Don't Bump

[GolfTurkey]

Some thread here, just what all confused golfers need.

 

First, and in no disparaging terms, we have Monte demonstrating Bump, Dump, and Turn in a video only to later post the video isn't really promoting a bump. Then an AMG video suggests dropping a ball held between the knees, or even by implication dropping a range basket held by the knees, is not a good drill as it may have golfers chase a look by artificially separating the legs as an intent instead of allowing dynamics to produce the appearance.

 

Next we have FtWorthPro defining for us that which makes up a proper lateral motion using current "good" tour players as his opinion and measurement template, making it sound as if there is one, and only one, way to employ lateral motion which we all know is not correct by any stretch. Again, nothing wrong with a claim backed by measured analysis, however to imply, if that was the case, tour players not moving laterally in that manner would not be "good" players simply fails to recognize tour players from other eras. It's also interesting that Monte's Bump and Dump video would be type movement not anywhere close to what FtWorthPro is suggesting good players do. They seem to stand in complete opposition, which is fine too.

 

As for AMG, in my estimation nothing more than pure unadulterated marketing overkill. Now if AMG can start to address some of the type questions presented by juststeve, then I'm listening.

 

 

 

Yeah, just current good players ?

 

I like the Snead one. It's quite obvious that his right knee moves down and towards the target in transition. It just moves less than the left, creating the squat look, it's not rotating externally.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

I will say unequivocally that a little bump never slowed anybody down.....

[CoiledUP]

Here's another, and we love how Jackie @ 2:30 puts a slight smack-down on stacked over operations because you can't throw properly from stacked. So yes, don't bump, just throw.

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Live Jackie Burke jr. He is a treasure and fantastic. This video though is nothing. First, it has nothing measured. It's purely anecdotal. Secondly, Jackie is correct about the load to the right in the backswing. Lastly, what in the world does throwing a club up in the air on a horizontal plane going to teach us about how a body needs to move to hit a ball that is on the ground? Try again. Always great to listen to Jackie even if it's irrelevant to the matter st hand.

 

What can we learn? First, as stated, Jackie is correct about the load into the right in the back swing and its role in releasing the club. I agree, but he's known that for years and it was more than likely never "measured" back in his day, but the old professionals knew it was true or else those employing it wouldn't have used it, nor would probably many others if charged with putting bread on the family table.

 

Secondly, a body doesn't necessarily "need to move" any one particular way to be efficiently used, measurement or no measurement, and if you're not aware of how a throw intention speaks to load properties, and how that load reaches the ground then not much can I can do for you. Jackie is saying you better be in a position to throw from the top, and this would not result in a eventual dynamic in which the middle of the rib cage is stacked on top of, and in front of, the pelvic center at left arm parallel on the return. I've shown both Worsham and Burke videos in support of my comments. I could post scores of other professionals not employing that unnecessary and convoluted approach to hitting a ball on the ground suggested by you and AMG, as I'm sure you could post several supporting your claim. I mean convoluted messes are fine, but not necessary- just ask the old time anecdotal pros, they know. Lastly, if you are concerned, as you appear to be, with a ball on the ground instead of what is out in front of you down the fairway I might suggest lessons- say, perhaps a lesson in throwing from Jackie Burke.

 

So it's totally relevant to the matter hand.

[glk]

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Not seeing center of rib cage being stacked over and in front of pelvic center.

Cause he's hitting a driver - stacked is an iron swing, especially short iron. Longer the club, and especially if tee, one needs to have more axis tilt with the ribcage.

 

 

[jut111]

Here's another, and we love how Jackie @ 2:30 puts a slight smack-down on stacked over operations because you can't throw properly from stacked. So yes, don't bump, just throw.

[media=]

[/media]

 

Live Jackie Burke jr. He is a treasure and fantastic. This video though is nothing. First, it has nothing measured. It's purely anecdotal. Secondly, Jackie is correct about the load to the right in the backswing. Lastly, what in the world does throwing a club up in the air on a horizontal plane going to teach us about how a body needs to move to hit a ball that is on the ground? Try again. Always great to listen to Jackie even if it's irrelevant to the matter st hand.

 

Thank goodness JB didn’t have access to 3D data. . . or other ‘measurements’ of tour players back in the day. Otherwise, he would have been irrelevant. Give us a break with your data already.

 

Nobody forced you to read it. Some of us aren't afraid of information and enjoy the discussion.

[CoiledUP]

Cause he's hitting a driver - stacked is an iron swing, especially short iron. Longer the club, and especially if tee, one needs to have more axis tilt with the ribcag

 

That's not accurate either, maybe blame 3D. One can perform the convoluted mess with driver too- the aiming point is more rearward but not a big challenge at all, just stay where you are and move, but the shaft better be aimed at the zipper area at address. I do it all the time if, when using driver, I want to get in touch with my full Lexi.

 

Look, the convoluted mess swing, which is actually a great swing, is like a toy slinky- The Slinky Swing. Put each end of a slinky in your palm and move your palms as if juggling. The stretch and compression cycles work in opposition while the slinky is stationary attached to the palms, or the ground.

[NikeGolferTX]

I think the moral of the post is you can really do anything you want in the golf swing if YOU are efficient, consistent and know where the ball is going.

Take Patrick Reed for example: He stalls through impact with very active hands/arms and still wins the masters.

 

This is why I don't personally follow a single swing philosophy, but take what works for me from several and create my own swing.

I think we can all agree that there are certain fundamentals that you need, but do what works for you.

 

It's all about troubleshooting & ownership.

[CoiledUP]

Are there any other sports where using the tool to hit the ball requires the correct motion and set up of

 

Feet

Knees

Hips

Torso

Shoulders

Head

Palms

Fingers

Wrists

Elbows

Tail bone

Ear lobes

 

Perhaps 3D technology is like a security blanket, or pacifier if you will, for those not fully aware of myriad possibilities and match ups in front of us if we just look and respond.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Here's another, and we love how Jackie @ 2:30 puts a slight smack-down on stacked over operations because you can't throw properly from stacked. So yes, don't bump, just throw.

[media=]

[/media]

 

Live Jackie Burke jr. He is a treasure and fantastic. This video though is nothing. First, it has nothing measured. It's purely anecdotal. Secondly, Jackie is correct about the load to the right in the backswing. Lastly, what in the world does throwing a club up in the air on a horizontal plane going to teach us about how a body needs to move to hit a ball that is on the ground? Try again. Always great to listen to Jackie even if it's irrelevant to the matter st hand.

 

What can we learn? First, as stated, Jackie is correct about the load into the right in the back swing and its role in releasing the club. I agree, but he's known that for years and it was more than likely never "measured" back in his day, but the old professionals knew it was true or else those employing it wouldn't have used it, nor would probably many others if charged with putting bread on the family table.

 

Secondly, a body doesn't necessarily "need to move" any one particular way to be efficiently used, measurement or no measurement, and if you're not aware of how a throw intention speaks to load properties, and how that load reaches the ground then not much can I can do for you. Jackie is saying you better be in a position to throw from the top, and this would not result in a eventual dynamic in which the middle of the rib cage is stacked on top of, and in front of, the pelvic center at left arm parallel on the return. I've shown both Worsham and Burke videos in support of my comments. I could post scores of other professionals not employing that unnecessary and convoluted approach to hitting a ball on the ground suggested by you and AMG, as I'm sure you could post several supporting your claim. I mean convoluted messes are fine, but not necessary- just ask the old time anecdotal pros, they know. Lastly, if you are concerned, as you appear to be, with a ball on the ground instead of what is out in front of you down the fairway I might suggest lessons- say, perhaps a lesson in throwing from Jackie Burke.

 

So it's totally relevant to the matter hand.

 

1)pressure shift to the right....still not part of this discussion as nobody is arguing against it. Not sure why you think it's even an issue.

 

2) certain movements are more efficient for speed and power and yes, the body "needs" to move in those ways to be efficient. For a throwing intention as you call it, look at people THROWING the hammer, discus, and shot. Upper body is leading/stacked on top of the lower. Worshom is absolutely stacked upper on top of lower and if you can't see it then it's either a) you don't know how to look at it or b) you just don't want to see it. Because it is a 2d image of a 3D event you have to remember we are talking about the center of the body. Because his hips are more open than his shoulders, the middle of the rib cage is more forward relative to his sternum than the center of the pelvis is relative to his zipper. Worshom has very little lateral move. One of the weakest I have seen but it is still there and he is most definitely stacked upper on top of lower.

 

3) the ball being in the ground and not up around waist high absolutely changes the plane and therefore the body orientation. Not sure how this discussion is even a thing other than you being obtuse about the reality of what happens in almost every great player throughout history (there is literally always one or two exceptions to every rule. Doesn't mean we discard the rule)

[CoiledUP]

1)pressure shift to the right....still not part of this discussion as nobody is arguing against it. Not sure why you think it's even an issue.

 

1) Never said it was an issue, unless I'm mistaken you entered "the load to the right" into the discussion in post #85- I just agreed with your assessment and attempted to expand the thought a little.

 

2) Isn't the sternum the default center of the rib cage, as well as any continuation of that location inside the body cavity- much like when saying the overall center of gravity is 3 inches behind the navel? So I guess my confusion may be, if it is indeed confusion, how does a sternum get ahead of itself?

 

 

 

 

3) Agree, body orientation changes but is not something one has to think about. If one does, and needs 3D to figure it out then again I suggest 3D technology might be like a security blanket. Just my opinion.

[Fort Worth Pro]

1)pressure shift to the right....still not part of this discussion as nobody is arguing against it. Not sure why you think it's even an issue.

 

1) Never said it was an issue, unless I'm mistaken you entered "the load to the right" into the discussion in post #85- I just agreed with your assessment and attempted to expand the thought a little.

 

2) Isn't the sternum the default center of the rib cage, as well as any continuation of that location inside the body cavity- much like when saying the overall center of gravity is 3 inches behind the navel? So I guess my confusion may be, if it is indeed confusion, how does a sternum get ahead of itself?

 

 

 

 

3) Agree, body orientation changes but is not something one has to think about. If one does, and needs 3D to figure it out then again I suggest 3D technology might be like a security blanket. Just my opinion.

 

Center of rib cage is not the sternum. That would be the front of the rib cage. Center of rib cage is between sternum and spine. When backnis to target the center of the rib cage is more toward the target than the sternum. You understand I am not saying that you hit the ball with the center of the rib cage in front of the center of the pelvis, right? They will have reversed starting just after left arm parallel.

[QMany]

Interesting topic. I was on a huge GG kick for awhile and I definitely went too far with the external knee leg work. My last lesson with Dan was around me not extending enough from right before p6 to impact and it seems like its been a common occurrence in my own swing.

 

I now strive to have the left hip work around while the pressure moves to my left heel and inner right foot then focus on extending up into impact from just before p6. I'm now trying to just keep the leg work simple but I do like using the resistance band that you'll see Julian Suri use from Dan's instagram.

 

Just curious, do you feel you just overdid one part of GG's teaching? I say that because I think he teaches the exact thing you're working on now, getting the left hip around to P5(?) and then a "kick up," or extending.

 

I'm pulling for Julian, happy to see him having success with Dan.

[CoiledUP]

As I thought, and mentioned, located inside the body cavity. Using that description then yes, I agree, the rib cage is more toward the target than the sternum, so progress on that front.

 

I fully understand you are not saying to hit the ball with the center of the rib cage in front of the center of the pelvis, that would be ridiculous. It's how, when, and where that center of the rib cage is used from transition to lead arm parallel, and I don't suspect we will find common ground on that one.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[Kuuuch]

Interesting topic. I was on a huge GG kick for awhile and I definitely went too far with the external knee leg work. My last lesson with Dan was around me not extending enough from right before p6 to impact and it seems like its been a common occurrence in my own swing.

 

I now strive to have the left hip work around while the pressure moves to my left heel and inner right foot then focus on extending up into impact from just before p6. I'm now trying to just keep the leg work simple but I do like using the resistance band that you'll see Julian Suri use from Dan's instagram.

 

Just curious, do you feel you just overdid one part of GG's teaching? I say that because I think he teaches the exact thing you're working on now, getting the left hip around to P5(?) and then a "kick up," or extending.

 

I'm pulling for Julian, happy to see him having success with Dan.

 

Yeah definitely overdid the transition move and didn't do enough work extending up through impact. Dan even pointed out when I first started getting lessons with him that my weight in transition would even more out to my outer right foot which was no good. Somewhere in the middle is always best IMO. Don't need right knee going internal too soon but don't need to go crazy external either.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

When using 3D are you using gathered information or "simulated" in Canadian Nintendo format? If gathered or captured information, how big of a sample?

Esteemed Novia Scotian universities my friend

[CoiledUP]

Is Demaret's center of rib cage ahead of center of pelvis up to lead arm parallel on the return?

[Fort Worth Pro]

Is Demaret's center of rib cage ahead of center of pelvis up to lead arm parallel on the return?

 

Find a usable angle and I will answer. Targetside of the player on a face on will always appears more tilted. Camera too far back on a face on will always appear more stacked.

[CoiledUP]

Find a usable angle and I will answer. Targetside of the player on a face on will always appears more tilted. Camera too far back on a face on will always appear more stacked.

 

I'm aware of camera issues, but angle was chosen specifically for the question. I don't believe a different angle would be required, so let me ask in a different manner. If both centers at the top are more or less where they began, and given Demaret's transition is lower body led, how does the rib cage center lead the parade to, at least, lead arm parallel?

 

[Fort Worth Pro]

Find a usable angle and I will answer. Targetside of the player on a face on will always appears more tilted. Camera too far back on a face on will always appear more stacked.

 

I'm aware of camera issues, but angle was chosen specifically for the question. I don't believe a different angle would be required, so let me ask in a different manner. If both centers at the top are more or less where they began, and given Demaret's transition is lower body led, how does the rib cage center lead the parade to, at least, lead arm parallel?

 

 

Again, you can't see where he is relative to address or even where is centers were relative to each other at address because of the camera angle. Playing the camera angle game is what stack and tilt did. No reason to go down that road

[CoiledUP]

Ok, forget video and gif. The question is if both centers at the top are more or less where they began and a player's transition begins with a lower body lead, and continues leading, how does a rib cage center lead the parade to, at least, lead arm parallel?

[jut111]

Ok, forget video and gif. The question is if both centers at the top are more or less where they began and a player's transition begins with a lower body lead, and continues leading, how does a rib cage center lead the parade to, at least, lead arm parallel?

 

[CoiledUP]

Ok, forget video and gif. The question is if both centers at the top are more or less where they began and a player's transition begins with a lower body lead, and continues leading, how does a rib cage center lead the parade to, at least, lead arm parallel?

 

 

3 minutes and 10 seconds of some solid ideas, but incomplete. The entire video starts with the premise suggesting a reverse K set up may lead to pushes and hooks which couldn't be farther from the truth- almost turned it off at that point. Thankfully, he later qualified his remarks by saying the amateur may try to maintain the reverse K throughout which is true, or even increase it- not a good idea in my opinion. However, he left out the possibility of starting out reverse K at address and arriving at the top with the centers stacked on top of each other. In that case, secondary tilt would place the rib cage center behind the pelvic center if the lower body leads.

[ebrasmus21]

Damn this thread has gotten deep.

 

[Silky]

Ok, forget video and gif. The question is if both centers at the top are more or less where they began and a player's transition begins with a lower body lead, and continues leading, how does a rib cage center lead the parade to, at least, lead arm parallel?

 

 

Great 3d information revealing mechanical principle working in a proper golf swing.

Analyzing the projected 2d FO view plane with just the up/down and backward/forward directions, when the arms+club is above the rib cage the acceleration of the rib cage is forward; OTOH, when the arms+club is below the rib cage the acceleration should be backward or there should be braking action or even backward motion of the rib cage. To keep accelerating forward in the latter case induces negative leverage, that is, slowing down the arm+club forward speed. The braking may be the secret to "blasting the left arm off the chest".

[CoiledUP]

Great 3d information revealing mechanical principle working in a proper golf swing.

Analyzing the projected 2d FO view plane with just the up/down and backward/forward directions, when the arms+club is above the rib cage the acceleration of the rib cage is forward; OTOH, when the arms+club is below the rib cage the acceleration should be backward or there should be braking action or even backward motion of the rib cage. To keep accelerating forward in the latter case induces negative leverage, that is, slowing down the arm+club forward speed. The braking may be the secret to "blasting the left arm off the chest".

 

Agree, not bad for what it is. However it is more accurate to say it is information revealing mechanical principle working in one of many different, but proper, golf swings.

 

Braking works if one chooses, but so does turning into the lead arm and not braking. The lead arm leaves the chest, but why anyone would want, if that is the implication, to intentionally blast the arm off the chest is beyond me- we are not playing frisbe golf. The power source is the body, not the arms.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Great 3d information revealing mechanical principle working in a proper golf swing.

Analyzing the projected 2d FO view plane with just the up/down and backward/forward directions, when the arms+club is above the rib cage the acceleration of the rib cage is forward; OTOH, when the arms+club is below the rib cage the acceleration should be backward or there should be braking action or even backward motion of the rib cage. To keep accelerating forward in the latter case induces negative leverage, that is, slowing down the arm+club forward speed. The braking may be the secret to "blasting the left arm off the chest".

 

Agree, not bad for what it is. However it is more accurate to say it is information revealing mechanical principle working in one of many different, but proper, golf swings.

 

Braking works if one chooses, but so does turning into the lead arm and not braking. The lead arm leaves the chest, but why anyone would want, if that is the implication, to intentionally blast the arm off the chest is beyond me- we are not playing frisbe golf. The power source is the body, not the arms.

 

The rib cage brakes on full swings in EVERY good player. This is not up for discussion. It is not intentional but t absolutely happens. As for your question from above. You can't see demaret's lateral motion from that angle in his upper. IF a great player was setup in a pronounced reverse k AND didn't change their orientation as they turned you would be correct. I haven't seen one in 3D and the swings of the best throughout time do not show that

[CoiledUP]

Describe braking, I'm assuming you're describing a slowing down? Surely the rib cage does not come to a complete rotational stop, that would be nonsense.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Describe braking, I'm assuming you're describing a slowing down? Surely the rib cage does not come to a complete rotational stop, that would be nonsense.

 

Is this a serious question? Of course it's slowing/deceleration of the rib cage and not a complete stop.

[CoiledUP]

Describe braking, I'm assuming you're describing a slowing down? Surely the rib cage does not come to a complete rotational stop, that would be nonsense.

 

Is this a serious question? Of course it's slowing/deceleration of the rib cage and not a complete stop.

 

Of course it's a serious question or else I wouldn't have presented it. Just trying to lock into some of the descriptors used around the site which, by the way, would certainly not be my choice- like braking or drifting. LOL. In fact, I don't know why anyone would actually need to know that when all they have to do is throw it, but that might confuse you perhaps since you don't appear to know how a throw demonstrated on a horizontal plane gets to the ground, or at least that was your implication in a previous post. Do you actually not know how a throwing motion finds the ground? I find it hard to believe that any teaching professional would not know how that piece works. But does the rib cage actually have to slow down. The answer is no, it can remain steadily paced.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Describe braking, I'm assuming you're describing a slowing down? Surely the rib cage does not come to a complete rotational stop, that would be nonsense.

 

Is this a serious question? Of course it's slowing/deceleration of the rib cage and not a complete stop.

 

Of course it's a serious question or else I wouldn't have presented it. Just trying to lock into some of the descriptors used around the site which, by the way, would certainly not be my choice- like braking or drifting. LOL. In fact, I don't know why anyone would actually need to know that when all they have to do is throw it, but that might confuse you perhaps since you don't appear to know how a throw demonstrated on a horizontal plane gets to the ground, or at least that was your implication in a previous post. Do you actually not know how a throwing motion finds the ground? I find it hard to believe that any teaching professional would not know how that piece works. But does the rib cage actually have to slow down. The answer is no, it can remain steadily paced.

 

I don't use the term braking personally but I know others who do. Not super hard to figure out it's meaning.

 

A swing on a horizontal plane gets to the ground? The orientation of the ball on the ground absolutely changes the dynamics needed compared to a swing on a slightly upward plane like a baseball. Also, everything throwing motion moves laterally before it rotates which was the original point of this entire thread.

 

Yes the rib cage actually has to slow down and does in every good full swing. EVERY good full swing has the body decelerating at impact.