Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[smashdn]

Suggestions for preventing or mitigating winter-kill of bermuda and zoysia in fairways? My understanding is if we get snow and it thaws on the fairways and the water starts to run off but freezes in the night it will zap the roots and create large winter-kill patches where there are drains. Balls behave similarly to water in that they tend to end up in the lowest spots so inevitably we hit from the bare patches in spring at green-up.

 

 

Next, bent greens, what kind of watering regimen could be employed to promote deep roots? I get the "infrequent watering" plan but what does that mean exactly and how long would it take to see results?

 

Some of the worst conditions we can see here are hot and humid or hot and rainy. A combination of heat that stresses the bent and then overwatering, whether perpetrated by Ma Nature or having to wet the greens during the day to keep them from burning up.

 

^These are the two biggest conditioning issues I see around here.

[augustgolf]

Suggestions for preventing or mitigating winter-kill of bermuda and zoysia in fairways? My understanding is if we get snow and it thaws on the fairways and the water starts to run off but freezes in the night it will zap the roots and create large winter-kill patches where there are drains. Balls behave similarly to water in that they tend to end up in the lowest spots so inevitably we hit from the bare patches in spring at green-up.

 

 

Next, bent greens, what kind of watering regimen could be employed to promote deep roots? I get the "infrequent watering" plan but what does that mean exactly and how long would it take to see results?

 

Some of the worst conditions we can see here are hot and humid or hot and rainy. A combination of heat that stresses the bent and then overwatering, whether perpetrated by Ma Nature or having to wet the greens during the day to keep them from burning up.

 

^These are the two biggest conditioning issues I see around here.

 

Not going to speak for BNGL, as he has much more experience than I do, but for your second question, re: the bent greens.

 

The best thing to do is to create the deepest root growth as soon as you possibly can.

 

I know from experience that people tend to overwater as grass begins to wake up in the spring. This keeps the roots nearer the surface to get their water source.

 

We have always tried to utilize a wetting agents to get the water to go deeper, and water less frequently. And, of course, promote the proper root development with the right fertilizer to stimulate healthy root growth.

 

Trying to keep the greens too green as soon as possible (unless you're applying straight iron) seems to not allow proper root growth. Also, keeping the leaf just a little longer for a bit more time doesn't hurt, either.

 

I've always had what the people who played my greens consider to be the best greens in the area, and with limited budgets, it is a source of pride to receive those comments.

 

But, as budgets shrink, it becomes much more difficult to provide healthy greens surfaces...always a lot of stress when the weather gets hot, humid, and still.

[BNGL]

Suggestions for preventing or mitigating winter-kill of bermuda and zoysia in fairways? My understanding is if we get snow and it thaws on the fairways and the water starts to run off but freezes in the night it will zap the roots and create large winter-kill patches where there are drains. Balls behave similarly to water in that they tend to end up in the lowest spots so inevitably we hit from the bare patches in spring at green-up.

 

 

Next, bent greens, what kind of watering regimen could be employed to promote deep roots? I get the "infrequent watering" plan but what does that mean exactly and how long would it take to see results?

 

Some of the worst conditions we can see here are hot and humid or hot and rainy. A combination of heat that stresses the bent and then overwatering, whether perpetrated by Ma Nature or having to wet the greens during the day to keep them from burning up.

 

^These are the two biggest conditioning issues I see around here.

 

You cannot prevent winter kill, try as we, the USGA, fert and chem companies, we just can't prevent it. We can take steps to minimize it, and have developed turf that is less susceptible to winter kill. Winter kill happens from one (or a combination) of things, ice suffocation, crown damage, outright low temps, or desiccation. Either of those alone can cause damage, but often it is a combination of these happenings that occur through out the winter months. There is no silver bullet cure, and I doubt that there will be. You can convert to more tolerant strains of bermuda turf, such as Latitude 36, Patriot, or Northbridge. You can also improve drainage from those areas, and reduce shade. The other big thing that I would suggest and implement if I was in a cold climate, would be proper fertilization in the fall before the plant shuts down. Think about a bear that hibernates, he stocks up on nutrients that he will need to sustain himself for the winter, I want to use the same idea for the plant. Pack it full of nutrients, so that it can make it through the winter, and ideally have a little left in the plant to wake up.

 

Unfortunately, "deep infrequent" watering is bs, it makes sense in theory but it is not practical at all. Temperatures in the canopy of a green can reach 135 easily, I can't not cool the plant off. So you need a mix of watering schedules. An afternoon syringe will just be a cooling for the plant to sustain respiration. Wetting agents are a huge tool for us, we use to maximize the penetration of water into the soil profile. But creating deeper roots is more from a cultural practices and proper fertilization rather than water use. You need to create space for the roots to grow, and allow for gas exchanges, and fertilizer apps that focus less on color and appearance and more on playability. Water is a factor, but it is my opinion that those other two methods are more effective. It might be right for someone else and another property, but I am going to propagate root maturation with the latter methods.

[BNGL]

If I remember correctly we use Trimmit (?) to control Poa, which is not what's is designed for but if you spray it often it seems to regulate if not kill the Poa

Aussie question here. Most of the courses around me use bent grass greens, but I've noticed recently (just finishing up winter down here) that a lot of courses have significant poa invasions on the greens. Would you consider this a problem? If so, whats a decent solution to get rid of the poa?

 

It is up to the individual courses, personally yes I would because if I had an established surface and poa was encroaching I would do everything I could to get rid of it, unless I knew I was transitioning to poa greens, which are perfectly fine putting surfaces. One thing a lot of people don't know or realize is that a weed is merely an undesirable plant in an area of cultivated plants. So that could be a rose bush in the middle of your yard.

 

There are two ways to treat it, pre or post emergent. Is either one better? up to the course, is either significantly cheaper? Depends on how bad the weed pressure is. Pre emergents stop the plant before it germinates, so products such as oxidiazon, prodiamine, indiziflam etc. The trick with these is they stop all germination, so if you want to reseed damaged areas or overseed the area the seed simply won't pop. Post emergence is typically done through a spray, just like you'd do at home. Mix the product into a spray tank and go hunt the weeds spraying each individual one. Make sure to get a non selective herbicide though, one that won't kill everything only the undesired plants, halusulfuron or 2-4D are good ones. At least for control in warm season grasses.

 

Don't ask me to remember the trade names....although just for grins I will try to remember.

 

Oxidiazon-Ronstar

Prodiamine-Barricade

Indiziflam-Specticle

 

Halusulfuron-sedgehammer

2-4D-Speedzone

 

Not counting spelling I think that is 4/5

 

Wow, that was an impressive recollection of spraying chemicals... Great information, really appreciate it.

One other question (These are probably very dumb questions) my home course is a couch based course (bent greens) and so for the majority of the year plays fantastically (firm/fast and brown is beautiful are all well known around here) but we have issues with a couple of tee boxes that get not enough light exposure to hold up to heavy traffic in these times. Negating the possibility of tree removal (the expense and neighbouring houses make this unlikely) have you ever had much success with oversowing certain teeing areas with a different grass? I think our super was thinking of a bent grass oversow of these tees so that during winter they would present better, then in summer the couch would take over again as the bent died off in the heat...

 

Thanks, if you use them enough you get to know them. I checked on the names yesterday and was actually 5 for 5 haha, once you get the trade names, you can start buying generics the same way you buy acetominophen at walmart. EXCEPT in season when we are open, in the winter it is the name brand all the time, in the summer we relax the standards a little bit (it is just a fuzzy feeling knowing that you are using the "best" products available that we created and researched by the companies.

 

Yes I actually have 5 holes that have at least one zeon zoysia tee, most strains of zoysia hold up better to shady areas as they simply grow slower so they don't require as much sunshine. There is nothing wrong doing that, and it does not stand out too much because you still keep them at the same heights etc, only thing that gets kinda confusing is the spray schedules because zoysia may not be able to handle what celebration bermuda does. I don't have much trouble with zoysia in the summer time either, so it is a great grass

[caniac6]

Suggestions for preventing or mitigating winter-kill of bermuda and zoysia in fairways? My understanding is if we get snow and it thaws on the fairways and the water starts to run off but freezes in the night it will zap the roots and create large winter-kill patches where there are drains. Balls behave similarly to water in that they tend to end up in the lowest spots so inevitably we hit from the bare patches in spring at green-up.

 

 

Next, bent greens, what kind of watering regimen could be employed to promote deep roots? I get the "infrequent watering" plan but what does that mean exactly and how long would it take to see results?

 

Some of the worst conditions we can see here are hot and humid or hot and rainy. A combination of heat that stresses the bent and then overwatering, whether perpetrated by Ma Nature or having to wet the greens during the day to keep them from burning up.

 

^These are the two biggest conditioning issues I see around here.

 

You cannot prevent winter kill, try as we, the USGA, fert and chem companies, we just can't prevent it. We can take steps to minimize it, and have developed turf that is less susceptible to winter kill. Winter kill happens from one (or a combination) of things, ice suffocation, crown damage, outright low temps, or desiccation. Either of those alone can cause damage, but often it is a combination of these happenings that occur through out the winter months. There is no silver bullet cure, and I doubt that there will be. You can convert to more tolerant strains of bermuda turf, such as Latitude 36, Patriot, or Northbridge. You can also improve drainage from those areas, and reduce shade. The other big thing that I would suggest and implement if I was in a cold climate, would be proper fertilization in the fall before the plant shuts down. Think about a bear that hibernates, he stocks up on nutrients that he will need to sustain himself for the winter, I want to use the same idea for the plant. Pack it full of nutrients, so that it can make it through the winter, and ideally have a little left in the plant to wake up.

 

Unfortunately, "deep infrequent" watering is bs, it makes sense in theory but it is not practical at all. Temperatures in the canopy of a green can reach 135 easily, I can't not cool the plant off. So you need a mix of watering schedules. An afternoon syringe will just be a cooling for the plant to sustain respiration. Wetting agents are a huge tool for us, we use to maximize the penetration of water into the soil profile. But creating deeper roots is more from a cultural practices and proper fertilization rather than water use. You need to create space for the roots to grow, and allow for gas exchanges, and fertilizer apps that focus less on color and appearance and more on playability. Water is a factor, but it is my opinion that those other two methods are more effective. It might be right for someone else and another property, but I am going to propagate root maturation with the latter methods.

When I was working at a course we had a very well known consultant come in, and he told us to water more often. He said he had seen more greens lost due to drought than disease. He also told us to keep watch for disease, and increase frequency of spraying.

[BNGL]

Suggestions for preventing or mitigating winter-kill of bermuda and zoysia in fairways? My understanding is if we get snow and it thaws on the fairways and the water starts to run off but freezes in the night it will zap the roots and create large winter-kill patches where there are drains. Balls behave similarly to water in that they tend to end up in the lowest spots so inevitably we hit from the bare patches in spring at green-up.

 

 

Next, bent greens, what kind of watering regimen could be employed to promote deep roots? I get the "infrequent watering" plan but what does that mean exactly and how long would it take to see results?

 

Some of the worst conditions we can see here are hot and humid or hot and rainy. A combination of heat that stresses the bent and then overwatering, whether perpetrated by Ma Nature or having to wet the greens during the day to keep them from burning up.

 

^These are the two biggest conditioning issues I see around here.

 

You cannot prevent winter kill, try as we, the USGA, fert and chem companies, we just can't prevent it. We can take steps to minimize it, and have developed turf that is less susceptible to winter kill. Winter kill happens from one (or a combination) of things, ice suffocation, crown damage, outright low temps, or desiccation. Either of those alone can cause damage, but often it is a combination of these happenings that occur through out the winter months. There is no silver bullet cure, and I doubt that there will be. You can convert to more tolerant strains of bermuda turf, such as Latitude 36, Patriot, or Northbridge. You can also improve drainage from those areas, and reduce shade. The other big thing that I would suggest and implement if I was in a cold climate, would be proper fertilization in the fall before the plant shuts down. Think about a bear that hibernates, he stocks up on nutrients that he will need to sustain himself for the winter, I want to use the same idea for the plant. Pack it full of nutrients, so that it can make it through the winter, and ideally have a little left in the plant to wake up.

 

Unfortunately, "deep infrequent" watering is bs, it makes sense in theory but it is not practical at all. Temperatures in the canopy of a green can reach 135 easily, I can't not cool the plant off. So you need a mix of watering schedules. An afternoon syringe will just be a cooling for the plant to sustain respiration. Wetting agents are a huge tool for us, we use to maximize the penetration of water into the soil profile. But creating deeper roots is more from a cultural practices and proper fertilization rather than water use. You need to create space for the roots to grow, and allow for gas exchanges, and fertilizer apps that focus less on color and appearance and more on playability. Water is a factor, but it is my opinion that those other two methods are more effective. It might be right for someone else and another property, but I am going to propagate root maturation with the latter methods.

When I was working at a course we had a very well known consultant come in, and he told us to water more often. He said he had seen more greens lost due to drought than disease. He also told us to keep watch for disease, and increase frequency of spraying.

 

Id agree with that, but you're not watering to the point of saturating the soil profile and keeping it wet. I don't even run overheads on greens at night, barring something extremely drastic.

 

Typical watering day for us.

0530-go check a few greens, typically the drier ones, with a meter and get an average of numbers. If the numbers are low, and they maybe, we will run a 3 minute cycle on all greens.

 

0630-two to three guys will be assigned hoses and meters to check all the greens on the property. Typical number will be 18 VWC%, and they'll hit the hotspots.

 

1500-a quick two minutes from each station around the green to cool of the leaf blade and that is all it needs.

 

Water is a hard thing to balance, too much will kill and foster disease, not enough will kill and weaken the plant. Every course is different, and you gotta manage that seesaw as best you can.

[jli2636]

How long does it take you in the morning to get the course ready on a normal day? I tried making a tee time at the course I just joined this year and noticed the earliest they let people out is 8:30 on a Saturday, which seemed awfully late to me. My only thought is that the crew is understaffed and needs more time to get the course ready?

[jdhallissey]

Jl depends on where you are at in the world. Northern states first tee time is 5:15-5:20. Desert golf is 5:00am to 6:00am. Then anything south of the Mason Dickson well 7:30 is early. My club in fl it is basically 7:30 is the first time. It was weird. Also golf shops not opening till noon on sundays was weird also.

[BNGL]

How long does it take you in the morning to get the course ready on a normal day? I tried making a tee time at the course I just joined this year and noticed the earliest they let people out is 8:30 on a Saturday, which seemed awfully late to me. My only thought is that the crew is understaffed and needs more time to get the course ready?

 

There is a ton of factors that go into the time it takes, not all are related to staffing problems, size of the property, length between holes, location of the shop in relation to the course, equipment breakdowns, etc.

 

A tour event for example, we can have the entire course mowed out (tees, step cut and walkouts, fairways, greens, approaches, collars), greens rolled often more than once, greens watered, and all the cut areas blown off in time for the first tee times in the AM, and that was starting at 0430. But granted that is an extreme example, lots of help, lots of equipment, lots of dollars and volunteer hours.

 

At a minimum, two greens mowers, sand pro, and setup crew, I would expect 3.5-4hours to prep 18. But you don't need to wait the whole four hours, you can start (playing at a reasonable pace) I would say within an hour (give the crew a head start of an hour.) Typically weekends, a lot of clubs do something called a mow and go, which is minimal staff. The thought being that it will be busier and no point in doing work while lots of golfers are out there.

 

It largely depends on where you are though, even just clubs here, in Orlando I started the crews at 0500 because the pro shop packed the tee sheets all day in season so they went as fast as they could, which actually slowed it down haha, now I have no problem starting at 0630.

[mallrat]

How long does it take you in the morning to get the course ready on a normal day? I tried making a tee time at the course I just joined this year and noticed the earliest they let people out is 8:30 on a Saturday, which seemed awfully late to me. My only thought is that the crew is understaffed and needs more time to get the course ready?

 

My current course has 36 holes and is the longest I have heard of. 1 course is about 4.5 - 5 hours, the other is 5 to 5.5 hours. The course that is the longest has 22 greens and 8 acres of bunkers. That said, play goes off at 7:30 and very very rarely catches us.

[jli2636]

How long does it take you in the morning to get the course ready on a normal day? I tried making a tee time at the course I just joined this year and noticed the earliest they let people out is 8:30 on a Saturday, which seemed awfully late to me. My only thought is that the crew is understaffed and needs more time to get the course ready?

 

There is a ton of factors that go into the time it takes, not all are related to staffing problems, size of the property, length between holes, location of the shop in relation to the course, equipment breakdowns, etc.

 

A tour event for example, we can have the entire course mowed out (tees, step cut and walkouts, fairways, greens, approaches, collars), greens rolled often more than once, greens watered, and all the cut areas blown off in time for the first tee times in the AM, and that was starting at 0430. But granted that is an extreme example, lots of help, lots of equipment, lots of dollars and volunteer hours.

 

At a minimum, two greens mowers, sand pro, and setup crew, I would expect 3.5-4hours to prep 18. But you don't need to wait the whole four hours, you can start (playing at a reasonable pace) I would say within an hour (give the crew a head start of an hour.) Typically weekends, a lot of clubs do something called a mow and go, which is minimal staff. The thought being that it will be busier and no point in doing work while lots of golfers are out there.

 

It largely depends on where you are though, even just clubs here, in Orlando I started the crews at 0500 because the pro shop packed the tee sheets all day in season so they went as fast as they could, which actually slowed it down haha, now I have no problem starting at 0630.

 

Thanks for the reply. It’s a University course in the midwest. Only 18 holes and from the tips plays 6500. It just baffled me that 8:30 was the earliest that they even took times for.

[caniac6]

How long does it take you in the morning to get the course ready on a normal day? I tried making a tee time at the course I just joined this year and noticed the earliest they let people out is 8:30 on a Saturday, which seemed awfully late to me. My only thought is that the crew is understaffed and needs more time to get the course ready?

 

There is a ton of factors that go into the time it takes, not all are related to staffing problems, size of the property, length between holes, location of the shop in relation to the course, equipment breakdowns, etc.

 

A tour event for example, we can have the entire course mowed out (tees, step cut and walkouts, fairways, greens, approaches, collars), greens rolled often more than once, greens watered, and all the cut areas blown off in time for the first tee times in the AM, and that was starting at 0430. But granted that is an extreme example, lots of help, lots of equipment, lots of dollars and volunteer hours.

 

At a minimum, two greens mowers, sand pro, and setup crew, I would expect 3.5-4hours to prep 18. But you don't need to wait the whole four hours, you can start (playing at a reasonable pace) I would say within an hour (give the crew a head start of an hour.) Typically weekends, a lot of clubs do something called a mow and go, which is minimal staff. The thought being that it will be busier and no point in doing work while lots of golfers are out there.

 

It largely depends on where you are though, even just clubs here, in Orlando I started the crews at 0500 because the pro shop packed the tee sheets all day in season so they went as fast as they could, which actually slowed it down haha, now I have no problem starting at 0630.

 

Thanks for the reply. Its a University course in the midwest. Only 18 holes and from the tips plays 6500. It just baffled me that 8:30 was the earliest that they even took times for.

It gives the professors enough time to drink coffee, and read the paper.

[Destroyer]

at the course i'm at we start at 6:00am. sometimes 5:00am for tournaments. we have 6 different sections. i will give you an example. A section is 1,4,16,18. we check greens for debris, and ball marks if we can see them(remember it's still dark). we mow the green then blow the green off and continue to blow 40 yards out including rough etc. rake each bunker. this will take you till 8:30-9:00. tee times start at 8:00. sometimes the pro shop will let a group or two tee off on 17 :angry22: . if i do section A i will see this as i am going from 16 to 18 so i will make sure i start mowing the side of the green that has the hole in it so at least the players will put on a mowed green. but when this happens now i'm waiting and sometimes not done till 9:00-9:30. now this is a part time job for me but i am amazed how time sensitive things are at a golf course. i hope this helps.

[BNGL]

How long does it take you in the morning to get the course ready on a normal day? I tried making a tee time at the course I just joined this year and noticed the earliest they let people out is 8:30 on a Saturday, which seemed awfully late to me. My only thought is that the crew is understaffed and needs more time to get the course ready?

 

There is a ton of factors that go into the time it takes, not all are related to staffing problems, size of the property, length between holes, location of the shop in relation to the course, equipment breakdowns, etc.

 

A tour event for example, we can have the entire course mowed out (tees, step cut and walkouts, fairways, greens, approaches, collars), greens rolled often more than once, greens watered, and all the cut areas blown off in time for the first tee times in the AM, and that was starting at 0430. But granted that is an extreme example, lots of help, lots of equipment, lots of dollars and volunteer hours.

 

At a minimum, two greens mowers, sand pro, and setup crew, I would expect 3.5-4hours to prep 18. But you don't need to wait the whole four hours, you can start (playing at a reasonable pace) I would say within an hour (give the crew a head start of an hour.) Typically weekends, a lot of clubs do something called a mow and go, which is minimal staff. The thought being that it will be busier and no point in doing work while lots of golfers are out there.

 

It largely depends on where you are though, even just clubs here, in Orlando I started the crews at 0500 because the pro shop packed the tee sheets all day in season so they went as fast as they could, which actually slowed it down haha, now I have no problem starting at 0630.

 

Thanks for the reply. It's a University course in the midwest. Only 18 holes and from the tips plays 6500. It just baffled me that 8:30 was the earliest that they even took times for.

 

A lot of courses like that I think employ college students, it is their student work programs and they have to meet certain student first regulations. I know where I went to school, they could not work on campus between 2230 and 0600, unless they didn't have class until after 1215 (which was fine, because campus dining closed at 2200 and the restaurants closed at 2230). It was good rule I thought looked out for the student, gave them an opportunity to work and how to balance work with other things in life.

[BNGL]

I found this hilarious and true

[third-times-a-charm]

Are nematoads cureable? A private near me has them and in years havent been able to fully get rid of them and a few holes have lots of grass loss because of it.

[BNGL]

Are nematoads cureable? A private near me has them and in years havent been able to fully get rid of them and a few holes have lots of grass loss because of it.

 

Short answer no, nematodes are always present in the soil profile it only becomes necessary to treat them when the breach the threshold level specific to each species. There are something like a dozen species, ranging from 2 micrometers to over 30 feet in length (the biggest ones parasitize whales). For golf courses we find mostly smaller ones, typically microscopic. Greens are the best place for todes to inhabit, because traditionally there is plenty of sand in the profile that allows for oxygen and easy freedom of movement. So how do you treat them? Take away those two factors, obviously, or you can treat them with nematicides. These are highly toxic, typically they work by shutting down the todes Central Nervous System (CNS) which prevents the brain from talking to important organs like the lungs and heart; you stop breathing and your heart stops. The product that everyone used was something called Nemacur, and it was truly a cure as the name implied but it was taken off the market. Now there are other products, but they only target particular species of todes not all like previous products. There are other products which are just as effective as Nemacur, but they are deemed too hazardous for golf course use...they are however used extensively in strawberry fields, potato fields, and athletic fields...but not golf courses because it is too toxic.

 

Which course in Orlando (Central Florida) are you referring too? Probably know him is all

[ebrasmus21]

Are nematoads cureable? A private near me has them and in years havent been able to fully get rid of them and a few holes have lots of grass loss because of it.

 

Short answer no, nematodes are always present in the soil profile it only becomes necessary to treat them when the breach the threshold level specific to each species. There are something like a dozen species, ranging from 2 micrometers to over 30 feet in length (the biggest ones parasitize whales). For golf courses we find mostly smaller ones, typically microscopic. Greens are the best place for todes to inhabit, because traditionally there is plenty of sand in the profile that allows for oxygen and easy freedom of movement. So how do you treat them? Take away those two factors, obviously, or you can treat them with nematicides. These are highly toxic, typically they work by shutting down the todes Central Nervous System (CNS) which prevents the brain from talking to important organs like the lungs and heart; you stop breathing and your heart stops. The product that everyone used was something called Nemacur, and it was truly a cure as the name implied but it was taken off the market. Now there are other products, but they only target particular species of todes not all like previous products. There are other products which are just as effective as Nemacur, but they are deemed too hazardous for golf course use...they are however used extensively in strawberry fields, potato fields, and athletic fields...but not golf courses because it is too toxic.

 

Which course in Orlando (Central Florida) are you referring too? Probably know him is all

 

BNGL - can you expand on that? We are eating all these foods where the Nemacur is applied but how is that toxicity acceptable compared to course?

[BNGL]

Are nematoads cureable? A private near me has them and in years havent been able to fully get rid of them and a few holes have lots of grass loss because of it.

 

Short answer no, nematodes are always present in the soil profile it only becomes necessary to treat them when the breach the threshold level specific to each species. There are something like a dozen species, ranging from 2 micrometers to over 30 feet in length (the biggest ones parasitize whales). For golf courses we find mostly smaller ones, typically microscopic. Greens are the best place for todes to inhabit, because traditionally there is plenty of sand in the profile that allows for oxygen and easy freedom of movement. So how do you treat them? Take away those two factors, obviously, or you can treat them with nematicides. These are highly toxic, typically they work by shutting down the todes Central Nervous System (CNS) which prevents the brain from talking to important organs like the lungs and heart; you stop breathing and your heart stops. The product that everyone used was something called Nemacur, and it was truly a cure as the name implied but it was taken off the market. Now there are other products, but they only target particular species of todes not all like previous products. There are other products which are just as effective as Nemacur, but they are deemed too hazardous for golf course use...they are however used extensively in strawberry fields, potato fields, and athletic fields...but not golf courses because it is too toxic.

 

Which course in Orlando (Central Florida) are you referring too? Probably know him is all

 

BNGL - can you expand on that? We are eating all these foods where the Nemacur is applied but how is that toxicity acceptable compared to course?

 

Surprise! A majority of chemicals that are applied on your food and drink are far more toxic than any products that I would ever need to control any weeds or pests. Two products that come immediately to my mind are Vydate and Chlorine. Vydate is a nematicide made by DuPont, and it has demonstrated great ability to control a broad range of pests not limited to nematodes. One example of Vydate application is to apple orchards, you can use to control pests at the orchard, but those trees better not bear fruit within a year according to the label (REMEMBER THE LABEL IS LAW!). But Vydate is classified as an organophosphate which are deadly to biological organisms, as it shuts down the CNS, but it is not limited to only the targeted pests. The applicator is at risk if he does not take proper precautions and use proper PPE (Tyvek Chem suit, gloves, respirator, rubber boots, tape up the sleeves at the gloves to make a seal...at minimum). Bystanders are at risk if they enter the contaminated area before the reentry period has passed.

Chlorine gas is a pulmonary irritant, obviously it has been weaponized by the Germans and more recently in Syria. It is a horrible thing, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, chemical weapons should never ever be used. What chlorine can do is dissolve your lungs because chlorine is reactive, like oxygen only not as explosive. But what happens is the chlorine gas gets into your lungs and reacts with the moisture (H20) in your lungs and becomes an acid...hydrochloric acid to be exact. Now the EPA mandates that water have detectable levels of chlorine because they use it to decontaminate the water (I think the EPA mandates 4 parts per million to which they say has no adverse health risks).

[ebrasmus21]

Are nematoads cureable? A private near me has them and in years havent been able to fully get rid of them and a few holes have lots of grass loss because of it.

 

Short answer no, nematodes are always present in the soil profile it only becomes necessary to treat them when the breach the threshold level specific to each species. There are something like a dozen species, ranging from 2 micrometers to over 30 feet in length (the biggest ones parasitize whales). For golf courses we find mostly smaller ones, typically microscopic. Greens are the best place for todes to inhabit, because traditionally there is plenty of sand in the profile that allows for oxygen and easy freedom of movement. So how do you treat them? Take away those two factors, obviously, or you can treat them with nematicides. These are highly toxic, typically they work by shutting down the todes Central Nervous System (CNS) which prevents the brain from talking to important organs like the lungs and heart; you stop breathing and your heart stops. The product that everyone used was something called Nemacur, and it was truly a cure as the name implied but it was taken off the market. Now there are other products, but they only target particular species of todes not all like previous products. There are other products which are just as effective as Nemacur, but they are deemed too hazardous for golf course use...they are however used extensively in strawberry fields, potato fields, and athletic fields...but not golf courses because it is too toxic.

 

Which course in Orlando (Central Florida) are you referring too? Probably know him is all

 

BNGL - can you expand on that? We are eating all these foods where the Nemacur is applied but how is that toxicity acceptable compared to course?

 

Surprise! A majority of chemicals that are applied on your food and drink are far more toxic than any products that I would ever need to control any weeds or pests. Two products that come immediately to my mind are Vydate and Chlorine. Vydate is a nematicide made by DuPont, and it has demonstrated great ability to control a broad range of pests not limited to nematodes. One example of Vydate application is to apple orchards, you can use to control pests at the orchard, but those trees better not bear fruit within a year according to the label (REMEMBER THE LABEL IS LAW!). But Vydate is classified as an organophosphate which are deadly to biological organisms, as it shuts down the CNS, but it is not limited to only the targeted pests. The applicator is at risk if he does not take proper precautions and use proper PPE (Tyvek Chem suit, gloves, respirator, rubber boots, tape up the sleeves at the gloves to make a seal...at minimum). Bystanders are at risk if they enter the contaminated area before the reentry period has passed.

Chlorine gas is a pulmonary irritant, obviously it has been weaponized by the Germans and more recently in Syria. It is a horrible thing, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, chemical weapons should never ever be used. What chlorine can do is dissolve your lungs because chlorine is reactive, like oxygen only not as explosive. But what happens is the chlorine gas gets into your lungs and reacts with the moisture (H20) in your lungs and becomes an acid...hydrochloric acid to be exact. Now the EPA mandates that water have detectable levels of chlorine because they use it to decontaminate the water (I think the EPA mandates 4 parts per million to which they say has no adverse health risks).

 

I’m not doubting anything your saying, not at all (hope it didn’t come across that way). I’m just curious as to why the heck the same chemicals that are on, or near our food, are unacceptable to us on a golf course?

 

That doesn’t make sense, right? Food - eat. Golf course - not eat. Seems like one should be able to use the same chemicals if desired.

[BNGL]

Are nematoads cureable? A private near me has them and in years havent been able to fully get rid of them and a few holes have lots of grass loss because of it.

 

Short answer no, nematodes are always present in the soil profile it only becomes necessary to treat them when the breach the threshold level specific to each species. There are something like a dozen species, ranging from 2 micrometers to over 30 feet in length (the biggest ones parasitize whales). For golf courses we find mostly smaller ones, typically microscopic. Greens are the best place for todes to inhabit, because traditionally there is plenty of sand in the profile that allows for oxygen and easy freedom of movement. So how do you treat them? Take away those two factors, obviously, or you can treat them with nematicides. These are highly toxic, typically they work by shutting down the todes Central Nervous System (CNS) which prevents the brain from talking to important organs like the lungs and heart; you stop breathing and your heart stops. The product that everyone used was something called Nemacur, and it was truly a cure as the name implied but it was taken off the market. Now there are other products, but they only target particular species of todes not all like previous products. There are other products which are just as effective as Nemacur, but they are deemed too hazardous for golf course use...they are however used extensively in strawberry fields, potato fields, and athletic fields...but not golf courses because it is too toxic.

 

Which course in Orlando (Central Florida) are you referring too? Probably know him is all

 

BNGL - can you expand on that? We are eating all these foods where the Nemacur is applied but how is that toxicity acceptable compared to course?

 

Surprise! A majority of chemicals that are applied on your food and drink are far more toxic than any products that I would ever need to control any weeds or pests. Two products that come immediately to my mind are Vydate and Chlorine. Vydate is a nematicide made by DuPont, and it has demonstrated great ability to control a broad range of pests not limited to nematodes. One example of Vydate application is to apple orchards, you can use to control pests at the orchard, but those trees better not bear fruit within a year according to the label (REMEMBER THE LABEL IS LAW!). But Vydate is classified as an organophosphate which are deadly to biological organisms, as it shuts down the CNS, but it is not limited to only the targeted pests. The applicator is at risk if he does not take proper precautions and use proper PPE (Tyvek Chem suit, gloves, respirator, rubber boots, tape up the sleeves at the gloves to make a seal...at minimum). Bystanders are at risk if they enter the contaminated area before the reentry period has passed.

Chlorine gas is a pulmonary irritant, obviously it has been weaponized by the Germans and more recently in Syria. It is a horrible thing, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, chemical weapons should never ever be used. What chlorine can do is dissolve your lungs because chlorine is reactive, like oxygen only not as explosive. But what happens is the chlorine gas gets into your lungs and reacts with the moisture (H20) in your lungs and becomes an acid...hydrochloric acid to be exact. Now the EPA mandates that water have detectable levels of chlorine because they use it to decontaminate the water (I think the EPA mandates 4 parts per million to which they say has no adverse health risks).

 

I'm not doubting anything your saying, not at all (hope it didn't come across that way). I'm just curious as to why the heck the same chemicals that are on, or near our food, are unacceptable to us on a golf course?

 

That doesn't make sense, right? Food - eat. Golf course - not eat. Seems like one should be able to use the same chemicals if desired.

 

Ah I understand now. I am not totally sure as to how or why that happens. My guess is that the manufacture creates the products and submits it to the EPA or other government agencies after it has gone through extensive trials for a specific use. (Oxamyl is banned on golf courses, but not on food) So it is like "Hey congrats on this new product it works great at controlling weevils in the orchards, here is the labels sell away!".

 

I do know a big concern is the chemicals seeping into the ground water, which is something that we are gearing up for here in Florida with the algae blooms (local governments are looking at reinstating nitrogen fertilizer bans). Golf courses are seen as a huge target because people think (rightly as I will explain in the next paragraph). that courses tend to be large chemical dumps. That is not true nowadays, properly managed courses are actually very good at filtering out chemicals before they reach ground water and contaminants can run away from the course and expose others.

 

Golf courses back in the early to mid 90s were toxic, we just didn't know. Of the 30 most commonly used herbicides 19 were carcinogenic (Roundup was marketed as safer than table salt, Monsanto just got popped for 280 million? plus a class action lawsuit is definitely coming), 13 caused birth defects or birth complications. It was not ignorance, we just didn't know. Now we know and we (golf course superintendents, horticulturalists, grounds managers, etc) take our roles of environmental stewards very seriously. We will actively take measures to control pests beyond pesticide usage or through the use of safer and more stable chemicals, or none at all in the case of a club in Golden, Colorado.

 

So for how and why products are labeled for agriculture and not golf, or vice versa I am not really sure. But I can try to find out.

[howellhandmade]

When and why might it be advantageous to keep a golf course mushy-wet? My Saturday group plays a course that is a great design, but is watered so much that we conclude they get paid to use water. If it has rained for three days they'll be watering on the fourth. On many holes we aim for the rough because they don't water it and the ball won't plug there. It has been a wet summer here; I don't understand why you'd water quicksand. The owner and the super both shrug off complaints. I read here that too much water kills and invites disease. The course doesn't seem diseased or dying, but I can't remember the last time I found a drive more than a couple feet from its ball mark. What are we golfers missing?

[mallrat]

When and why might it be advantageous to keep a golf course mushy-wet? My Saturday group plays a course that is a great design, but is watered so much that we conclude they get paid to use water. If it has rained for three days they'll be watering on the fourth. On many holes we aim for the rough because they don't water it and the ball won't plug there. It has been a wet summer here; I don't understand why you'd water quicksand. The owner and the super both shrug off complaints. I read here that too much water kills and invites disease. The course doesn't seem diseased or dying, but I can't remember the last time I found a drive more than a couple feet from its ball mark. What are we golfers missing?

 

I can’t speak to disease and don’t want to take anything away from BNGL’s insight but sometimes it is out of the supers hands. If the owners or GM want the course to play or look a certain way it is the supers job to get it there, even if it goes against how he wants the course to look/play.

 

At my last course it was an interesting balance because the GM/owners want the course as green as anything you’ve seen and the super likes the course to get a browned out so he has to find that balance. Some of that comes from the course doing a TON of wedding and tournament business and they all want to see it green.

[Matt J]

BNGL, we have a local super, I have a lot of respect for the guy. He was hired before grow in, by a big name designer, he's been at the same course for more than twenty years. I once sent the designer a question about the layout and he basically deferred to the super so he said, "knows more about that golf course than any man living." BUT (there's always a but) - BUT - the course was purchased out of foreclosure a few years ago by a wealthy retiree. For some reason, between the two of them, they over water the snot out of this place. All complaints fall on deaf ears. It seems from the super's point of view there's no such thing as too much water. We had a biblical wind storm last week. I went out and played this layout at the tail end of this storm. It was the best I've ever seen the place. The wind had dried out everything but the lowest places. The greens putted well (not a lot of spike marks during a storm, and this place gets a TON of play). So, what's an effective way to encourage these guys to embrace the "brown?" We all remember the brownie frownie, but in golf this simply isn't the case! We want brown! We need brown!

[howellhandmade]

When and why might it be advantageous to keep a golf course mushy-wet? My Saturday group plays a course that is a great design, but is watered so much that we conclude they get paid to use water. If it has rained for three days they'll be watering on the fourth. On many holes we aim for the rough because they don't water it and the ball won't plug there. It has been a wet summer here; I don't understand why you'd water quicksand. The owner and the super both shrug off complaints. I read here that too much water kills and invites disease. The course doesn't seem diseased or dying, but I can't remember the last time I found a drive more than a couple feet from its ball mark. What are we golfers missing?

 

I can’t speak to disease and don’t want to take anything away from BNGL’s insight but sometimes it is out of the supers hands. If the owners or GM want the course to play or look a certain way it is the supers job to get it there, even if it goes against how he wants the course to look/play.

 

At my last course it was an interesting balance because the GM/owners want the course as green as anything you’ve seen and the super likes the course to get a browned out so he has to find that balance. Some of that comes from the course doing a TON of wedding and tournament business and they all want to see it green.

 

My course is owned by a farming family and they seem to be lovely people but are . . . thrifty. The course gets ridden hard and put up wet, so to speak. It was designed by a good architecht but built by an earth moving company with no golf course experience so there are drainage problems. Areas of the course are perpetually swampy. Letting it dry out a bit would do a world of good, most of us golfers think, but they keep pouring water on it. I would think that firmer conditions would help it endure the pounding it gets from outings and such

[Matt J]

Seems a pattern is emerging :)

[howellhandmade]

Seems a pattern is emerging :)

 

Your course is owned by farmers too?

 

I guess I could understand if it had to be wet to be green, but here in western PA everything that isn't paved is green in the summer.

[Malvern]

When and why might it be advantageous to keep a golf course mushy-wet? My Saturday group plays a course that is a great design, but is watered so much that we conclude they get paid to use water.

 

This is a reasonable description of Pebble Beach

 

BNGL, do you ever get told by the owners, "we want it firm and fast"

[Matt J]

Seems a pattern is emerging :)

 

Your course is owned by farmers too?

 

I guess I could understand if it had to be wet to be green, but here in western PA everything that isn't paved is green in the summer.

 

Southern Oregon, pretty green as well... on several levels.

 

Never occurred to me that the wedding clients like to see the green. Now, that makes a lot of sense. The owner I'm referring to is not a farmer, he's actually a good player. That's why it makes even less sense why he over waters.

[BNGL]

When and why might it be advantageous to keep a golf course mushy-wet? My Saturday group plays a course that is a great design, but is watered so much that we conclude they get paid to use water. If it has rained for three days they'll be watering on the fourth. On many holes we aim for the rough because they don't water it and the ball won't plug there. It has been a wet summer here; I don't understand why you'd water quicksand. The owner and the super both shrug off complaints. I read here that too much water kills and invites disease. The course doesn't seem diseased or dying, but I can't remember the last time I found a drive more than a couple feet from its ball mark. What are we golfers missing?

 

I haven’t the slightest clue. I haven’t read or been told anything to that extent, nor maintained anything like that. There could be some high clay soils, or just mismanagement of the water program. When you stay really wet, you have no roots, fosters disease, and lacks something called playability (which is the most important thing). But going drier is hard to maintain as well, because it’s a seesaw and you need to stay in balance.

 

That’s unfortunate that your management team won’t answer your questions.