Purpose of Counterbalanced Driver Shafts?

[SlamMan]

I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of the purpose or intended user of a counterbalanced driver shaft. Is the intent of the higher balance point so that you can use a heavier head or add more weight to the head achieving a heavier club weight without a high swing weight? Or is it to achieve a lighter swing weight without going too low with the total club weight? Searching old threads I seem to find examples of both. Also, is there a particular type of swing that a counterbalanced shaft works well with?

 

I like to tinker and try things so I may just have to find an inexpensive one to try out but it will be good to get some feedback so I know what direction to go. Any feedback is appreciated.

[mcs4]

Is the intent of the higher balance point so that you can use a heavier head or add more weight to the head achieving a heavier club weight without a high swing weight? Or is it to achieve a lighter swing weight without going too low with the total club weight?

 

There isn't one exact intended purpose, but those are two ways you can use them. I've heard it said that some of the pros using them believe they have picked up some distance because it allows them to increase the overall weight of the head while keeping the precise swingweight they prefer. Of course, that only makes sense if you are strong enough to increase the weight of your clubhead without losing clubhead speed.

[Stuart_G]

The main purpose was to allow reasonable swing weights with 'normal' head weights at the longer stock playing lengths the OEM's were putting out.

 

Basically the head designers didn't want to loose any discretionary weight, the club marketing folks didn't want to loose any playing length (since distance sells, not accuracy) but that would have resulted in crazy swing weights - so off to the shaft manufacturers to help bail them out.

 

Yes added head weight at the shorter lengths can help ball speed but it's really not by very much at all. 10 gm extra head weight might get you only about 1-1.5 mph of added ball speed. And most counterbalanced shafts wouldn't even allow that much gain in head weight. More like 4-8 gm.

 

Bottom line - it's not something worth worrying about. And there is no standardization to what is or is not counterbalanced - you can't depend on the labels used in the specs sheets on whether it's counter balanced or not to tell you anything.

[jrr]

Just went through this process while having my Steelhead 3w shortened by 1/2". I explained to the fitter I needed to get to stock D2 as possible. He put the weight under the grip to "balance the shaft to my Steelhead 5W, also 1/2" short and no grip weights which I hit great.

 

Net result, I could not hit the ball further than my 5w or even my 6 iron. I had no control over what planet it was on. Had him remove the grip weights and the feel difference was huge. Controllable and big time long. He said the sw was D2 now.

 

I guess it worked for Jack and others, but never again will I get talked into counter anything.

[Stuart_G]

Just went through this process while having my Steelhead 3w shortened by 1/2". I explained to the fitter I needed to get to stock D2 as possible. He put the weight under the grip to "balance the shaft to my Steelhead 5W, also 1/2" short and no grip weights which I hit great.

 

The naming conventions makes it seems like it is but adding butt weight or grip weight really is not the same as using a counterbalanced shaft.

 

But yes, when it comes to adding weight under the grip, it's very unpredictable how people will respond.

[ChipNRun]

Golfers have tried counterbalancing for all of the reasons that SlamMan suggested. But, counterbalancing sparks a lot of debate on what it actually does. On a rainy day, Google around golfdom and you will find more than you ever wanted to know about CB!

 

A little ancient history on counterbalancing. Back in the 1960s, some players would put a lead fishing weight in the butt of their driver. Some did it for feel. Others who had a handsy swing, or were former football players, would do it to lessen chances hands would overpower the downswing.

 

In Golf My Way, Jack Nicklaus relates how he put a one-ounce lead plug in the butt of his driver to improve his tempo.

 

In present time, we have more systematic counterbalancing. We have counterbalancing for putters...

• SuperStroke grips offer this with different weight plugs you can swap out in your putter grip.
  
• The WinnPro X1.60 superjumbo grip weighs 98 grams (standard grip for woods or irons weighs around 50 grams).
  

For irons and woods, TourLock offers counter plugs to insert into the butt end of clubs, or less costly butt weight insert tubes for handling weights or powder.

 

Or, you can buy heavies for woods and irons such as Secret Grip, which weighs in at 92 grams.

 

On the other end of offerings, Winn DriTac Lite grips only weigh about 25 grams; TaylorMade has similar 25-gram Burner Superfast replacement grips.

 

Sergio Garcia hit a counterbalanced driver a few seasons back, had about C7 net swingweight if I recall correctly. This sparked a lot of inconclusive debates on golf blogs.

 

... The naming conventions makes it seems like it is but adding butt weight or grip weight really is not the same as using a counterbalanced shaft.

 

But yes, when it comes to adding weight under the grip, it's very unpredictable how people will respond. ...

 

Not just how players will respond, but discussing counterbalancing gets varied responses from clubfitters and clubsmiths. Some get almost theological about it, either for or against.

[Stuart_G]

All good. But the main point I was making is that the "counterbalanced" label applied to shafts isn't really accurate so they should not be lumped in together with other forms of counterbalancing the club.

 

 

... The naming conventions makes it seems like it is but adding butt weight or grip weight really is not the same as using a counterbalanced shaft.

 

But yes, when it comes to adding weight under the grip, it's very unpredictable how people will respond. ...

 

Not just how players will respond, but discussing counterbalancing gets varied responses from clubfitters and clubsmiths. Some get almost theological about it, either for or against.

 

I was referring to actual ball flight results - not opinions :-)

[SlamMan]

 

 

The naming conventions makes it seems like it is but adding butt weight or grip weight really is not the same as using a counterbalanced shaft.

 

Serious question. How is it different?

 

 

[Bar_Stroll]

I will concur not everyone responds the same to counterbalanced shafts. I am one of them.

 

I built a counterbalanced shaft after being fit for one. I was super tired at the end of a full bag fitting so I do not remember the shaft feeling any different at all. I didn't even know it was counter balanced until I built it (it's only slightly counter balanced). I cannot get good dispersion or contact with anything more than C9 with it. The whole club just seems completely odd to swing. I tried putting weight in the head getting back to D3 or D4 and it did not work at all.

 

I went back to my "standard" balance shaft cut to 45" and added a 10 gram head weight plus lead tape and can keep the timing just fine, even over weighted I can tell it's too heavy but it feels the same. If I put even 2 grams on the counterbalanced set-up with a stock 4 gram head weight I lose it instantly.

[Stuart_G]

The naming conventions makes it seems like it is but adding butt weight or grip weight really is not the same as using a counterbalanced shaft.

 

Serious question. How is it different?

 

Adding weight to the grip end is adding weight to the club - but it has virtually no effect on the MOI of the club. Counterbalancing a shaft is a manipulation of the weight distribution outside the hands and so does have an actual impact on the MOI of the club. The head weight dominates the MOI but the shaft still contributes. We see the changes on the SW scale because it is a measure of balance and not MOI BUT the concept of swing weight matching was an attempt at a low tech way to match MOI. But it only works in that capacity under certain limited conditions and assumptions - same grip weight, same shaft, small length changes. Assumption that were safe to make at the time the SW scale was designed - but is no longer safe to make anymore.

[g_millar100]

I have a lot of weight i the butt end of my driver shaft (all shafts for that matter). I have 50g in my driver shaft as i think* (operable word) that it allows me to have a steadier, more controlled take away.

I think everyone reacts to the different feel in differing ways. Just gotta try it out and see if it is fr you or not!

[jrr]

Stuart you are right, my words were wrong. It was indicated that the balance points were not the same on the 5W and 3W and he was adding weight under the grips to accomplish this through "counterbalancing". I think he was trying to explain it to me simply.

[SlamMan]

 

Adding weight to the grip end is adding weight to the club - but it has virtually no effect on the MOI of the club. Counterbalancing a shaft is a manipulation of the weight distribution outside the hands and so does have an actual impact on the MOI of the club. The head weight dominates the MOI but the shaft still contributes. We see the changes on the SW scale because it is a measure of balance and not MOI BUT the concept of swing weight matching was an attempt at a low tech way to match MOI. But it only works in that capacity under certain limited conditions and assumptions - same grip weight, same shaft, small length changes. Assumption that were safe to make at the time the SW scale was designed - but is no longer safe to make anymore.

 

Thanks for the input. I don't mean to be a pain in the a** because I'm really just trying to educate myself here but I guess I'm unconvinced at this point that the same effect and MOI couldn't be achieved by adding weight to the shaft above the balance point. If I'm wrong I guess I just need a more technical explanation. If I had access to an MOI machine I'd definitely be trying it out.

[Jagpilotohio]

I have a lot of weight i the butt end of my driver shaft (all shafts for that matter). I have 50g in my driver shaft as i think* (operable word) that it allows me to have a steadier, more controlled take away.

I think everyone reacts to the different feel in differing ways. Just gotta try it out and see if it is fr you or not!

 

50 grams!?! Good lord! Nearly two ounces. That makes me tired just reading about it.

[Fubuman]

Good topic!!

If not too much trouble, could anyone that knows tell me which of my shafts are Counter Balanced. I’ve heard here & there that some are but can’t confirm this.

1. Fubuki Tour 63x

2. Fubuki A 60x & 70x

3. Fubuki K 70x

4. Voodoo xvs7

5. Fujikura Pro 63x & 73x

6. Kiyoshi Gold 75x

7. Matrix White Tie 7x3 x

8. Mitsubishi D+ 70x

9. Fujikura VC7,2 ts

Thanks in advance.

[jll62]

I have a lot of weight i the butt end of my driver shaft (all shafts for that matter). I have 50g in my driver shaft as i think* (operable word) that it allows me to have a steadier, more controlled take away.

I think everyone reacts to the different feel in differing ways. Just gotta try it out and see if it is fr you or not!

 

50 grams!?! Good lord! Nearly two ounces. That makes me tired just reading about it.

 

A buddy of mine was messing around with lag bolts in the butt end and was at 100g for a while, if I recall correctly. I think he's settled on 80g Tour Lock now. The balance point of his clubs are in the middle of the shaft. Craziest things you've ever seen, but they work incredibly well for him.

[Valtiel]

I have a lot of weight i the butt end of my driver shaft (all shafts for that matter). I have 50g in my driver shaft as i think* (operable word) that it allows me to have a steadier, more controlled take away.

I think everyone reacts to the different feel in differing ways. Just gotta try it out and see if it is fr you or not!

 

50 grams!?! Good lord! Nearly two ounces. That makes me tired just reading about it.

 

A buddy of mine was messing around with lag bolts in the butt end and was at 100g for a while, if I recall correctly. I think he's settled on 80g Tour Lock now. The balance point of his clubs are in the middle of the shaft. Craziest things you've ever seen, but they work incredibly well for him.

 

I swung a 150g counter weight in an old TM Burner 3 wood at a Tour Lock tent setup at the California Country Club a few months ago. Whew, THAT was weird. I was striping the ball after starting to get used to it but there is no way you could only have that setup in one club, its all or nothing. Forget feeling like you can do ANYTHING with your hands as that kind of setup basically forces you into a big muscle, trunk-based swing. I feel like what DeChambeau looks like swinging that thing and all it wants to go is go straight. Quite a trip.

[Stuart_G]

Adding weight to the grip end is adding weight to the club - but it has virtually no effect on the MOI of the club. Counterbalancing a shaft is a manipulation of the weight distribution outside the hands and so does have an actual impact on the MOI of the club. The head weight dominates the MOI but the shaft still contributes. We see the changes on the SW scale because it is a measure of balance and not MOI BUT the concept of swing weight matching was an attempt at a low tech way to match MOI. But it only works in that capacity under certain limited conditions and assumptions - same grip weight, same shaft, small length changes. Assumption that were safe to make at the time the SW scale was designed - but is no longer safe to make anymore.

 

Thanks for the input. I don't mean to be a pain in the a** because I'm really just trying to educate myself here but I guess I'm unconvinced at this point that the same effect and MOI couldn't be achieved by adding weight to the shaft above the balance point. If I'm wrong I guess I just need a more technical explanation. If I had access to an MOI machine I'd definitely be trying it out.

 

No worries. But sorry, not sure exactly what you are asking. What do you mean by "adding weight to the shaft above the balance point"? And how is that relate to what I've said?

 

But maybe this will help. The MOI of the club is measured about an axis at the grip of the clubs (really the very butt). MOI contributions are a function of the distance of the weight from this axis (actually distance squared). So if you add weight at the grip or end of the butt, it will have little to no effect on the MOI. If weight is added or changed anywhere else down the length of the club, then it will effect the MOI. The further from the grip the weight is changed, the more the effect on the MOI of the club.

 

When we talk about conventional counterbalancing (heavy grips, tour lock pros, weight plugs added to the butt, etc..), we are adding weight right at the butt - no effect on MOI.

 

When shaft designers change the balance point to move closer toward the butt (and call it 'counterbalanced') they are not just adding weight to the butt. They are changing the weight distribution along the whole shaft length - so that will effect the MOI of the club.

[jll62]

I have a lot of weight i the butt end of my driver shaft (all shafts for that matter). I have 50g in my driver shaft as i think* (operable word) that it allows me to have a steadier, more controlled take away.

I think everyone reacts to the different feel in differing ways. Just gotta try it out and see if it is fr you or not!

 

50 grams!?! Good lord! Nearly two ounces. That makes me tired just reading about it.

 

A buddy of mine was messing around with lag bolts in the butt end and was at 100g for a while, if I recall correctly. I think he's settled on 80g Tour Lock now. The balance point of his clubs are in the middle of the shaft. Craziest things you've ever seen, but they work incredibly well for him.

 

I swung a 150g counter weight in an old TM Burner 3 wood at a Tour Lock tent setup at the California Country Club a few months ago. Whew, THAT was weird. I was striping the ball after starting to get used to it but there is no way you could only have that setup in one club, its all or nothing. Forget feeling like you can do ANYTHING with your hands as that kind of setup basically forces you into a big muscle, trunk-based swing. I feel like what DeChambeau looks like swinging that thing and all it wants to go is go straight. Quite a trip.

 

It's that way in all of his clubs, but one of the reasons he did it is exactly opposite of what you mention. He's intentionally arms and hands in his swing and this allows him some incredible speed. Not a big muscle swing with these clubs for him. Throw in irons that are +5 to +7 degrees upright with a swing that has a very high VSP and you get a lot of dead straight rockets. It's quite something to witness in person.

[tyche]

Adding weight to the grip end is adding weight to the club - but it has virtually no effect on the MOI of the club. Counterbalancing a shaft is a manipulation of the weight distribution outside the hands and so does have an actual impact on the MOI of the club. The head weight dominates the MOI but the shaft still contributes. We see the changes on the SW scale because it is a measure of balance and not MOI BUT the concept of swing weight matching was an attempt at a low tech way to match MOI. But it only works in that capacity under certain limited conditions and assumptions - same grip weight, same shaft, small length changes. Assumption that were safe to make at the time the SW scale was designed - but is no longer safe to make anymore.

 

Thanks for the input. I don't mean to be a pain in the a** because I'm really just trying to educate myself here but I guess I'm unconvinced at this point that the same effect and MOI couldn't be achieved by adding weight to the shaft above the balance point. If I'm wrong I guess I just need a more technical explanation. If I had access to an MOI machine I'd definitely be trying it out.

 

No worries. But sorry, not sure exactly what you are asking. What do you mean by "adding weight to the shaft above the balance point"? And how is that relate to what I've said?

 

But maybe this will help. The MOI of the club is measured about an axis at the grip of the clubs (really the very butt). MOI contributions are a function of the distance of the weight from this axis (actually distance squared). So if you add weight at the grip or end of the butt, it will have little to no effect on the MOI. If weight is added or changed anywhere else down the length of the club, then it will effect the MOI. The further from the grip the weight is changed, the more the effect on the MOI of the club.

 

When we talk about conventional counterbalancing (heavy grips, tour lock pros, weight plugs added to the butt, etc..), we are adding weight right at the butt - no effect on MOI.

 

When shaft designers change the balance point to move closer toward the butt (and call it 'counterbalanced') they are not just adding weight to the butt. They are changing the weight distribution along the whole shaft length - so that will effect the MOI of the club.

 

Great post stuart, what if you butt extended the club? Would that effect moi, allowing to add more weight to the head?

[kiwii]

As always Stuart G hit the nail on the head.

 

Slamman:

I think I can help answer your original questions. With your 2 premises in your original post the answer is Yes and Yes. Both outcomes are typical goals of tinkerers that can be achieved by counterbalancing the club with aftermarket or add on techniques.

 

1.adding total static club weight without changing or changing minimally the swing weight requires adding weight at both ends of stated club.

 

2. If the golfer wants to lessen swing weight and keep all else constant (playing length, shaft weight, grip weight) then counter weight is usually the easiest way. The other option theoretically would be to reduce club HEAD weight but that is harder to do in most cases. Not all drivers have interchangeable weights. And even if they do they are sometimes hard or expensive to acquire. Some examples in wedges are porting where holes are drilled out which reduces head weight.

 

What is confusing about your orignal post is you don’t distinguish between aftermarket counter balancing done by the golfer or shafts that are engineered to be counterbalanced.

[Stuart_G]

 

But maybe this will help. The MOI of the club is measured about an axis at the grip of the clubs (really the very butt). MOI contributions are a function of the distance of the weight from this axis (actually distance squared). So if you add weight at the grip or end of the butt, it will have little to no effect on the MOI. If weight is added or changed anywhere else down the length of the club, then it will effect the MOI. The further from the grip the weight is changed, the more the effect on the MOI of the club.

 

When we talk about conventional counterbalancing (heavy grips, tour lock pros, weight plugs added to the butt, etc..), we are adding weight right at the butt - no effect on MOI.

 

When shaft designers change the balance point to move closer toward the butt (and call it 'counterbalanced') they are not just adding weight to the butt. They are changing the weight distribution along the whole shaft length - so that will effect the MOI of the club.

 

Great post stuart, what if you butt extended the club? Would that effect moi, allowing to add more weight to the head?

 

Yes it would effect the MOI. By extending the club, you are increasing the length and moving the axis about which the MOI is measured. The axis for MOI measurement is always the very end of the butt. Now all the mass that was on the club is now moved further away from the axis and the MOI of the club would be increased (w/o adding anything else except the extension).

 

If you then added more weight to the head, the MOI would increase even more. So extending the length at the butt would not really allow one to add more weight to the head. It would be the opposite, it would generally require one to remove weight from the head to maintain a similar MOI.