M2 2016 More Forgiving Replacement?

[kiw1982]

> @sh9109 said:

> > @kiw1982 said:

> > M6 is very forgiving. But I would say, G400 max is still king of forgiveness.

>

> seems like so many people are using the mizuno st180 or 190...

 

I bought it just because it was so cheap. I like Mizuno.

I had a driver fitting and MY was the best result for me. But the difference with st180 was so tiny. My fitter just threw a new shaft for st180.

Tried everything except new 410lst but most of them just perform similarly.

[ME27]

I just went from 16 m2 to the TS3 and I am much better with it much more consistent.

[enickma]

The shaft is the engine. It swings the club. It's not the head that's causing the dispersion issues. It's your swing and the shaft and how it loads the club and delivers the club head at impact. Find your shaft, and your M2, or any head you play will come back to life.

[ChipNRun]

> @sh9109 said:

> I have on and off days with this driver, but looking for something that is noticeably more forgiving. ...

More forgiving in what sense. Could you tell us the nature of your _off-

day_ misses? Is it a pattern, or just all over?

 

 

[Benkross]

> @kiw1982 said:

> M6 is very forgiving. But I would say, G400 max is still king of forgiveness.

 

Agreed but the M6 sounds sooooooo much better and looks amazing looking down. Hit it for the first time Monday. Epic SZ might have competition.

[SilenceX]

> @ChipNRun said:

> > @sh9109 said:

> > I have on and off days with this driver, but looking for something that is noticeably more forgiving. ...

> More forgiving in what sense. Could you tell us the nature of your _off-

> day_ misses? Is it a pattern, or just all over?

>

>

 

Was going to be my question as well. My coach (a long ball competitor) pulled me away from any of the M series TM for a while because my miss is an over-fade nearing slice territory, not sure if it's their stock shafts or what but he pushed me toward some other options and it's been pretty different for sure. Still haven't settled on what to buy for my next gamer but my misses are less often and less extreme whenever I hit the newer Pings, Mizuno, even Callaway. We're working on fixing it so I don't have to decide which fits my miss best, but for now there is definitely something to be said with certain brands favoring different lines.

[AC168]

M5 for me

[Valtiel]

> @sh9109 said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @sh9109 said:

> > >

> > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > @sh9109 said:

> > > > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > > I noticed in your signature that you play your M2 at 43.5", I assume you've added weight to compensate for the shorter length. If so, where have you placed it and how much? Driver forgiveness is predicated purely on weight placement and you could potentially achieve significant forgiveness gains/losses based on that.

> > > > >

> > > > > I played around with adding weight at different places, but as of now, I have 12 grams added to the butt of the club. Do you have different suggestions for where I should add weight?

> > > >

> > > > Interesting, so you shortened it and then counter weighted it as well? That must be a very interesting feeling club. My suggestion would change that drastically however so take it with a grain of salt.

> > > >

> > > > If the driver started out at lets say, D2 @45" then taking off 1.5" would subtract 9 swing weight points. To get back to D2 in that case, you could add around 15g of weight to the head. Now this comes down to personal preference, but adding weight to the back of the club would increase MOI and forgiveness. Any time a company claims that their new driver is more forgiving than the previous model, that is what they have done, simply reallocate some weight rearward. Taylormade has been doing this with each successive M-series driver, and adding anywhere from 10-15g via aftermarket M2 Tungsten weights would be very similar. Adding that much weight would push the M2 into the realm of the Ping LST drivers roughly. Currently a stock M2 sits around the same forgiveness range as most TItleist drivers and the more weight you can add to the back of the head, the more forgiveness.

> > >

> > > I'm sorry, I didnt specify, when I meant butt of my club (back of the head), I meant the back end of my driver head, not the shaft.

> >

> > Ahhh gotcha, that makes a lot more sense, hah! 12g would add a bit of forgiveness for sure. If you want more forgiving honestly you'd have to jump to something like a G400 or G400 Max. The 2016 M2 is not unforgiving when compared to others, and with extra weight in the back like that it would be considered to be more forgiving than most. What specifically is your miss that you want extra help with?

>

> The problem i had with adding the weight to the back of the head was that my spin numbers were too high. I tried different shafts too, but nothing enough to warrant a change. my misses are usually right and on normal/good days, i hit a decent sized fade. however, when its not clicking, it turns into a fat slice. (higher swing speed so bigger misses). i toyed around with added lead tape to the right side of my driver so it shuts the club more at impact, but hard to get used to that feel.

 

The issue here is the components by which weight placement impacts launch and the only two factors that create spin; dynamic loft and strike location. When moving weight back you are increasing MOI which decreases the gear effects imparted by off center hits. If your spin became too high (how much is "too high" by the way?) then either loft or strike location changed. Rearward weight can slightly increase dynamic loft by increasing shaft deflection if you're swinging hard enough and this can be countered by either a stiffer tipped shaft that resists forward deflection more or simply lowering your loft. If your strike location changed then you need to figure out why and establish a pattern. It could be too much/too little weight, a poorly fit shaft for your swing, or just a fundamental swing flaw.

 

Either way you need to figure out WHY your spin increased by either figuring out your strike location patterns or your dynamic loft at impact, preferably both. This is important because a new driver does not fix this. You can not have maximum spin reduction and maximum forgiveness at the same time, one ALWAYS compromises the other and its through trial and error on our part and R&D on the manufacturers part to locate a happy balance with enough of whichever one we need most. MOI is the measure of forgiveness and low spin heads are such because of either low MOI (greater impact) or low CG (less impact), or both. As MOI increases, forgiveness increases and the capacity for spin reduction decreases, so buying a new driver that is more forgiving than your current M2 won't change anything unless either dynamic loft or strike location changes too. The ultimate balance in a driver than is obviously High MOI and Low CG but this is the hardest type of driver to build because it involves allocating weight away from that areas that NEED material to keep the head from failing. I plan on making a diagram to explain all this at some point because most people do not seem to understand the relationship between spin, dynamic loft, MOI, and CG location.

[JStang]

My F9 is really forgiving. I am amazed at how well this club performs on low strikes which is my normal miss. I also have a 16 M2 and I will take both to the range today and let you know my thoughts. It's been a while since I swung the M2.

 

[sh9109]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @sh9109 said:

> > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > @sh9109 said:

> > > >

> > > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > > @sh9109 said:

> > > > > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > > > I noticed in your signature that you play your M2 at 43.5", I assume you've added weight to compensate for the shorter length. If so, where have you placed it and how much? Driver forgiveness is predicated purely on weight placement and you could potentially achieve significant forgiveness gains/losses based on that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I played around with adding weight at different places, but as of now, I have 12 grams added to the butt of the club. Do you have different suggestions for where I should add weight?

> > > > >

> > > > > Interesting, so you shortened it and then counter weighted it as well? That must be a very interesting feeling club. My suggestion would change that drastically however so take it with a grain of salt.

> > > > >

> > > > > If the driver started out at lets say, D2 @45" then taking off 1.5" would subtract 9 swing weight points. To get back to D2 in that case, you could add around 15g of weight to the head. Now this comes down to personal preference, but adding weight to the back of the club would increase MOI and forgiveness. Any time a company claims that their new driver is more forgiving than the previous model, that is what they have done, simply reallocate some weight rearward. Taylormade has been doing this with each successive M-series driver, and adding anywhere from 10-15g via aftermarket M2 Tungsten weights would be very similar. Adding that much weight would push the M2 into the realm of the Ping LST drivers roughly. Currently a stock M2 sits around the same forgiveness range as most TItleist drivers and the more weight you can add to the back of the head, the more forgiveness.

> > > >

> > > > I'm sorry, I didnt specify, when I meant butt of my club (back of the head), I meant the back end of my driver head, not the shaft.

> > >

> > > Ahhh gotcha, that makes a lot more sense, hah! 12g would add a bit of forgiveness for sure. If you want more forgiving honestly you'd have to jump to something like a G400 or G400 Max. The 2016 M2 is not unforgiving when compared to others, and with extra weight in the back like that it would be considered to be more forgiving than most. What specifically is your miss that you want extra help with?

> >

> > The problem i had with adding the weight to the back of the head was that my spin numbers were too high. I tried different shafts too, but nothing enough to warrant a change. my misses are usually right and on normal/good days, i hit a decent sized fade. however, when its not clicking, it turns into a fat slice. (higher swing speed so bigger misses). i toyed around with added lead tape to the right side of my driver so it shuts the club more at impact, but hard to get used to that feel.

>

> The issue here is the components by which weight placement impacts launch and the only two factors that create spin; dynamic loft and strike location. When moving weight back you are increasing MOI which decreases the gear effects imparted by off center hits. If your spin became too high (how much is "too high" by the way?) then either loft or strike location changed. Rearward weight can slightly increase dynamic loft by increasing shaft deflection if you're swinging hard enough and this can be countered by either a stiffer tipped shaft that resists forward deflection more or simply lowering your loft. If your strike location changed then you need to figure out why and establish a pattern. It could be too much/too little weight, a poorly fit shaft for your swing, or just a fundamental swing flaw.

>

> Either way you need to figure out WHY your spin increased by either figuring out your strike location patterns or your dynamic loft at impact, preferably both. This is important because a new driver does not fix this. You can not have maximum spin reduction and maximum forgiveness at the same time, one ALWAYS compromises the other and its through trial and error on our part and R&D on the manufacturers part to locate a happy balance with enough of whichever one we need most. MOI is the measure of forgiveness and low spin heads are such because of either low MOI (greater impact) or low CG (less impact), or both. As MOI increases, forgiveness increases and the capacity for spin reduction decreases, so buying a new driver that is more forgiving than your current M2 won't change anything unless either dynamic loft or strike location changes too. The ultimate balance in a driver than is obviously High MOI and Low CG but this is the hardest type of driver to build because it involves allocating weight away from that areas that NEED material to keep the head from failing. I plan on making a diagram to explain all this at some point because most people do not seem to understand the relationship between spin, dynamic loft, MOI, and CG location.

 

I understand what you're saying and I understand and its obviously easier said than done. I've tinkered around with a lot of shaft/loft/head weighting combinations and the one I have now is the one that got me the best numbers for now (got fitted). I know its partly my swing too, cause I have a swing that's steeper and works great for my irons up to my 3W. But your point above is exactly my problem if I put the weight on the back of my head to increase MOI, then my spin is not going to decrease and with my swing and speed, I want to keep the spin down or have the weight in the front. I'm not the one to change equipment often, but some of these newer clubs do offer more forgiveness with lower spin (G400 LST, if I can get used to the Ping noise, but that's just personal preference). So seeing if there are people have had the same problem and seeing if another driver has helped them. I don't mind hitting my 3 wood off the tee every hole, but it would be nice having a driver you can hit confidently.

[Cpr3584]

Still gaming my 2016 M2. I have not tried the M5 or M6, but aside from those, you probably won't find a longer driver. Im not sure what you mean by 'more forgiving'. There are several Youtube videos testing the 16 M2 against the M5, and the difference in both distance and forgiveness were very minor

[manima1]

> @Cpr3584 said:

> Still gaming my 2016 M2. I have not tried the M5 or M6, but aside from those, you probably won't find a longer driver. Im not sure what you mean by 'more forgiving'. There are several Youtube videos testing the 16 M2 against the M5, and the difference in both distance and forgiveness were very minor

 

You need to hit the M5 then. The feel and forgiveness are considerably improved in my opinion and I'm a raving fan of the 2016M2 as the GOAT.

[Valtiel]

> @sh9109 said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @sh9109 said:

> > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > @sh9109 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > > > @sh9109 said:

> > > > > > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > > > > I noticed in your signature that you play your M2 at 43.5", I assume you've added weight to compensate for the shorter length. If so, where have you placed it and how much? Driver forgiveness is predicated purely on weight placement and you could potentially achieve significant forgiveness gains/losses based on that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I played around with adding weight at different places, but as of now, I have 12 grams added to the butt of the club. Do you have different suggestions for where I should add weight?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Interesting, so you shortened it and then counter weighted it as well? That must be a very interesting feeling club. My suggestion would change that drastically however so take it with a grain of salt.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the driver started out at lets say, D2 @45" then taking off 1.5" would subtract 9 swing weight points. To get back to D2 in that case, you could add around 15g of weight to the head. Now this comes down to personal preference, but adding weight to the back of the club would increase MOI and forgiveness. Any time a company claims that their new driver is more forgiving than the previous model, that is what they have done, simply reallocate some weight rearward. Taylormade has been doing this with each successive M-series driver, and adding anywhere from 10-15g via aftermarket M2 Tungsten weights would be very similar. Adding that much weight would push the M2 into the realm of the Ping LST drivers roughly. Currently a stock M2 sits around the same forgiveness range as most TItleist drivers and the more weight you can add to the back of the head, the more forgiveness.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm sorry, I didnt specify, when I meant butt of my club (back of the head), I meant the back end of my driver head, not the shaft.

> > > >

> > > > Ahhh gotcha, that makes a lot more sense, hah! 12g would add a bit of forgiveness for sure. If you want more forgiving honestly you'd have to jump to something like a G400 or G400 Max. The 2016 M2 is not unforgiving when compared to others, and with extra weight in the back like that it would be considered to be more forgiving than most. What specifically is your miss that you want extra help with?

> > >

> > > The problem i had with adding the weight to the back of the head was that my spin numbers were too high. I tried different shafts too, but nothing enough to warrant a change. my misses are usually right and on normal/good days, i hit a decent sized fade. however, when its not clicking, it turns into a fat slice. (higher swing speed so bigger misses). i toyed around with added lead tape to the right side of my driver so it shuts the club more at impact, but hard to get used to that feel.

> >

> > The issue here is the components by which weight placement impacts launch and the only two factors that create spin; dynamic loft and strike location. When moving weight back you are increasing MOI which decreases the gear effects imparted by off center hits. If your spin became too high (how much is "too high" by the way?) then either loft or strike location changed. Rearward weight can slightly increase dynamic loft by increasing shaft deflection if you're swinging hard enough and this can be countered by either a stiffer tipped shaft that resists forward deflection more or simply lowering your loft. If your strike location changed then you need to figure out why and establish a pattern. It could be too much/too little weight, a poorly fit shaft for your swing, or just a fundamental swing flaw.

> >

> > Either way you need to figure out WHY your spin increased by either figuring out your strike location patterns or your dynamic loft at impact, preferably both. This is important because a new driver does not fix this. You can not have maximum spin reduction and maximum forgiveness at the same time, one ALWAYS compromises the other and its through trial and error on our part and R&D on the manufacturers part to locate a happy balance with enough of whichever one we need most. MOI is the measure of forgiveness and low spin heads are such because of either low MOI (greater impact) or low CG (less impact), or both. As MOI increases, forgiveness increases and the capacity for spin reduction decreases, so buying a new driver that is more forgiving than your current M2 won't change anything unless either dynamic loft or strike location changes too. The ultimate balance in a driver than is obviously High MOI and Low CG but this is the hardest type of driver to build because it involves allocating weight away from that areas that NEED material to keep the head from failing. I plan on making a diagram to explain all this at some point because most people do not seem to understand the relationship between spin, dynamic loft, MOI, and CG location.

>

> I understand what you're saying and I understand and its obviously easier said than done. I've tinkered around with a lot of shaft/loft/head weighting combinations and the one I have now is the one that got me the best numbers for now (got fitted). I know its partly my swing too, cause I have a swing that's steeper and works great for my irons up to my 3W. But your point above is exactly my problem if I put the weight on the back of my head to increase MOI, then my spin is not going to decrease and with my swing and speed, I want to keep the spin down or have the weight in the front. I'm not the one to change equipment often, but some of these newer clubs do offer more forgiveness with lower spin (G400 LST, if I can get used to the Ping noise, but that's just personal preference). So seeing if there are people have had the same problem and seeing if another driver has helped them. I don't mind hitting my 3 wood off the tee every hole, but it would be nice having a driver you can hit confidently.

 

If all things are equal, the G400 LST is not going to offer more forgiveness AND lower spin based on the numbers. It only has moderately higher MOI which would be roughly equal to your M2 with the rear weight you've added and a noticeably higher CG, which will increase spin. The G400 LST would likely actually be a step back for you in this case. The only thing that will offer lower spin than the 2016 M2 is a driver with either lower MOI (that is struck properly) or one with lower CG. The two likely candidates there are the Rogue Subzero and the Cobra LTD. The G400 MAX also has a similar CG to the 2016 M2 but has a significantly higher MOI so that may be an option as well.

 

Addressing your point about swing, a negative AoA with your driver is not a bad thing and does not increase spin like so many people seem to believe. It just needs to be taken into account when choosing your loft so don't consider that a hindrance.

[JStang]

I played 9 with the M2 in the bag and the high toe miss produced a couple of really bad quackers. When struck in the middle it was amazing. I definitely feel the F9 is more forgiving after those 9 holes.

[Meerkat213]

I put in a “high end” shaft that has gone from 350 dollars to less than a 100. It’s been a solid improvement for an already solid 2016 M2. I had the stock Fuji shaft in the M2 for three years and wanted something a touch firmer. The new shaft is legit and will be keeping the M2 as the starting QB.

[Nixhex524]

> @JStang said:

> I played 9 with the M2 in the bag and the high toe miss produced a couple of really bad quackers. When struck in the middle it was amazing. I definitely feel the F9 is more forgiving after those 9 holes.

 

Either one noticeably longer? I do like my 190G but on off days it can be punishing... F9 has my interest, also have a 2017 M2 on the way.

[JStang]

> @Nixhex524 said:

> > @JStang said:

> > I played 9 with the M2 in the bag and the high toe miss produced a couple of really bad quackers. When struck in the middle it was amazing. I definitely feel the F9 is more forgiving after those 9 holes.

>

> Either one noticeably longer? I do like my 190G but on off days it can be punishing... F9 has my interest, also have a 2017 M2 on the way.

 

I would probably say the M2 is longer. I think the F9 might spin a few hundred RPM's more just from the eye test. I hit a really nice drive this weekend in a scramble with the F9 that actually backed up a yard. That particular fairway was a little soft but it wasn't wet enough that it should have backed up. It was strange.