Topic redux: When to move to GI irons

[Tim Schoch]

Yeah, this old topic. I've been playing various forged irons for a long while, lately MP-53s. I love em. But I hit a Ping G25 7-iron the other day that was not only longer than the 53 and straight and high, but it was effortless. The Pings are thick and bulky but I have seen far worse. I've got some minor physical probs, I am 69 to begin with, and the 53s can be work sometimes. And I want to play my best and kick a** at the next father-son.

 

Question: do you think shovels help the decline in my game? I have hit the Pings some more and I can get used to them, but I want to really benefit and my mind is muddled with all the talk of forgiveness and butter, so much so that on the range it affects how I swing.

 

What is your experience?

[wkuo3]

Check the loft on the Ping vs. Mizuno. Might not be the same.

[BIG STU]

It may also be a combination of the shaft and head design. A couple of months back I switched to an older set of KZG cavity backs with Swing Science graphite shafts. Now these are not GI irons they are forged and have butter knife soles. I have actually picked up Swing Speed and distance. These also are a one piece forged club in other words not hot faces. I originally built those for a friend of mine and he did not like them so I ended up with them. They are not hot lofts either they are the same loft as I set up any of my Mac or Hogan blades based off a 47* PW 43* 9 iron and so on in 3* increments. The shafts were trimmed to factory specs. There were a couple of clubs I did have to add maybe 3 grams of lead tape to get them hitting like I want. Main thing is the lighter graphite shafts at around 90 grams. The reason I had to switch was back issues. But inadvertently I have picked up swing speed and distance. Once I got used to the clubs my accuracy has not changed any. Like I said those clubs were never built for me and I got lucky and they worked for me. Main thing is my lower back does not hurt anymore after playing. Seriously I was just before giving up playing and just concentrate on building and collecting clubs. IMHO lighter clubs and maybe a lower COG may help you. Maybe see a reputable fitter or experiment on your own> My .02 FWIW----- Bottom line play what works for you to kick arse with!

[Wriggles]

I think most of the "advantages" of the GI irons (and modern irons) is the loft. If you make a 7 iron the loft of a 5, distances will increase. The PW of today is more like an 8 iron. Years ago, a SW was the most lofted. Now, everyone needs four wedges in their bag. There's a reason most sets don't include 2,3, and sometimes 4 irons. The 5 is more like a 3.

 

The manufacturers know people want to hit longer, with higher number clubs. Feels good, I guess. I'll always remember a Harvey Penick story. He had a high school player who had problems with his driver, but could hit a 2W as far as his team mates drivers. The boy complained to Harvey. Harvey took his 2W, applied a piece of masking tape on the sole, and wrote a big "1" over the 2. Told the student, "Now, you're hitting a driver."

 

Same concept as the GI's.

 

Whatever you're comfortable with, is the key.

[Tim Schoch]

It may also be a combination of the shaft and head design. A couple of months back I switched to an older set of KZG cavity backs with Swing Science graphite shafts. Now these are not GI irons they are forged and have butter knife soles. I have actually picked up Swing Speed and distance. These also are a one piece forged club in other words not hot faces. I originally built those for a friend of mine and he did not like them so I ended up with them. They are not hot lofts either they are the same loft as I set up any of my Mac or Hogan blades based off a 47* PW 43* 9 iron and so on in 3* increments. The shafts were trimmed to factory specs. There were a couple of clubs I did have to add maybe 3 grams of lead tape to get them hitting like I want. Main thing is the lighter graphite shafts at around 90 grams. The reason I had to switch was back issues. But inadvertently I have picked up swing speed and distance. Once I got used to the clubs my accuracy has not changed any. Like I said those clubs were never built for me and I got lucky and they worked for me. Main thing is my lower back does not hurt anymore after playing. Seriously I was just before giving up playing and just concentrate on building and collecting clubs. IMHO lighter clubs and maybe a lower COG may help you. Maybe see a reputable fitter or experiment on your own> My .02 FWIW----- Bottom line play what works for you to kick arse with!

 

Stu, thank you. My main prob is wrist tendonitis. I have developed a swing that doesn't hurt and hits it accurately. The lofts on sets are the same or within 1 degree. So now my brain is whirling with "practice with smaller forged irons improves swing?" ... "why not take advantage of more forgiveness?".... "missed strikes can go TOO far?".... etc. both have reg flex graphite and are light. I need to hit the range, maybe see a fitter, then commit. I love the look of the MP-53s, the Pings look like a plumber's wrench, but swing well and feel great. The 53s make me feel that they are lighter but there is a seed of doubt in my mind when I stand over them.

 

So glad you can play Stu. Whew. What would life be like playing only putt-putt with a long putter?

[Fellaheen51]

Yeah, this old topic. I've been playing various forged irons for a long while, lately MP-53s. I love em. But I hit a Ping G25 7-iron the other day that was not only longer than the 53 and straight and high, but it was effortless. The Pings are thick and bulky but I have seen far worse. I've got some minor physical probs, I am 69 to begin with, and the 53s can be work sometimes. And I want to play my best and kick a** at the next father-son.

 

Question: do you think shovels help the decline in my game? I have hit the Pings some more and I can get used to them, but I want to really benefit and my mind is muddled with all the talk of forgiveness and butter, so much so that on the range it affects how I swing.

 

What is your experience?

 

Since you asked. Can't play irons that look like "shovels". Wide soled, thickish top lines, so called game improvement. Does nothing for my play. But these days one does not have to settle for the style, unless that's your inclination. There are other options available for playing GI (even SGI) that offer the characteristics of improved playability, without looking the part. With no information about your game or preferences, reluctant to offer specific suggestions. If you select by trial and error, or prefer to by OEM from a LGS with a fitting and all that entails. Look for the lightest graphite shafts that still afford you with directional control. Not an quick and easy determination, will require testing.

 

I've switched for this season to SGI with LW graphite. Because they're easier to swing, offer more consistent ball striking. Modern lofted (45* PW) but that's the new reality if one is considering new implements. Wasn't chasing distance in the absolute. If I want to hit the ball further, simply drop down a club. The number on the sole is nothing more than an index to correlate to a given loft. That translates to a appx. distance on how far the ball will traverse, given my capabilities. When it comes to iron distance, all I ask is it to be consistent. BTW, a G25 7 iron loft is 2* stronger than a MP-53.

 

Likely will still play classic irons on occasion. But will be as a novelty, not the norm. Closing in on 68 years of age, no longer going to have false illusions that they are all that marvelous to play. If the swing is in mid-season form, will break out the Hogans for a swat. But focusing on playing irons that offer the most GI as can be realized from a head/shaft combination. I'm all about "easy" moving forward.

[Tim Schoch]

Yeah, this old topic. I've been playing various forged irons for a long while, lately MP-53s. I love em. But I hit a Ping G25 7-iron the other day that was not only longer than the 53 and straight and high, but it was effortless. The Pings are thick and bulky but I have seen far worse. I've got some minor physical probs, I am 69 to begin with, and the 53s can be work sometimes. And I want to play my best and kick a** at the next father-son.

 

Question: do you think shovels help the decline in my game? I have hit the Pings some more and I can get used to them, but I want to really benefit and my mind is muddled with all the talk of forgiveness and butter, so much so that on the range it affects how I swing.

 

What is your experience?

 

Since you asked. Can't play irons that look like "shovels". Wide soled, thickish top lines, so called game improvement. Does nothing for my play. But these days one does not have to settle for the style, unless that's your inclination. There are other options available for playing GI (even SGI) that offer the characteristics of improved playability, without looking the part. With no information about your game or preferences, reluctant to offer specific suggestions. If you select by trial and error, or prefer to by OEM from a LGS with a fitting and all that entails. Look for the lightest graphite shafts that still afford you with directional control. Not an quick and easy determination, will require testing.

 

I've switched for this season to SGI with LW graphite. Because they're easier to swing, offer more consistent ball striking. Modern lofted (45* PW) but that's the new reality if one is considering new implements. Wasn't chasing distance in the absolute. If I want to hit the ball further, simply drop down a club. The number on the sole is nothing more than an index to correlate to a given loft. That translates to a appx. distance on how far the ball will traverse, given my capabilities. When it comes to iron distance, all I ask is it to be consistent. BTW, a G25 7 iron loft is 2* stronger than a MP-53.

 

Likely will still play classic irons on occasion. But will be as a novelty, not the norm. Closing in on 68 years of age, no longer going to have false illusions that they are all that marvelous to play. If the swing is in mid-season form, will break out the Hogans for a swat. But focusing on playing irons that offer the most GI as can be realized from a head/shaft combination. I'm all about "easy" moving forward.

 

I agree with most of this. And, yeah, the 7, 8, 9 irons are 2* different. I can't say I just hate thick heads. I grew up playing Golden Bears and then the Eye 2 forever until I discovered the amazing beauty of Hogans. The last couple of years I have tried many many many sets, new and old. I'm down to these two right now, Beauty and the Beast, I call them. Do I kiss the Beauty or kick arse with the Beast?

 

I have also studied my swing. I don't slice. I hit it dead straight, unless I pull. I draw my driver. My big miss is an over-the-top tomahawk fat hit with irons. I know what I should do with the flaws in my swing, but doing it is a different story. Would it be wrong to trust the wide sole on the G25s to help compensate for a fat hit, or should I focus like a laser on ball-first contact with the 53s and hit the ball correctly, even if it is half the time? In the meantime, all winter, I practiced my chipping and putting.

 

I mean, this ain't life and death. I'm not really confused, I just need to test out each set and make a decision for my next round of golf. But it is fun to intellectually understand why I make certain choices and what my plan is to solve problems, then determine which set of clubs can get me there. In a way, I'm glad I can't afford any of the new irons because I might be doing this forever.

[disco111]

Go with the Pings. It's very easy to say just go with 6 instead of a 7 iron if you want more distance, but due to age and physical limitations, now that 6 to a 7 now becomes a 5 or a 4. It's a lot easier to hit a 7 then a 5 or 4 and if it also gives you relief on pain in hands or back, then you can still enjoy the game even longer. Plus lets not forget the added aspect of increased forgiveness.

[Tim Schoch]

Go with the Pings. It's very easy to say just go with 6 instead of a 7 iron if you want more distance, but due to age and physical limitations, now that 6 to a 7 now becomes a 5 or a 4. It's a lot easier to hit a 7 then a 5 or 4 and if it also gives you relief on pain in hands or back, then you can still enjoy the game even longer. Plus lets not forget the added aspect of increased forgiveness.

 

Great practical advice. I am already hitting a 6 instead of a 7, and it really lets off a lot of pressure, plus the ball gets there! I have not thought about the fact that longer clubs are, indeed, more difficult to hit. Just yesterday I was considering adding the 4-iron to the bag instead of my hybrid for more accuracy. Also, a shorter swing is certainly in my future and longer clubs will be pulled to get the ball to the target, so forgiveness becomes very important. Thanks for the logic, disco.

[BladesOShanter]

Go with the Pings. It's very easy to say just go with 6 instead of a 7 iron if you want more distance, but due to age and physical limitations, now that 6 to a 7 now becomes a 5 or a 4. It's a lot easier to hit a 7 then a 5 or 4 and if it also gives you relief on pain in hands or back, then you can still enjoy the game even longer. Plus lets not forget the added aspect of increased forgiveness.

Disco has a good point about the mental idea of hitting that 7 vs a 6, ESP on an uphill elevated approach. Im 13 years your junior and prefer playing various muscle back irons, but have to say when I tried a set of Callaways in the sping of last year there were many psychological benefits and negatives. I too dead yank it when I overswijg or try to get cute. The game improvement clubs tend to instill confidence because (and I didn't know this) they are delofted, and I guess the sole weight helps drive it higher=distance.

 

Mishits are common for me so knowing I could get sloppy with them and they don't sting as much was/is appealing. But I found myself OB a lot with the long irons on par 5 layups, or all over the place trying to hoist a 4-5I too far. I dropped back to these Titleists with graphite as a compromise, and feel I can't hit it far anymore, but I know where it's going. (I'd use steel but like you have issues).

 

So your upcoming outing there are two things: outspanking is one (distance), and score. And confidence. If you know when your apt to press on the GI and can throttle it down to avoid the big numbers (something I need to work on) the GI Pings can't hurt you to Try? Worst case a little depreciation for a season of experimentation.

 

I want to get myself down <5hdcp so am trying to improve myself and use clubs I know I can control the balll with. Maybe the head is GI but the shaft is steel? Less rope effect... I think ego needs to be checked so might have to change my username ha ha, so I can hide and play anything I want wo the same LOL.

[mocokid]

There are GI forged irons, Srixon is one (565), Mizuno also 900 919. Ping you can never tell where on the club face you have hit it. And get graphite, I'm going from TT 95 steel to Recoil 680s.

[Tim Schoch]

There are GI forged irons, Srixon is one (565), Mizuno also 900 919. Ping you can never tell where on the club face you have hit it. And get graphite, I'm going from TT 95 steel to Recoil 680s.

 

Feel, testers and manufacturers say, comes from shape not whether it is forged or cast. Most GI forged have multiple materials and/or badges and are pretty ugly IMO. The G25 is a bit different than most in its category, in that it has more feel and more responsiveness than even its predecessor, the G20 (or the iron that follows it, the G30). I get fine feel with the G25 with reg graphite. I played the Eye2s for years and I knew where each shot went without looking. No, they didn't clang up your arm on a toe hit, like blades do, but I am not after that experience. I can tell by the ball flight whether I hit a shot badly or not, without clanging my nerve endings.

[LeoLeo99]

There are GI forged irons, Srixon is one (565), Mizuno also 900 919. Ping you can never tell where on the club face you have hit it. And get graphite, I'm going from TT 95 steel to Recoil 680s.

 

Feel, testers and manufacturers say, comes from shape not whether it is forged or cast. Most GI forged have multiple materials and/or badges and are pretty ugly IMO. The G25 is a bit different than most in its category, in that it has more feel and more responsiveness than even its predecessor, the G20 (or the iron that follows it, the G30). I get fine feel with the G25 with reg graphite. I played the Eye2s for years and I knew where each shot went without looking. No, they didn't clang up your arm on a toe hit, like blades do, but I am not after that experience. I can tell by the ball flight whether I hit a shot badly or not, without clanging my nerve endings.

 

I don't know if it's technology or experience but when I played FG17 irons years ago, I could play in the dark and find my ball because I knew where it was going based on feel. With G400 irons in my bag now, I can't tell by feel. I also don't play anywhere near as much as I used to. But I still retain that feel from decades ago. I'll hit the G400 and know I didn't get all of it but the ball still winds up on the green. It's weird.

[farmer]

I'm 68, with some physical issues, so I have gone to hybrids through the 7. Not pretty, but really easy to hit. Golf is not a sport where style points are awarded, it's all about the numbers. When you get into the lower lofted clubs, you have to have some speed to get them up in the air, and we seniors lose speed. If the Ping's are easier to play, you like the feel, the size is not an issue (it won't be after a few rounds), then why not?

[Kirasdad]

Go with “the beast”. Get those G25s in your bag ASAP and enjoy yourself.

 

Ping makes as playable club as there is now ( and have for years) much better feel as well than the Eye 2s of old. These days you can have your cake and eat it too. I am going GI too these days and loving it. I always have my hickory clubs to remind me of just hard hard the game can be, my regular golf I want things to be as easy as they can be.

 

Have fun.

[NRJyzr]

Check the loft on the Ping vs. Mizuno. Might not be the same.

 

 

Exactly so. Loft determines the distance, not the number stamped on the bottom of the club. All that nonsense about "stronger lofts due to lower CGs" is complete BS.

 

That said, shaft weight and type are worth looking at. I'm only 55 yrs old, but even at that moderate age, shaft weight is starting to be something to look at. 10 years ago I'd have been incapable of playing 105g shafts, but a couple of years ago I found myself doing just that, with some success.

 

As for clubhead choices, only you can decide what works for you. If the G25 work for you, no reason not to go full steam ahead. They also have the advantage of incredible durability. ;)

[GSDriver]

Personally, I can't look at 'shovels' but those are usually SGI class.

 

There are plenty of Players and GI irons that take some of the work out of playing golf for you.

 

First time I played Pings I was smitten, quickly wore off though.

 

Find something that fits your eye, get fitted for shafts, then go play!

[wkuo3]

Okay, I have a good answer to the OP's question.

 

The time to move to a GI iron , is the time when nothing else matters besides the performance. I used to have nightmare of looking down at Callaway irons , the GI irons with offset hosel and thick topline, not to mention the giga a** wide sole.

Sometime after my 60th birthday, I hit my wife's Callaway and found out I actually could tolerate the looking down at the address position because the ball flight was beautiful and I guess I could get used to the looks of the GI irons.

[hnryclay]

Horses for courses, I play classic (pre 1980) blades 80% of the time, but if I am going on a golf trip or playing in a tournament I will play a more modern set, since I will have to play from the blues. Most of my casual rounds are played from the whites, and more often than not with persimmons.

[BIG STU]

Okay, I have a good answer to the OP's question.

 

The time to move to a GI iron , is the time when nothing else matters besides the performance. I used to have nightmare of looking down at Callaway irons , the GI irons with offset hosel and thick topline, not to mention the giga a** wide sole.

Sometime after my 60th birthday, I hit my wife's Callaway and found out I actually could tolerate the looking down at the address position because the ball flight was beautiful and I guess I could get used to the looks of the GI irons.

That was my friend's problem with the KZGs. They are a little long in the toe compared to a blade which like me he was used to hitting all his life. I had to get used to the look. I think the feel and results helped me get over the looks. I remember back a few years I was playing the ugliest 5 wood you ever saw an old Adams GT Tight Lies. I cristined that club "The Ugly Duckling" I can remember a friend of mine who in his 70s is still a great player ( also a lifetime PGAOA member) told me " It does not matter what a club looks like if you can hit it. Hit enough good shots with it and gain confidence and you will get over the looks" Still have that 5 wood the only reason I am not playing it right now is because I have it's newer cousin a Adams Tight Lies 16*

[BIG STU]

I'm 68, with some physical issues, so I have gone to hybrids through the 7. Not pretty, but really easy to hit. Golf is not a sport where style points are awarded, it's all about the numbers. When you get into the lower lofted clubs, you have to have some speed to get them up in the air, and we seniors lose speed. If the Ping's are easier to play, you like the feel, the size is not an issue (it won't be after a few rounds), then why not?

I think I have told this before but it bears repeating. There is a retiree at my club that plays mostly hybrids. He does play a driver and carries a Trusty Rusty 56* wedge and a putter. The other 7 or 8 clubs he carries are hybrids. He utilizes those hybrids better than anyone I have ever seen. He regularly shoots in the mid 70s to low 80s everytime he plays. I think his age is 75 or so and he does play the gold senior tees. His little group plays first thing every morning weather permitting. He told me a long time ago that the hybrids saved the game for him.

[Tim Schoch]

I'm 68, with some physical issues, so I have gone to hybrids through the 7. Not pretty, but really easy to hit. Golf is not a sport where style points are awarded, it's all about the numbers. When you get into the lower lofted clubs, you have to have some speed to get them up in the air, and we seniors lose speed. If the Ping's are easier to play, you like the feel, the size is not an issue (it won't be after a few rounds), then why not?

I think I have told this before but it bears repeating. There is a retiree at my club that plays mostly hybrids. He does play a driver and carries a Trusty Rusty 56* wedge and a putter. The other 7 or 8 clubs he carries are hybrids. He utilizes those hybrids better than anyone I have ever seen. He regularly shoots in the mid 70s to low 80s everytime he plays. I think his age is 75 or so and he does play the gold senior tees. His little group plays first thing every morning weather permitting. He told me a long time ago that the hybrids saved the game for him.

 

Great story. I still have speed and strength at 69, so I am perfectly capable of swinging a 4-iron and yanking it off the planet :). Hybrids are a god-send to older golfers who can no longer hit it as far as they used to. Doesn't matter that hybrids aren't as accurate because the targets are so close. Love it. I have lost plenty of money to guys like your retiree friend.

 

Thick clubs don't bother me. But I fall in love with shiny thin Mizzys and Hogans. It is hard to let them go! But performance is the determining factor. My son and I play in the Md father-son every year, and this year I am doubling down on making my game the best it can be. Soon as the temp in Va warms to dry out the driving range, I am having a MP 53 vs G25 showdown over as many days as it takes to determine a clear winner. Beauty vs the Beast.

 

 

[wkuo3]

I'm 68, with some physical issues, so I have gone to hybrids through the 7. Not pretty, but really easy to hit. Golf is not a sport where style points are awarded, it's all about the numbers. When you get into the lower lofted clubs, you have to have some speed to get them up in the air, and we seniors lose speed. If the Ping's are easier to play, you like the feel, the size is not an issue (it won't be after a few rounds), then why not?

I think I have told this before but it bears repeating. There is a retiree at my club that plays mostly hybrids. He does play a driver and carries a Trusty Rusty 56* wedge and a putter. The other 7 or 8 clubs he carries are hybrids. He utilizes those hybrids better than anyone I have ever seen. He regularly shoots in the mid 70s to low 80s everytime he plays. I think his age is 75 or so and he does play the gold senior tees. His little group plays first thing every morning weather permitting. He told me a long time ago that the hybrids saved the game for him.

Way before the hybrids came out , I remembered my father favored the hybrid type of GI irons with wide body. I think back then the Yonex had the irons with wide fiber/graphite body behind the steel cup face. My father's comment was " it looked so friendly ,I feel I could hit a good shot even before I start "...… Of course I sneezed at that idea because a real golfer play forged blades.

Boy, I miss those times.

[farmer]

Tim, I hate to tell you, but you are one of the "old guys who don't hit it as far as they used to". I'm as accurate as I ever was with irons, still play to a 4, it's just easier.

[kcowgolf]

No one cares what you hit only what you score, go with what helps you physically and allows you to score the best.

[Tim Schoch]

Tim, I hate to tell you, but you are one of the "old guys who don't hit it as far as they used to". I'm as accurate as I ever was with irons, still play to a 4, it's just easier.

 

Lol. Relative to you, maybe yeah. Distance isn't my prob or concern. I am driving it now longer than I ever have and my putting is really good too. It is my @&$!?%# irons. I have seen 3 coaches, and each tells me a different thing. It is getting better, but I still hit all over the face. I thought the G25s would help. For me, the problem with age is 3 things: eyesight (hate wearing glasses when I play), creaky bones, and endurance. But all of that does add up to "time to make it easier on myself." Thanks.

[Hawkeye77]

3 coaches in how long?

 

Irons aren’t the issue. Age isn’t the issue.

[Tim Schoch]

2 things going on here. 1) seeking equip to help my game improve. 2). Swing faults I am having trouble with that drills from 3 coaches in one year have yet to click in and that practice and equipment will help.

 

I guess this is why this topic can be so annoying. Sorry. Good thoughts here. I'll work it out.

[NRJyzr]

Tim, I hate to tell you, but you are one of the "old guys who don't hit it as far as they used to". I'm as accurate as I ever was with irons, still play to a 4, it's just easier.

 

Lol. Relative to you, maybe yeah. Distance isn't my prob or concern. I am driving it now longer than I ever have and my putting is really good too. It is my @&$!?%# irons. I have seen 3 coaches, and each tells me a different thing. It is getting better, but I still hit all over the face. I thought the G25s would help. For me, the problem with age is 3 things: eyesight (hate wearing glasses when I play), creaky bones, and endurance. But all of that does add up to "time to make it easier on myself." Thanks.

 

 

What you're describing sounds much like a friend of mine, at least with respect to the irons. He's quite a good putter and his short game and putting are quite good. His iron contact is all over the face. For that reason, he's been playing a Ping G iron as long as I've known him. G5's when I met him , now I think it's G20's. His "all over the face" contact even extends to his tee game, he's lacking length.

 

He plays to an 8 or 9, though. His key is short game and putting. We call him Egg Beater, because he's a scrambling machine. I can't imagine what his game would be like if he didn't have a G20 or similar iron available. Might have quit the game.

 

So I say give it a shot. Nothing to lose. It might just get 'er done

 

 

No one cares what you hit only what you score, go with what helps you physically and allows you to score the best.

 

Unfortunately, there is a contingent here on WRX that seems to care a great deal about what everyone hits, and chastises them if they don't play some form of CB.

 

In the Classic folders, no one cares, except to admire what you're hitting. :)

[disco111]

I am having a MP 53 vs G25 showdown

 

I had my own showdown of sorts last year. I found a full set of Hogan Directors (80 model) which I consider the cleanest and best looking irons Hogan ever put out. Played with them when I was younger and on my game. Long story short, by the third hole and after 3 shanks and 2 shots woefully short from 150 (7 iron normal distance) went back to the clubhouse as we had time before we could tee off on 4 and it was as close to the clubhouse than the rest of the holes to be played on that nine. Changed to a rental set of cheap Paragon irons, which were large soled and bigger heads. The difference from the 4th hole on was night and day. My confidence climbed, some distance returned but not as much as today's jacked up sets, but decent enough. At least I could get to the green from 150 with a 6 now instead of a 5 with the Hogans and that 5 was still short. Now I've gone to a set of TM's with the 7 at 31 degrees and the 7 at 150 is no problem any longer. Playing for over 60+ years, you become accustomed to specific distances that you can hit an iron and under normal conditions and you go to that club subconsciously. So at 75, I rather play what gives me the things I can relate to and that makes the game enjoyable again. Some folks like hybrids, but I'm not one of them. I know it's in my head, but when I look down, I see a wood and then proceed to hit it as such and with none stellar results. So it's irons for me and the TM 4 iron I have gives me the right stuff. Let us know the results of your showdown, should be an interesting review.......