed to be played. They drop like a lateral, take one stroke, and high five their buddies when they shoot their best score ever. If the rules was changed either a two stroke penalty and a drop like a lateral OR hitting three from the tee, I would be satisfied that the two situations (lateral hazard v. OB) are still treated differently but without the obligatory re-tee for three.

 

But that's a non-issue. If people are happily ignoring the penalties for OB and lost balls, then they do not need the Rules changed. Changing the Rules to accommodate every watered-down version of the game played by foursomes every weekend would be an endless task.

 

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

 

No, I understood it perfectly, thank you very much. The new form would be acceptable in tournaments (nowhere near the elite amateur level, but still...). Just think about it...you're in a junior golf stroke play tournament. You're playing with a kid who melts down on one hole and puts up a nice tidy 12 on a par 5, but the maximum score is capped at double par. He beats you by 1. Sound good?

 

It sounds better than standing around with my thumb up my nether regions while he hacks around to make his 12.

[towncryer]

Here's the issue...almost nobody recreationally plays OB as it is supposed to be played. They drop like a lateral, take one stroke, and high five their buddies when they shoot their best score ever. If the rules was changed either a two stroke penalty and a drop like a lateral OR hitting three from the tee, I would be satisfied that the two situations (lateral hazard v. OB) are still treated differently but without the obligatory re-tee for three.

 

But that's a non-issue. If people are happily ignoring the penalties for OB and lost balls, then they do not need the Rules changed. Changing the Rules to accommodate every watered-down version of the game played by foursomes every weekend would be an endless task.

 

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

 

No, I understood it perfectly, thank you very much. The new form would be acceptable in tournaments (nowhere near the elite amateur level, but still...). Just think about it...you're in a junior golf stroke play tournament. You're playing with a kid who melts down on one hole and puts up a nice tidy 12 on a par 5, but the maximum score is capped at double par. He beats you by 1. Sound good?

 

It sounds better than standing around with my thumb up my nether regions while he hacks around to make his 12.

 

Where you put your thumb is your problem, not the USGA's. :) What is unclear about this proposed rule is if you have to hole out or not. In the scenario above, maybe homeboy is lying 9 and hits his 10th into a bunker. He can pick up and take 10, when there's no possible way he'd have scored better than 11.

[towncryer]

As far as the non-issue comment is concerned, fair enough. Just because people don't play the right way doesn't mean the USGA needs to bend to how they do play it. I'd argue pace of play on dropping and adding two for OB. Hitting another off the tee does adds and additional 1/4 of a foursome's total time on the tee box.

[North Butte]

Where you put your thumb is your problem, not the USGA's. :) What is unclear about this proposed rule is if you have to hole out or not. In the scenario above, maybe homeboy is lying 9 and hits his 10th into a bunker. He can pick up and take 10, when there's no possible way he'd have scored better than 11.

 

Not unclear at all.

 

In match play, when a player feels it is impossible for him to win the hole he says "I concede, your hole", puts the ball in his pocket and they move to the next hole.

 

In Stableford, when a player feels it is impossible for him to score any points, he says "I'll take the zero", puts the ball in his pocket and waits for the rest of the group to finish.

 

In a "double par" or other stroke-limited game, when a player feels it is impossible to make better than the limit he says "I'll take the limit", puts the ball in his pocket and waits for the rest of the group to finish.

[nsxguy]

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

 

No, I understood it perfectly, thank you very much. The new form would be acceptable in tournaments (nowhere near the elite amateur level, but still...). Just think about it...you're in a junior golf stroke play tournament. You're playing with a kid who melts down on one hole and puts up a nice tidy 12 on a par 5, but the maximum score is capped at double par. He ends up beating you by 1. Sound good?

 

OK, so you don't care for Stableford either then. And probably no other form of "fun" golf. No worries, don't play in it. "Problem" solved.

[Vindog]

The tie breaker can be which ever player takes the least # of max scores wins!!

[North Butte]

BTW. this is again a case of them trying to codify in the Rules something that is absolutely common and widespread in practice. In my experience the most commonly played form of golf in USA is a stroke-limited game called "ESC limit". Everybody I play with continues a hole, no matter whether it is match play or "points" or just a casual round, until they hit the ESC limit for that hole. Then they pick up ninety-nine times out of a hundred.

 

USGA/R&A is simply putting into the Rules a description of the general category which has Stableford and "ESC limit" as specific examples.

[towncryer]

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

 

No, I understood it perfectly, thank you very much. The new form would be acceptable in tournaments (nowhere near the elite amateur level, but still...). Just think about it...you're in a junior golf stroke play tournament. You're playing with a kid who melts down on one hole and puts up a nice tidy 12 on a par 5, but the maximum score is capped at double par. He ends up beating you by 1. Sound good?

 

OK, so you don't care for Stableford either then. And probably no other form of "fun" golf. No worries, don't play in it. "Problem" solved.

 

Ah, the old putting words in the mouth of the person you're having a conversation with. An internet staple...hat is off to you for that ingenious rhetorical device.

 

I love Stableford. I love Match Play. I love Stroke Play. What I don't love is taking Stroke Play and turning it into a less painful experience in competitions. I'm not talking about recreational rounds with buddies when I oppose a score maximum. I'm talking about competition. If you're not playing in a tournament, play whatever you want. I often bend the rules with friends when we're out playing...I just don't post scores where I do.

 

Stroke Play, to me, is getting the ball in the hole and seeing how many it took. That's all.

[towncryer]

BTW. this is again a case of them trying to codify in the Rules something that is absolutely common and widespread in practice. In my experience the most commonly played form of golf in USA is a stroke-limited game called "ESC limit". Everybody I play with continues a hole, no matter whether it is match play or "points" or just a casual round, until they hit the ESC limit for that hole. Then they pick up ninety-nine times out of a hundred.

 

USGA/R&A is simply putting into the Rules a description of the general category which has Stableford and "ESC limit" as specific examples.

 

I'm fine with that form of stroke-limit golf except for in competitions. 100%. Unless it unduly delays my group, I finish the hole and record the score I took. Then I adjust ESC when I post for handicap. If me finishing the hole is going to slow down my group, it's ball in pocket time.

[nsxguy]

I think that a stroke limit in stroke play flies in the face of the spirit of the game just as much playing OB as a lateral, and the USGA has budged on it. In fact, let's look at Tuft's two great principles. 1. Play the course as you find it, 2. From tee to hole. "The second great principle of golf is that you put your ball in play at the start of the hole, play only your own ball, and do not touch it until you lift it from the hole" (Tufts 11). So...stroke limits that cause you to pick up your ball and quit the hole AND record a score that can count in stroke play competition seems way off to me (I know that "elite" competition won't use this rule, but junior golf, high school golf, club play, etc...). I know that you have a calculated stroke limit for ESC and handicapping purposes, but in a stroke play competition if someone is well on their way to 10 or 11 on a hole and they can pick up and take less...seems pretty flagrantly against protecting the field. It seems as off as allowing OB to be played like a lateral hazard. I could go on (moving loose impediments in a penalty area is in conflict with principle 1...you shouldn't be in the penalty area...it should be difficult to get out).

 

Perhaps you misread about the "Maximum score" ? Or it just isn't very clear ?

 

New rule: A new “Maximum Score” form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

 

Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.

 

 

So it appears it's a new FORM of stroke play,,,,,,, only slightly different from Stableford.

 

No, I understood it perfectly, thank you very much. The new form would be acceptable in tournaments (nowhere near the elite amateur level, but still...). Just think about it...you're in a junior golf stroke play tournament. You're playing with a kid who melts down on one hole and puts up a nice tidy 12 on a par 5, but the maximum score is capped at double par. He ends up beating you by 1. Sound good?

 

OK, so you don't care for Stableford either then. And probably no other form of "fun" golf. No worries, don't play in it. "Problem" solved.

 

Ah, the old putting words in the mouth of the person you're having a conversation with. An internet staple...hat is off to you for that ingenious rhetorical device.

 

I love Stableford. I love Match Play. I love Stroke Play. What I don't love is taking Stroke Play and turning it into a less painful experience in competitions.

 

Not putting words in your mouth, just making assumptions from your "thoughts". I apologize for making an incorrect(?) assumption.

 

But you say you "love Stableford" yet you "don't love taking stroke play and turning it into a less painful experience".

 

Yet that is exactly what Stableford does. Or am I mistaken ? Again ?

[North Butte]

But seriously, don't enter those competitions.

 

At my club in the UK some of the guys, especially some of the older guys, really don't like playing in the medals. On a fairly punishing course, playing from the way-back tees and keeping a medal card can be a real trudge for a guy who only hits the ball 220 yards.

 

So generally there are several Stableford comps and just one medal comp per month. Those guys enter the medal because it's just the thing to do but they would not be at all happy out there every Saturday with card and pencil in hand searching the knee-deep hoping to stumble across their fourth lost ball of the round.

[Seamus_McDuff]

Regardless of the desirability (or IMO lack of desirability) of letting the golfer off the hook for OB shots and lost balls, there is a certain understandable conservatism in play in any Rules changes. Note that nothing on the proposed list is going to result in golfers overnight shooting lower scores. There's no wholesale downgrading of the penalties associated with frequent occurrences.

 

The proposed changes are procedural and/or apply on in unusual circumstances. If they were put into effect tomorrow, none of us are going to go out and shoot a better score this weekend because of those different ways of dropping the ball, leaving the stick in or moving stones out of a bunker.

 

But you lot are advocating for changes that (assuming you are playing under the Rules in the first place, which is often doubtful) are simply going to eliminate two or three or who knows how many strokes from your score if you're prone to losing balls and/or hitting them OB.

 

There is no constituency or sentiment in the USGA/R&A for wholesale making scores lower. And let's be honest, that's the main complaint about lost and OB balls. Some people can have mul;tiple of those in a round and they basically cost two strokes a time. The primary driver for this constant "Change the OB Rule" refrain is people wanting to see a lower score on their card than they do now.

 

I think the new concept of being able to mark different areas as "penalty areas" will lower scores for some. What may have been a stroke and distance lost ball in high grass will now be a drop where it last crossed.

[towncryer]

 

Not putting words in your mouth, just making assumptions from your "thoughts". I apologize for making an incorrect(?) assumption.

 

But you say you "love Stableford" yet you "don't love taking stroke play and turning it into a less painful experience".

 

Yet that is exactly what Stableford does. Or am I mistaken ? Again ?

 

I'm just having fun...no apologies necessary! I am sorry for the snark.

 

No, you're not mistaken at all. But if that's what Stableford does (and I believe it does), why do we need a new category of Stroke Play?

[towncryer]

But seriously, don't enter those competitions.

 

At my club in the UK some of the guys, especially some of the older guys, really don't like playing in the medals. On a fairly punishing course, playing from the way-back tees and keeping a medal card can be a real trudge for a guy who only hits the ball 220 yards.

 

So generally there are several Stableford comps and just one medal comp per month. Those guys enter the medal because it's just the thing to do but they would not be at all happy out there every Saturday with card and pencil in hand searching the knee-deep hoping to stumble across their fourth lost ball of the round.

 

Again...if we already have Stabelford comps for people who don't want to trudge through medal play, why do we need a new system of Stroke Play?