Lead Shoulder In Transition

[Golfbeat]

Guys, just go back and look at these old Stack & Tilt videos again!

Your confusing staying on left side with left shoulder down. You have to make a full shoulder turn behind the ball then left shoulder goes down and towards the target while head stays back. Same move GG talks about when he says left hip stays low, just a differnet feel to get the same result

 

I agree that it is not completely the same but certainly has a lot of elements. In one of the latest AMG videos they talk about how quickly you should be on your left side (halfway in the back swing) so the pressure shift very early to the left seems to be quite important. The player will have to be "stacked" left quite quickly in the swing. I remember that the S&T guys said that the pressure shift is for most amateurs too complicated timing wise and that they therefore advised to stay left if that is where you want to end up eventually.

[vernon]

I'm liking this thread........

[jerebear21]

I don’t know much about s&t but sounds like you lean into your left side? That’s not what I’m doing. My practice routing has me staying down longer than what I did before but I’m not leaning into the left side. Like kuch said you have to add another component to make it work. But that depends on you and your instructor. I suggest sending video to monte or dan instead of listening to us hacks trying to decipher the puzzle.

[Golfbeat]

I am just talking theory here. I just had a lesson in person with Monte last month. I need to work on a straighter posture and a transition moving the lower body left and backwards (10.30) with upper body closed longer to solve my early extension. The left shoulder down was also part of it. I was spinning my shoulders as well thinking that I needed to open my body quickly like a a GG power move. Not good for me.

[jerebear21]

Oh ok. Too much thinking for my taste and you have some random guy reading this thread and think they got the secret move which if not done properly is shank city. I can see it ruining someone’s golf game for sure.

[Golfbeat]

I don’t know much about s&t but sounds like you lean into your left side? That’s not what I’m doing. My practice routing has me staying down longer than what I did before but I’m not leaning into the left side. Like kuch said you have to add another component to make it work. But that depends on you and your instructor. I suggest sending video to monte or dan instead of listening to us hacks trying to decipher the puzzle.

 

I actually think that you need to feel as if you are leaning into your left side. I assume that this is exactly why Dan does the down hill drill but it would be good to hear this from Dan or Monte.

[mtg]

I don’t cruise the instruction threads much, but this one caught my eye. I’ll add my $0.02. I like how some guys are using the word “fall,” as the lowering is an anti-pressure move. In other words if you’re used to a lot of hip thrust at the ball/EE you probably have a sensation of too much ground pressure in your transition. Much too much firing of the glutes, quads to leverage the shaft early. The lowering movement involves a “softer” transition with hip flexion motions, i.e. hip flexor contraction, maybe some light hammy contraction - basically opposite of what I said above.

 

This isn’t to say there won’t be added pressure if you measure it in certain spots, but the overall feel in transition should be less ground pressure for many golfers.

 

Per the left side bend. There is some as you reach the top of your backswing and some additionally in transition. It goes hand in hand with a feeling of the spine being in lordosis. It only works if the hips are going into flexion though. If you are extending the hips at all the body will simply not allow any feeling of left side bend. The left side bend is a fleeting feel, as by mid downswing you most defiantly won’t be there anymore.

 

This type of transition almost always coincides with a good deal of right arm bend at impact. As the shaft is loaded late (more powerful). The golfer just allows the loaded shaft to smash into the back of the ball as the torso rotates with the upper right arm pretty snug to the right side. Tiger is a huge exception, his release was much better matched to this transition early in his career.

[jerebear21]

I don’t know much about s&t but sounds like you lean into your left side? That’s not what I’m doing. My practice routing has me staying down longer than what I did before but I’m not leaning into the left side. Like kuch said you have to add another component to make it work. But that depends on you and your instructor. I suggest sending video to monte or dan instead of listening to us hacks trying to decipher the puzzle.

 

I actually think that you need to feel as if you are leaning into your left side. I assume that this is exactly why Dan does the down hill drill but it would be good to hear this from Dan or Monte.

 

For me I need to feel staying down longer. Could be leaning. Could be not. Hard to interpret for another individual.

[mtg]

I am not a fan of a downhill drill to encourage this move. This allows gravity to accomplish what you need to figure out yourself. In fact what you need to do is overcome the opposite situation. Hit balls off an uphill lie and STILL attain this action - then you'll truly be training your body to do it off any lie.

[Golf nerd]

Guys, just go back and look at these old Stack & Tilt videos again!

Your confusing staying on left side with left shoulder down. You have to make a full shoulder turn behind the ball then left shoulder goes down and towards the target while head stays back. Same move GG talks about when he says left hip stays low, just a differnet feel to get the same result

 

I agree that it is not completely the same but certainly has a lot of elements. In one of the latest AMG videos they talk about how quickly you should be on your left side (halfway in the back swing) so the pressure shift very early to the left seems to be quite important. The player will have to be "stacked" left quite quickly in the swing. I remember that the S&T guys said that the pressure shift is for most amateurs too complicated timing wise and that they therefore advised to stay left if that is where you want to end up eventually.

 

I have three S&T DVD's and their stock model for irons at setup is 55%left and 45% weight on right foot for a right handed player. At the top its 53% left and 47% right and at impact 80% left and 20% right.

So it's pretty centred till impact. They don't promote 80% weight left all time. However, in the driver video Troy Matesson has done that on purpose (80% weight left) and had more speed (117mph) and a slight draw. So it wasn't an issue for him.

 

Mike has done a drill where he kept his left shoulder down longer and tried to move his hands and arms down faster (left arm of the chest move) to not lose his angles to soon. His intention is very much on elbows together to facilitate that coordination.

[Nard_S]

Guys, just go back and look at these old Stack & Tilt videos again!

Your confusing staying on left side with left shoulder down. You have to make a full shoulder turn behind the ball then left shoulder goes down and towards the target while head stays back. Same move GG talks about when he says left hip stays low, just a differnet feel to get the same result

 

I agree that it is not completely the same but certainly has a lot of elements. In one of the latest AMG videos they talk about how quickly you should be on your left side (halfway in the back swing) so the pressure shift very early to the left seems to be quite important. The player will have to be "stacked" left quite quickly in the swing. I remember that the S&T guys said that the pressure shift is for most amateurs too complicated timing wise and that they therefore advised to stay left if that is where you want to end up eventually.

 

I have three S&T DVD's and their stock model for irons at setup is 55%left and 45% weight on right foot for a right handed player. At the top its 53% left and 47% right and at impact 80% left and 20% right.

So it's pretty centred till impact. They don't promote 80% weight left all time. However, in the driver video Troy Matesson has done that on purpose (80% weight left) and had more speed (117mph) and a slight draw. So it wasn't an issue for him.

 

Mike has done a drill where he kept his left shoulder down longer and tried to move his hands and arms down faster (left arm of the chest move) to not lose his angles to soon. His intention is very much on elbows together to facilitate that coordination.

 

Found this to work well for me and obligatory for low left side move to work.

 

I think it's more productive to think of this as more of a crunching of body angles than of a weight shift move. Hips and shoulder get or stay lower to the ball and window widens to bring arms through. The left arm off the chest move brings elbows "down out and forward" as advocated by the Pros here and puts you in a position to fire through.

 

I've struggled navigating from transition to P6 for a long time, this is the clearest path traversed and feels completely right. I hit 120 balls and felt fresh doing it which speaks to it's efficiency and balanced use of the body.

[glk]

To me this video shows a great rear view of the move. The left shoulder goes down as the body drifts to the left at the very end of the backswing with the arms still staying up - after that very, very short drift I'm starting to rotate and pulling in the direction that the shaft is pointing - the ole quiver pull feel - I'm basically looking to connect my arms to my core and use body rotation to help bring my arms down to the delivery position. Drills I like is to do rope swings where you have to get the rope to release in front of you - pull down with your arms and you'll release at or behind the ball. Need to use body rotation. And I'm not using passive arms. Being a life long member of I get my main power source from my arms - this moves feel weak at first but it certainly is not. I use the short step drill to feel the "fall". I also use some delivery position pumps, or just hit from the delivery position, too. I don't say I have it done yet but it's getting there.

 

[mtg]

One other area I think will help a lot of you guys get this is the left leg action in transition. One myth that I think needs to be debunked is the Snead squat/left knee to the target idea. Another, wonkier way to think of it is left hip external rotation. This has been taught a lot over the years and can wreak some havoc if you're trying to do anything like what's being discussed above.

 

The action described above promotes the lower spine to come under your torso. It inhibits rotation of the pelvis. It will make your shoulders want to rise, not fall. Any feeling of left side bend/left shoulder lowering/ spinal lordosis requires an opposite action of the left hip and knee. For the pelvis to rotate open the left knee almost needs to stay pinched in, pointed at the ball. In actuality the left knee will appear to open a little because the overall complex of the pelvis, femur are opening to the target massively in the transition; but when you look at how much the pelvis rotates compared to the knee you'll see the difference.

 

You might not be in this camp, but if for some reason you're still trying to drive your left knee at the target, or create space between the knees or something, stop doing that... IMHO. Take a look at Justin Thomas from face on to get a sense of this. His pelvis rotates 30-50 degrees in the first few beats of his downswing where the left knee barely moves rotationally - this equates to actual internal rotation of the left hip - opposite of what many would have you attempt.

[pusb365]

Another one here who was told to work on this by iteach!

 

I have a sever case of tilting my shoulders (lead shoulder rises, trail shoulder dips) too much. Feeling the left shoulder stay down is a game changer. Still working on it but when I get it right it feels so pure.

 

Also as a swing thought I feel like I'm trying to hit a massive pull to a target about 30 yards left of my actual target. This helps me open up my shoulders.

[bogeypro]

Michael Breed had an article in GD this month. One of the things he said was critical was moving the lead shoulder towards the lead hip during transition for solid contact. I had stand up to see what I do. My lead shoulder wants to move up not down and I get a lot of early right side tilt. Is this a basic I've missed after playing all these years?

 

this discussion seems to have gotten on a tangent of confusion....

 

I think this is another one of those "tips" that gets people down a rabbit hole and can ruin a swing, if taken out of context. If you have someone that doesn't turn your shoulders enough in the backswing, telling them to get that left shoulder to move downward during transition can be very misunderstood and be detrimental. I could see someone misunderstanding this and creating some sort of upper body dive where the right shoulder begins to move out and down and over the top. I would love to see the Breed episode to see exactly what he is talking about.

 

Looking at the left shoulder in transition...

As AMG has pointed out in the pros vs ams series on lateral movement in the swing, many ams create that reverse K position and try to keep it through the swing.... To that guy, the feeling of getting his left shoulder to his left hip will be helpful to get him to get stacked on the downswing.

 

Personally, I like the basic helicopter drill that Clay Ballard is doing in this video. People can feel how their shoulders work while maintaining posture...without something that could be taken out of context like what Breed is saying.

 

[glk]

Breed GD article

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/michael-breed-try-my-secret-move-to-flush-it-from-any-lie

[airjammer]

Breed GD article

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/michael-breed-try-my-secret-move-to-flush-it-from-any-lie

 

GD has contributed to the average golf never getting better. That article and 99% others that has been published in GD are incomplete at best.

 

If you don’t keep the left shoulder down till about half way down on the downswing your going to hit it fat every single time and that is the hard part.

[bogeypro]

Breed GD article

 

https://www.golfdige...it-from-any-lie

 

well, his shoulder turn looks too flat to begin with so maybe he needs to lunge down at the ball to keep from thinning it.

[Millbrook]

To me this video shows a great rear view of the move. The left shoulder goes down as the body drifts to the left at the very end of the backswing with the arms still staying up - after that very, very short drift I'm starting to rotate and pulling in the direction that the shaft is pointing - the ole quiver pull feel - I'm basically looking to connect my arms to my core and use body rotation to help bring my arms down to the delivery position. Drills I like is to do rope swings where you have to get the rope to release in front of you - pull down with your arms and you'll release at or behind the ball. Need to use body rotation. And I'm not using passive arms. Being a life long member of I get my main power source from my arms - this moves feel weak at first but it certainly is not. I use the short step drill to feel the "fall". I also use some delivery position pumps, or just hit from the delivery position, too. I don't say I have it done yet but it's getting there.

 

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This video and part 2 are great - thanks

[GungHoGolf]

New vid from AMG is relevant

 

[Nard_S]

^^^^ Hits home.

 

Had the the arm drop release working 1 range session but the next 2, no dice. Tabled the intent till figured it out more. Had an idea but not as concrete as video. Mine was a bit more obtuse. Even with all that mess I made progress with pivoting off of low left side and to gain greater leverage without getting too lateral.........baby steps.

[dap]

Lead shoulder down is only a feel. It just prevents early tilt. There are just a handful of players on tour who actually lower their lead shoulder in the transition and they do it by compressing their whole upper body down to achieve it. Their head lowers along with the lead shoulder. Try not lowering your head while lowering the lead shoulder. If you can do it then your anatomy is not human.

[glk]

Remember when folks used to talk about Justin Rose practice swing as Malaska based. Light bulb went off for me when i was doing this myself as a pump drill down to delivery position via Tyler. Pretty much left tilt, left shoulder down.

 

[Nard_S]

Lead shoulder down is only a feel. It just prevents early tilt. There are just a handful of players on tour who actually lower their lead shoulder in the transition and they do it by compressing their whole upper body down to achieve it. Their head lowers along with the lead shoulder. Try not lowering your head while lowering the lead shoulder. If you can do it then your anatomy is not human.

 

Yeah,completely agree. it's just I have early tilt and left shoulder gets too high too soon.The crunch, dip thing does work for me to gravitate to a more rotational controlled lower body but I'm agnostic about it Think the GG/ Snead leg move is a valid way for a duffer to reel in legs gone wild. But watching Pros,most have very quiet and efficient knee action.The tilt that the videos represent seems a higher goal worthy of pursuing but like I've lamented, I have other issues stopping me from pursuing it better.

[sbark]

so ........the foward / lower lean of the Left shoulder, with the movement as the downswing progress to a reverse K...........is Jim Waldrons "tilt switch", which he states I beleive adds alot of power to a swing?

 

I asking.....not telling :)

[GungHoGolf]

Remember when folks used to talk about Justin Rose practice swing as Malaska based. Light bulb went off for me when i was doing this myself as a pump drill down to delivery position via Tyler. Pretty much left tilt, left shoulder down.

 

 

Rose’s slow-motion rehearsal swings last week at Bay Hill were pretty much the opposite move. It’s like he’s a WRXer switching between Malaska and GG.

[Nard_S]

so ........the foward / lower lean of the Left shoulder, with the movement as the downswing progress to a reverse K...........is Jim Waldrons "tilt switch", which he states I beleive adds alot of power to a swing?

 

I asking.....not telling :)

 

I'll give this a go. Not an expert so....

 

Yeah, it's essentially "tilt switch" as JW advocates but in actuality both are keeping shoulders on plane while pivoting off/against both feet. The reverse K is not the desired outcome. The upper spine staying relatively centered throughout is with the momentum bringing it all over left side on follow though.

 

EDIT: May have miss read the reverse K thing, perhaps meant the spine tilt at impact, so yeah there's a tilt, reverse K finish shows you how old school I am lol.

[GungHoGolf]

Another new video from the AMG guys is relevant:

 

[Jkap110]

Just watch Alex Noren’s pre-shot routine...

[tinman143]

This vid from Shaun Webb seems right in line with this move.

 

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