Who on tour has a Malaska type swing??

[Golfbeat]

If you say it's non sense you either don't understand it or don't want to.

You missed one-don't need to. Way too technical verbiage for most players. In my opinion of course. But you guys can discuss amongst yourselves that way and it makes sense. To most players seeking to improve it should be phrased less technically.

 

It's just shorthand for explaining things. Just like it's easier to say "p6" than "the point in the downswing where the club is parallel to the ground"

Sure it is-for guys that use such verbiage. For the normal guy-heck I bet I could poll the under 4 caps at my club, many of them plus's- and none/very few you have a clue what this tourque biz is or the P's for that matter.

 

They are probably also not on this Forum. This Forum is for geeks, don't you get it?

[Shilgy]

If you say it's non sense you either don't understand it or don't want to.

You missed one-don't need to. Way too technical verbiage for most players. In my opinion of course. But you guys can discuss amongst yourselves that way and it makes sense. To most players seeking to improve it should be phrased less technically.

 

It's just shorthand for explaining things. Just like it's easier to say "p6" than "the point in the downswing where the club is parallel to the ground"

Sure it is-for guys that use such verbiage. For the normal guy-heck I bet I could poll the under 4 caps at my club, many of them plus's- and none/very few you have a clue what this tourque biz is or the P's for that matter.

 

They are probably also not on this Forum. This Forum is for geeks, don't you get it?

Sure I get it. I hope the geeks that are actual instructors understand that the post I replied to said to tell a student " go into some tourque blah blah" at some point in the swing. Don't recall what P he referred to. Very few students will be helped by that verbiage.

This is an instruction forum that should be to help golfers with questions they have about the swing. Perhaps their should be an "Instructors" forum and the geeks can speak their language to their hearts content.

[Pinball Wizard]

First a dolt, now a geek. I get it.

[golow]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

[Golfbeat]

@ Shilgy

 

The instructors have actually used simple language. It is the other members who are geeky. If I would tell my guys at the club that I was participating in a golf forum they would think that I would be weird.

[iteachgolf]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn’t a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing. It does happen in poor swings

 

Again Malaska in his own swing does what I said would be an issue, his club is too steep in transition which forces him to dump wrist angles the shallow plane and results in a flip through impact. To offset that he gets his upper and lower body well in front of the ball at impact and stays in flexion through impact so he doesn’t hit it fat.

[Shilgy]

If you say it's non sense you either don't understand it or don't want to.

You missed one-don't need to. Way too technical verbiage for most players. In my opinion of course. But you guys can discuss amongst yourselves that way and it makes sense. To most players seeking to improve it should be phrased less technically.

 

The other point missed is it could simply be nonsense from the start.

 

Again, it's non sense if you don't care about what's actually happening. These things have been researched and is out there for anyone to look at.

 

Agree! Using the terms Alpha, Beta and Gamma to describe rotational force (or twist to an object) is not rocket science or even remotely complicated. It's actually very simple - that even a child should be able to understand...if they want to. It's a well-known means when describing the three different applications of movement of the golf club in the y, x and z axis.

 

And yes Shilgy, I'm sure that all instructors use different terminology language when teaching their students...unless of course the student is already fully aware of these torque terms.

 

 

 

 

Now some of you (that want to understand or care to learn) know what is being done by the tour players that 99% of amateurs don't even know to do.

 

These tour pros (below) are applying a healthy dose of both Beta and Gamma torque beginning about midway in their downswing (which as can be seen helps promote a raised or bowed lead wrist and ample shaft lean at impact).

 

 

 

Can you teach a student what the pros do using laymans terms then or do you think you can teach it without the "These tour pros (below) are applying a healthy dose of both Beta and Gamma torque beginning about midway in their downswing " type of verbiage?

[golow]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

[Chote konez]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

You can. Tour players use the AMM data and rely on it.

[iteachgolf]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

I’m talking net torque. And again in Malaska’s own swing he’s applying the positive beta too much too early which actually causes it to shallow late by dumping it under, which is the opposite of what he’s trying to accomplish.

[Strike Force]

Can you teach a student what the pros do using laymans terms then or do you think you can teach it without the "These tour pros (below) are applying a healthy dose of both Beta and Gamma torque beginning about midway in their downswing " type of verbiage?

 

Sure, but why would I want to use layman's terms here on GolfWRX when discussing specific club movements when easily understood single words (Alpha, Beta, Gamma) are a whole lot better understood? The use of layman's terms would require a whole lot of very carefully worded details to explain something, whereas just one word (Alpha, Beta or Gamma) accomplishes the same thing. Throw in 'negative' or 'positive' and the movement being discussed is perfectly clear.

 

It's clear that you just don't want to learn the proper terms of three very simple movements of an object in the y, x and z axis. Or, you want to be difficult to get along with and argue about things...like someone else many of us know - who oftentimes 'Likes' your posts, but must have been put on 'quiet hours' recently.

[golow]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

I'm talking net torque. And again in Malaska's own swing he's applying the positive beta too much too early which actually causes it to shallow late by dumping it under, which is the opposite of what he's trying to accomplish.

 

Do his students do this too ?

 

 

At 3:00 she makes first swing after being taught the feel because she was getting dumped under on the course.

[Strike Force]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

I'm talking net torque. And again in Malaska's own swing he's applying the positive beta too much too early which actually causes it to shallow late by dumping it under, which is the opposite of what he's trying to accomplish.

 

iteachgolf - Don't you think Malaska is trying to get the point across to the masses (that don't come OTT) who fail to get the club to the outside of their hands appropriately and therefore flip, hit the ball with an open clubface and a glancing blow (lack compression) because they have a habit or tendency to drag the handle through impact? I think Mike is just trying to offset what those golfers do wrong with an exaggerated Beta movement. I realize he makes it seem in his video like he starts the positive Beta movement directly from the transition, but I seem to recall he has said the positive Beta starts down a ways from the top...

[Fort Worth Pro]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

Yes you can. Through inverse dynamics the net force, net torque, moment of force, and couple are all able to be calculated using 3D data.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

I'm talking net torque. And again in Malaska's own swing he's applying the positive beta too much too early which actually causes it to shallow late by dumping it under, which is the opposite of what he's trying to accomplish.

 

Do his students do this too ?

 

 

At 3:00 she makes first swing after being taught the feel because she was getting dumped under on the course.

 

She isn't under in her first swing that goes right. Her club face is open beyond belief and she has to flip save it.

[golow]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

You can. Tour players use the AMM data and rely on it.

 

No you can't - you can see vector of force from motion and deduce composite net if you understand biomechanics and anatomy ... net forces only. Tour pros and people I am surrounded by rely on AMM, KVest, Myswing, Gears et al to see what happens in terms of motion .... the how still has variability.

[Matt J]

Where's a good explanation of these torque descriptions? Beta, Delta, Gamma?

 

Anyone have a link?

[golow]

 

She isn't under in her first swing that goes right. Her club face is open beyond belief and she has to flip save it.

 

Never said she was under in her first swing .... she told her instructor that was what was happening on course.

[Strike Force]

Where's a good explanation of these torque descriptions? Beta, Delta, Gamma?

 

Anyone have a link?

 

Go back a few pages and read the posts. You'll see the explanation. And, it's Alpha, Beta and Gamma.

[golow]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

Yes you can. Through inverse dynamics the net force, net torque, moment of force, and couple are all able to be calculated using 3D data.

 

But you don't know when ! Isometrics vs concentrics

[golow]

When do the pecs, internal rotators and anterior deltoid (et al) activate in a MLB pitchers overhand throw .... when arm starts moving forward in relation to body or earlier ?

[iteachgolf]

Why do people think Beta torque/tumble force has to be applied late in downswing ? Is it because thats when you see the club move in that direction ?

 

Wouldn't the force be applied sooner to mitigate shallowing due to body rotation ? It can be equal and opposite with no tumble until it becomes greater than rotational force then you get shaft kick out no ?

 

I can't measure when muscles activate in the downswing (to much static on EMG) can anyone else ?

 

 

Edit: functor word

 

The torques can be calculated from 3D data. There is a negative beta force applied in transition and a positive one applied after p5. There isn't a positive beta torque being applied as soon as you start down in an efficient swing.

 

You can visualize net torques in video or 3D data because of expected motion but I'm not so sure you can calculate torques from 3D data. And by not so sure I really mean you can't.

 

I'm talking net torque. And again in Malaska's own swing he's applying the positive beta too much too early which actually causes it to shallow late by dumping it under, which is the opposite of what he's trying to accomplish.

 

Do his students do this too ?

 

 

At 3:00 she makes first swing after being taught the feel because she was getting dumped under on the course.

 

Yes many do. She wasn’t dumped under at all. Not even close really. She’s MORE under in the “after” swing in the later lesson videos. She fought hitting it right because she fans the clubface open massively in the backswing.

 

She’s not under

 

And she’s steep in transition which is why she actually got more under in after swing when she swung full speed in the later videos from same lesson.

 

Her transition, she’s not flattening it too much too soon. Shaft is pointed inside the ball

 

 

Here is the “after” where she’s actually more under

 

I have her 3D data with a driver I could post too that was taken after she was working with Mike.

[golow]

So why the success .... hands in vert shaft in takeaway ?

[iteachgolf]

So why the success .... hands in vert shaft in takeaway ?

 

She got better at the gamma portion to square the face by twisting the shaft

[iteachgolf]

 

Mike is similarly steep in transition and then dumps it under which requires a flip to square the face, so he then has head well in front the ball and stays in flexion so he doesn’t hit it fat

[TB07]

Can you teach a student what the pros do using laymans terms then or do you think you can teach it without the "These tour pros (below) are applying a healthy dose of both Beta and Gamma torque beginning about midway in their downswing " type of verbiage?

 

Sure, but why would I want to use layman's terms here on GolfWRX when discussing specific club movements when easily understood single words (Alpha, Beta, Gamma) are a whole lot better understood? The use of layman's terms would require a whole lot of very carefully worded details to explain something, whereas just one word (Alpha, Beta or Gamma) accomplishes the same thing. Throw in 'negative' or 'positive' and the movement being discussed is perfectly clear.

 

It's clear that you just don't want to learn the proper terms of three very simple movements of an object in the y, x and z axis. Or, you want to be difficult to get along with and argue about things...like someone else many of us know - who oftentimes 'Likes' your posts, but must have been put on 'quiet hours' recently.

 

Of course it can be said in layman terms. You can easily tell someone to shallow early and show them. However, when someone then asks about the merits of the "Malaska move" the science is necessary to explain why it's not ideal for most.

[golow]

 

Mike is similarly steep in transition and then dumps it under which requires a flip to square the face, so he then has head well in front the ball and stays in flexion so he doesn't hit it fat

 

Yeah but he's 63 years old .... doesn't mean much to me

[iteachgolf]

 

Mike is similarly steep in transition and then dumps it under which requires a flip to square the face, so he then has head well in front the ball and stays in flexion so he doesn't hit it fat

 

Yeah but he's 63 years old .... doesn't mean much to me

 

What does age have to do with it? Margarita does the same thing. She got more under late, not less. He’s doing exactly what I said would happen. Too steep in transition so it shallows late which results in dumping the club and dipping to square the face. She’s not old and the same thing happened

[golow]

It matters because he can't rotate to offset the force ... cuz he's old. Her rotation rate looks pretty feeble as well.

 

Do you think this feel would work if she or anyone rotated better, earlier, faster ? Wouldn't that person then shallow earlier and not get under late ?

[iteachgolf]

This is 3 months after the video lesson that you posted

 

She’s too deep and too steep in transition. Not too out worth shaft too flat

 

 

So then she has to shallow late and gets under

 

 

She needs to be FLATTER in transition so she can have club kick out sooner and arms need to be more out so they can work left sooner which would square the face (and kick club out) and get path way more neutral.