Who on tour has a Malaska type swing??

[Shilgy]

Can you teach a student what the pros do using laymans terms then or do you think you can teach it without the "These tour pros (below) are applying a healthy dose of both Beta and Gamma torque beginning about midway in their downswing " type of verbiage?

 

Sure, but why would I want to use layman's terms here on GolfWRX when discussing specific club movements when easily understood single words (Alpha, Beta, Gamma) are a whole lot better understood? The use of layman's terms would require a whole lot of very carefully worded details to explain something, whereas just one word (Alpha, Beta or Gamma) accomplishes the same thing. Throw in 'negative' or 'positive' and the movement being discussed is perfectly clear.

 

It's clear that you just don't want to learn the proper terms of three very simple movements of an object in the y, x and z axis. Or, you want to be difficult to get along with and argue about things...like someone else many of us know - who oftentimes 'Likes' your posts, but must have been put on 'quiet hours' recently.

My last on this is my only point was you suggested that you tell a student they needed to do more, or less, of one of the tourque. Most would have no clue what you are suggesting.

Back to your conversation.

[Fort Worth Pro]

It matters because he can't rotate to offset the force ... cuz he's old. Her rotation rate looks pretty feeble as well.

 

Do you think this feel would work if she or anyone rotated better, earlier, faster ? Wouldn't that person then shallow earlier and not get under late ?

 

When you are steep early you won't rotate as well

[golow]

So she needs less Beta (MM move) and/or more body rotation to start ? (Bear with me I'm no instructor)

[golow]

It matters because he can't rotate to offset the force ... cuz he's old. Her rotation rate looks pretty feeble as well.

 

Do you think this feel would work if she or anyone rotated better, earlier, faster ? Wouldn't that person then shallow earlier and not get under late ?

 

When you are steep early you won't rotate as well

 

I know that ( not being snide) that was my curse for a long while ... Now I feel like rotation keeps my hand up/back.

[iteachgolf]

It matters because he can't rotate to offset the force ... cuz he's old. Her rotation rate looks pretty feeble as well.

 

Do you think this feel would work if she or anyone rotated better, earlier, faster ? Wouldn't that person then shallow earlier and not get under late ?

 

He’s physically able to rotate. The club being steep in transition doesn’t allow him to rotate or he’d shank it or hit a massive pull/pullcut. He’s not rotating in an effort to keep the club approaching from the inside.

 

On her you couldn’t be more off base. She’s is extremely mobile and has zero problem rotating. She’s actually rotating very quickly and early back towards the target, before club reaches top of backswing. She goes from 61* closed at the top of the swing to 66* open at impact. She’s literally rotating off the charts at 794 deg/sec and rotating 127* total with her hips from the top of the backswing to impact. Rotation alone isn’t going to flatten the shaft like you seem to believe it will. And she’s a perfect example of that

 

[iteachgolf]

So she needs less Beta (MM move) and/or more body rotation to start ? (Bear with me I'm no instructor)

 

she’s needs more negative beta (anti MM) but definitely doesn’t need more rotation. Her hips turn 61* from p4 to p5

[golow]

I believe you because you have other swings of hers with 3D data .... I'm just going by the one swing on the YT grab .... doesn't look like she rotates fast or a lot or before the top of BS on that video.

[iteachgolf]

I believe you because you have other swings of hers with 3D data .... I'm just going by the one swing on the YT grab .... doesn't look like she rotates fast or a lot or before the top of BS on that video.

 

In the after swing she’s swinging like 50%. In the first swing her hips are 30-40 open at p6. I think it’s deceptive due to her tempo.

 

61*C to 0* in the hips and 124*C to 56*C in the shoulders. So 61* of rotation in hips and 68* of rotation in the shoulders.

 

[golow]

I believe you because you have other swings of hers with 3D data .... I'm just going by the one swing on the YT grab .... doesn't look like she rotates fast or a lot or before the top of BS on that video.

 

In the after swing she's swinging like 50%. In the first swing her hips are 30-40 open at p6. I think it's deceptive due to her tempo.

 

I honestly didn't know she was going partial speed in after video ... didn't even watch earlier swings in the video (tonight). I just remembered that he had taught her the feel in the first of 4 videos.

 

Ok back to me ;) to not steepen in transition would I actually move neg beta as a feel or just avoid beta (leave the arms up). That's my last question ... gotta get something out of this besides a beatin'

[iteachgolf]

I believe you because you have other swings of hers with 3D data .... I'm just going by the one swing on the YT grab .... doesn't look like she rotates fast or a lot or before the top of BS on that video.

 

In the after swing she's swinging like 50%. In the first swing her hips are 30-40 open at p6. I think it's deceptive due to her tempo.

 

I honestly didn't know she was going partial speed in after video ... didn't even watch earlier swings in the video (tonight). I just remembered that he had taught her the feel in the first of 4 videos.

 

Ok back to me ;) to not steepen in transition would I actually move neg beta as a feel or just avoid beta (leave the arms up). That's my last question ... gotta get something out of this besides a beatin'

 

I’d have to see why it’s steepening. There are many reasons why it could steepen and therefore many different ways to fix it. I’d start by not intentionally steepening it

[golow]

I believe you because you have other swings of hers with 3D data .... I'm just going by the one swing on the YT grab .... doesn't look like she rotates fast or a lot or before the top of BS on that video.

 

In the after swing she's swinging like 50%. In the first swing her hips are 30-40 open at p6. I think it's deceptive due to her tempo.

 

I honestly didn't know she was going partial speed in after video ... didn't even watch earlier swings in the video (tonight). I just remembered that he had taught her the feel in the first of 4 videos.

 

Ok back to me ;) to not steepen in transition would I actually move neg beta as a feel or just avoid beta (leave the arms up). That's my last question ... gotta get something out of this besides a beatin'

 

I'd have to see why it's steepening. There are many reasons why it could steepen and therefore many different ways to fix it. I'd start by not intentionally steepening it

 

I understand and touche

[dap]

I actually think the Malaska move addresses players who are steep in transition, not players that are too flat. Good players that transition steep learn to lay the club down mid way into the downswing and this can cause underplane issues. Blocks and push hooks. Malaska' move is meant offset this but it is supposed to happen near P6 and not early in the downswing. This move can reduce the amount of in to out path.

 

Malaska's own swing is steep in transition, shallows late and then needs his move to steepen the club late. This is not a criticism of his swing. Many tour players are steep in transition.

[Trane5]

I'm all for the malaska move for some players but I too have an issue with his rationale behind it. He says that due to the weight of the club the shaft has a tendency to shallow from the top and his move prevents that from happening too much. I like stuff that at least make sense and this frankly doesn't. Most hackers start down too steep and need the opposite move. Skipping a stone is a popular one.

 

Most hackers are steep in the downswing because their shoulder turn is too active early. MM's move requires that initially the butt end of the grips goes down and also back inward to the stance plane line; this is being down as pressure is being placed onto the left side. So the club is shaft is steeped in MM's move but on plane while the hacker is steep and outside the plane.

[leegee38]

 

I'd have to see why it's steepening. There are many reasons why it could steepen and therefore many different ways to fix it. I'd start by not intentionally steepening it

 

I'm glad you haven't gotten frustrated in trying to explain all this, Dan, because I'm finding it both fascinating and enlightening. Thanks!

 

- Lee

[dap]

I'm all for the malaska move for some players but I too have an issue with his rationale behind it. He says that due to the weight of the club the shaft has a tendency to shallow from the top and his move prevents that from happening too much. I like stuff that at least make sense and this frankly doesn't. Most hackers start down too steep and need the opposite move. Skipping a stone is a popular one.

 

Most hackers are steep in the downswing because their shoulder turn is too active early. MM's move requires that initially the butt end of the grips goes down and also back inward to the stance plane line; this is being down as pressure is being placed onto the left side. So the club is shaft is steeped in MM's move but on plane while the hacker is steep and outside the plane.

Shoulders active too early results in an out to in path aka OTT. It doesn't necessarily cause a steep transition as many great players are steep in transition, the most famous of them being Nicklaus.

 

Put quite simply, Malaska does nothing like what his move does in his own swing. It's just a move to reduce the amount of in to out of underplane players like himself.

[Hilts1969]

 

Mike is similarly steep in transition and then dumps it under which requires a flip to square the face, so he then has head well in front the ball and stays in flexion so he doesn’t hit it fat

 

Ironically the vast majority of golfers on the planet would take that golf swing all day long

[Yff Theos]

The greats shallowed like this (great angle to look at):

 

 

Hands go forward, not down, and then it is easier to apply neg. beta.

[iteachgolf]

 

Mike is similarly steep in transition and then dumps it under which requires a flip to square the face, so he then has head well in front the ball and stays in flexion so he doesn’t hit it fat

 

Ironically the vast majority of golfers on the planet would take that golf swing all day long

 

They’d take my golfswing too. What does that have to do with anything?

[Golfbeat]

I remember that I once argued with iTeach. It did not end well for me. Haha. He really knows his s***.

[Pinball Wizard]

The greats shallowed like this (great angle to look at):

 

 

Hands go forward, not down, and then it is easier to apply neg. beta.

 

Nice vid, thanks for posting. Maybe what Malaska is sensing is more inertia related instead of gravity, not sure how Mike put that together though. Still hopefully waiting for a tech-geek to say how gravity was measured in order to say it doesn't have effect, although I concede minimal effect. But Nicklaus and Miller call it a gravity drop, and other pros call it a free fall. Maybe after the initial reverse in transition is when, "gravity" is more sensed on the club as laid-off is shaft lean.

[iteachgolf]

The greats shallowed like this (great angle to look at):

 

 

Hands go forward, not down, and then it is easier to apply neg. beta.

 

Nice vid, thanks for posting. Maybe what Malaska is sensing is more inertia related instead of gravity, not sure how Mike put that together though. Still hopefully waiting for a tech-geek to say how gravity was measured in order to say it doesn't have effect, although I concede minimal effect. But Nicklaus and Miller call it a gravity drop, and other pros call it a free fall. Maybe after the initial reverse in transition is when, "gravity" is more sensed on the club as laid-off is shaft lean.

 

What do you mean how gravity was measured? Force due to gravity is easy to calculate. The mass is known and constant and acceleration due to gravity is known and constant. The force of gravity on the club is very easy to calculate. You have to be trolling at this point.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

So, if I take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

[Chote konez]

So, if you take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

 

No to one, therefore no to 2 and you are incorrect about 3.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

So, if you take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

 

No to one, therefore no to 2 and you are incorrect about 3.

 

Why is it 'no' to one? How would it fall instead?

[Golfbeat]

So, if you take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

 

You are not dropping the club. You move the handle out, forward and down. This move shallows the club not gravity, at least not to a any significant amount.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

So, if you take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

 

You are not dropping the club. You move the handle out, forward and down. This move shallows the club not gravity, at least not to a any significant amount.

 

I was asking if I literally dropped the club. You know, take it to the top of my backswing and, instead of swinging it, just literally let go of it.

[Golfbeat]

So, if you take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

 

You are not dropping the club. You move the handle out, forward and down. This move shallows the club not gravity, at least not to a any significant amount.

 

I was asking if I literally dropped the club. You know, take it to the top of my backswing and, instead of swinging it, just literally let go of it.

 

That could be but what would the practical use?

[Pinball Wizard]

So, if you take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

 

You are not dropping the club. You move the handle out, forward and down. This move shallows the club not gravity, at least not to a any significant amount.

 

I was asking if I literally dropped the club. You know, take it to the top of my backswing and, instead of swinging it, just literally let go of it.

 

A lot of professional players, including Arnold Palmer I think, said "just let the swing go". I think you may be correct too- the club will maintain whatever relationship it started with while in free fall.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

So, if you take a club to the top of your backswing, and the club is at an angle rather than strictly vertical, and then drop the club, am I correct in thinking that the club would fall to the ground at that same angle? If so, then if I don't let go of the club, isn't the weight of the clubhead creating a beta torque against my hands just by me continuing top hold the the handle of the club? If I'm correct, how is that not gravity creating a torque against the hands?

 

You are not dropping the club. You move the handle out, forward and down. This move shallows the club not gravity, at least not to a any significant amount.

 

I was asking if I literally dropped the club. You know, take it to the top of my backswing and, instead of swinging it, just literally let go of it.

 

That could be but what would the practical use?

 

I'm more concerned that I was unclear about what I said the first time, or if you just misunderstood it. But, to answer your question, I want to understand what's being discussed here. For me, when I have a better understanding of how things work, I end up with more choices in how to make it work.

[Yff Theos]

When gravity can help substantially in creating neg. beta ? when club would be perpendicular to the left arm with its head back (not up).