Would you have intervened?

antip · June 30, 2019

> @Hateto3Putt said:

> I love these molehill to mountain threads!

>

> Ball falls off a tee unnoticed, friend or foe, I speak up.

>

> 3 or 4 more pages please..... B)

Okay, let's see what we can do.

Sometimes there are no rules issues there, sometimes there are but nuanced. 30-40 pages like the divots thread though? Serious spinning of the wheels there.

lchang · June 30, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @lchang said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > If I was assigned to the match I would speak up. If I was a roving ref, or one assigned to a hole, I would stay silent. If I was a spectator, it would depend on how well I knew the players and what I knew about them.

> > > >

> > > Given the statement _"Paired with strangers having a match"_ implies he was not a referee, my answer was based on being a spectator.

> > >

> > Yes I was completely a spectator to a $5 Nassau. I could totally have stayed silent. Players could have made mistakes in reporting their scores, “gotten away with it”, etc. I could have just nodded to myself knowingly and moved on. But I think I feel somehow better that the result was more “deserved” after my little correction.

> >

>

> Didn't you already post this exact situation in a thread of its own ? That, BTW, didn't come to a completely satisfactory conclusion.

>

> [https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776584/match-play-ruling-stroke-allocation-confusion#latest](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776584/match-play-ruling-stroke-allocation-confusion#latest "https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776584/match-play-ruling-stroke-allocation-confusion#latest")

Yes, I posted that a couple weeks from an incident that happened a couple weeks ago. It was a different round with a different group with different facts and a different situation. So, no, IMO, not the "exact situation" as that thread.

(Interesting that I guess I've actually had 4 instances worthy of this forum in the last couple weeks! The stroke allocation one involved my brother-in-law--I wasn't there.

Plus [this one](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776592/simultaneous-matches-and-a-conceded-putt "this one") which was all my stupidity. And two in this thread. Weird--and some interesting issues, IMO.)

antip · June 30, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

>

> LOL You wouldn't even point me to the Rule for a player incorrectly moving his ball out of a divot. Too many words I guess.

>

I didn't think it was a serious question because this discussion has focussed on advice-related rules issues. But happy to oblige - it is a breach of Rule 9.1a (ball to be played as it lies), the penalty is identified under Rule 9.4b and the required action (replace) under Rule 9.4a.

antip · June 30, 2019

> @lchang said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @lchang said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > If I was assigned to the match I would speak up. If I was a roving ref, or one assigned to a hole, I would stay silent. If I was a spectator, it would depend on how well I knew the players and what I knew about them.

> > > > >

> > > > Given the statement _"Paired with strangers having a match"_ implies he was not a referee, my answer was based on being a spectator.

> > > >

> > > Yes I was completely a spectator to a $5 Nassau. I could totally have stayed silent. Players could have made mistakes in reporting their scores, “gotten away with it”, etc. I could have just nodded to myself knowingly and moved on. But I think I feel somehow better that the result was more “deserved” after my little correction.

> > >

> >

> > Didn't you already post this exact situation in a thread of its own ? That, BTW, didn't come to a completely satisfactory conclusion.

> >

> > [https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776584/match-play-ruling-stroke-allocation-confusion#latest](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776584/match-play-ruling-stroke-allocation-confusion#latest "https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776584/match-play-ruling-stroke-allocation-confusion#latest")

>

> Yes, I posted that a couple weeks from an incident that happened a couple weeks ago. It was a different round with a different group with different facts and a different situation. So, no, IMO, not the "exact situation" as that thread.

>

> (Interesting that I guess I've actually had 4 instances worthy of this forum in the last couple weeks! The stroke allocation one involved my brother-in-law--I wasn't there.

> Plus [this one](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776592/simultaneous-matches-and-a-conceded-putt "this one") which was all my stupidity. And two in this thread. Weird--and some interesting issues, IMO.)

Your on-course challenges have been fertile ground for a rules discussion - at a time when genuine rules discussion material has been thin on the ground. At this rate, we'll need to resort to discussing the artificial quiz creations on the RB's and Dr Blakey's websites to keep ourselves sharp.

nsxguy · June 30, 2019

> @antip said:

> So let's apply your thinking to the course.

> You are a referee assigned to a match play game. Player A's ball is in a divot hole and he lifts the ball and drops in a nice lie a foot away. Player B says there is no rule that allows you to do that (RK's and Mikey's signature collecting petition to RBs hasn't triumphed yet), it's a shot penalty and you must replace the ball. Player A responds that B has just made a verbal comment that is intended to influence a player in making a stroke so B gets the general penalty and loses the hole. Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......

>

> @antip said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> >

> > LOL You wouldn't even point me to the Rule for a player incorrectly moving his ball out of a divot. Too many words I guess.

> >

> I didn't think it was a serious question because this discussion has focussed on advice-related rules issues. But happy to oblige - it is a breach of Rule 9.1a (ball to be played as it lies), the penalty is identified under Rule 9.4b and the required action (replace) under Rule 9.4a.

>

So next time I should start with "Serious question" ?

You were the one who proposed a situation. Did you not want/expect an answer ?

I read Rule 9. The reason I asked about it was multi-fold. You specified it was a "match".

Firstly, I seem to recall that darn near every penalty situation in the previous edition of the Rules specified both a stroke play penalty and a match play penalty. Also seemed to me also that most every match play penalty was "loss of hole". I don't see that anywhere in Rule 9, hence part of the reason for my question. I also don't recall seeing anything about the removal of "loss of hole" penalties to "only stroke penalties even in matches". Was that a major change of the new Rules ?

Secondly, is it not a player's duty to call a penalty when he sees one ? If so Player B in your scenario is perfectly correct in telling Player A he violated a Rule. Since this is what occurred, whether or not information on the Rules is EVER advice, in this circumstance Player B was "calling" an infraction, not giving information that would influence Player A's next stroke. I am assuming doing one's duty would take precedence over any possible "advice".

I believe there is precedence when 2 "situations" like this occur.

Anyway, to answer your question, if I was the referee (G-d forbid), based on my belief that Player B acted properly, Player A would've gotten the penalty - I just don't know what the penalty IS !!! LMAO

sui generis · June 30, 2019

From penalty statement in R10.2:

Penalty for Breach of Rule 10.2: General Penalty.

From Definitions:

General Penalty

Loss of hole in match play or two penalty strokes in stroke play.

Mr. Bean · June 30, 2019

> @"sui generis" said:

> From penalty statement in R10.2:

> Penalty for Breach of Rule 10.2: General Penalty.

>

> From Definitions:

> General Penalty

> Loss of hole in match play or two penalty strokes in stroke play.

A perfect example how one needs to read the ENTIRE book, not just one Rule. Then again, this principle has not changed, it was exactly the same before 2019.

antip · July 1, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @antip said:

> > So let's apply your thinking to the course.

> > You are a referee assigned to a match play game. Player A's ball is in a divot hole and he lifts the ball and drops in a nice lie a foot away. Player B says there is no rule that allows you to do that (RK's and Mikey's signature collecting petition to RBs hasn't triumphed yet), it's a shot penalty and you must replace the ball. Player A responds that B has just made a verbal comment that is intended to influence a player in making a stroke so B gets the general penalty and loses the hole. Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......

> >

> > @antip said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > >

> > > LOL You wouldn't even point me to the Rule for a player incorrectly moving his ball out of a divot. Too many words I guess.

> > >

> > I didn't think it was a serious question because this discussion has focussed on advice-related rules issues. But happy to oblige - it is a breach of Rule 9.1a (ball to be played as it lies), the penalty is identified under Rule 9.4b and the required action (replace) under Rule 9.4a.

> >

> So next time I should start with "Serious question" ?

>

> You were the one who proposed a situation. Did you not want/expect an answer ?

>

> I read Rule 9. The reason I asked about it was multi-fold. You specified it was a "match".

>

> Firstly, I seem to recall that darn near every penalty situation in the previous edition of the Rules specified both a stroke play penalty and a match play penalty. Also seemed to me also that most every match play penalty was "loss of hole". I don't see that anywhere in Rule 9, hence part of the reason for my question. I also don't recall seeing anything about the removal of "loss of hole" penalties to "only stroke penalties even in matches". Was that a major change of the new Rules ?

>

> Secondly, is it not a player's duty to call a penalty when he sees one ? If so Player B in your scenario is perfectly correct in telling Player A he violated a Rule. Since this is what occurred, whether or not information on the Rules is EVER advice, in this circumstance Player B was "calling" an infraction, not giving information that would influence Player A's next stroke. I am assuming doing one's duty would take precedence over any possible "advice".

>

> I believe there is precedence when 2 "situations" like this occur.

>

> Anyway, to answer your question, if I was the referee (G-d forbid), based on my belief that Player B acted properly, Player A would've gotten the penalty - I just don't know what the penalty IS !!! LMAO

I have a lot of trouble trying to work out exactly what you are asking, your posts often have many issues entangled. The post above is an example, I don't know what your question is. My earlier "let's apply your thinking" post was not actually asking you anything, but it seems you took a different message. I think if you have any Rule 9 questions, they are best dealt with in a new post, I was not intending to take the 'advice' discussion in that direction.

More generally, as others have noted, 2019 has simplified the way match and stroke penalties are presented, using 'general penalty' universally where it is a 2 shot penalty (stroke) or loss of hole (match), although there is one notable exception to 2SP=loss of hole in match play (R19.3b). Other penalties, one stroke penalties and DQ, apply equally in both forms of the game unless a specific rule tells you otherwise.

nsxguy · July 2, 2019

> @antip said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > So let's apply your thinking to the course.

> > > You are a referee assigned to a match play game. Player A's ball is in a divot hole and he lifts the ball and drops in a nice lie a foot away. Player B says there is no rule that allows you to do that (RK's and Mikey's signature collecting petition to RBs hasn't triumphed yet), it's a shot penalty and you must replace the ball. Player A responds that B has just made a verbal comment that is intended to influence a player in making a stroke so B gets the general penalty and loses the hole. Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......

> > >

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > >

> > > > LOL You wouldn't even point me to the Rule for a player incorrectly moving his ball out of a divot. Too many words I guess.

> > > >

> > > I didn't think it was a serious question because this discussion has focussed on advice-related rules issues. But happy to oblige - it is a breach of Rule 9.1a (ball to be played as it lies), the penalty is identified under Rule 9.4b and the required action (replace) under Rule 9.4a.

> > >

> > So next time I should start with "Serious question" ?

> >

> > You were the one who proposed a situation. Did you not want/expect an answer ?

> >

> > I read Rule 9. The reason I asked about it was multi-fold. You specified it was a "match".

> >

> > Firstly, I seem to recall that darn near every penalty situation in the previous edition of the Rules specified both a stroke play penalty and a match play penalty. Also seemed to me also that most every match play penalty was "loss of hole". I don't see that anywhere in Rule 9, hence part of the reason for my question. I also don't recall seeing anything about the removal of "loss of hole" penalties to "only stroke penalties even in matches". Was that a major change of the new Rules ?

> >

> > Secondly, is it not a player's duty to call a penalty when he sees one ? If so Player B in your scenario is perfectly correct in telling Player A he violated a Rule. Since this is what occurred, whether or not information on the Rules is EVER advice, in this circumstance Player B was "calling" an infraction, not giving information that would influence Player A's next stroke. I am assuming doing one's duty would take precedence over any possible "advice".

> >

> > I believe there is precedence when 2 "situations" like this occur.

> >

> > Anyway, to answer your question, if I was the referee (G-d forbid), based on my belief that Player B acted properly, Player A would've gotten the penalty - I just don't know what the penalty IS !!! LMAO

>

> I have a lot of trouble trying to work out exactly what you are asking, your posts often have many issues entangled. The post above is an example, I don't know what your question is. My earlier "let's apply your thinking" post was not actually asking you anything, but it seems you took a different message. I think if you have any Rule 9 questions, they are best dealt with in a new post, I was not intending to take the 'advice' discussion in that direction.

Your post is up top. You started with "let's apply your thinking", gave a situation, and ended with " Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......"

and you were NOT asking me for a "ruling" ???

> More generally, as others have noted, 2019 has simplified the way match and stroke penalties are presented, using 'general penalty' universally where it is a 2 shot penalty (stroke) or loss of hole (match), although there is one notable exception to 2SP=loss of hole in match play (R19.3b). Other penalties, one stroke penalties and DQ, apply equally in both forms of the game unless a specific rule tells you otherwise.

edited - I see now where Sui pointed out "General Penalty" as loss of hole.

But and am I looking at the wrong thing ? R19.3b ?

Mr. Bean · July 2, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > So let's apply your thinking to the course.

> > > > You are a referee assigned to a match play game. Player A's ball is in a divot hole and he lifts the ball and drops in a nice lie a foot away. Player B says there is no rule that allows you to do that (RK's and Mikey's signature collecting petition to RBs hasn't triumphed yet), it's a shot penalty and you must replace the ball. Player A responds that B has just made a verbal comment that is intended to influence a player in making a stroke so B gets the general penalty and loses the hole. Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......

> > > >

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > >

> > > > > LOL You wouldn't even point me to the Rule for a player incorrectly moving his ball out of a divot. Too many words I guess.

> > > > >

> > > > I didn't think it was a serious question because this discussion has focussed on advice-related rules issues. But happy to oblige - it is a breach of Rule 9.1a (ball to be played as it lies), the penalty is identified under Rule 9.4b and the required action (replace) under Rule 9.4a.

> > > >

> > > So next time I should start with "Serious question" ?

> > >

> > > You were the one who proposed a situation. Did you not want/expect an answer ?

> > >

> > > I read Rule 9. The reason I asked about it was multi-fold. You specified it was a "match".

> > >

> > > Firstly, I seem to recall that darn near every penalty situation in the previous edition of the Rules specified both a stroke play penalty and a match play penalty. Also seemed to me also that most every match play penalty was "loss of hole". I don't see that anywhere in Rule 9, hence part of the reason for my question. I also don't recall seeing anything about the removal of "loss of hole" penalties to "only stroke penalties even in matches". Was that a major change of the new Rules ?

> > >

> > > Secondly, is it not a player's duty to call a penalty when he sees one ? If so Player B in your scenario is perfectly correct in telling Player A he violated a Rule. Since this is what occurred, whether or not information on the Rules is EVER advice, in this circumstance Player B was "calling" an infraction, not giving information that would influence Player A's next stroke. I am assuming doing one's duty would take precedence over any possible "advice".

> > >

> > > I believe there is precedence when 2 "situations" like this occur.

> > >

> > > Anyway, to answer your question, if I was the referee (G-d forbid), based on my belief that Player B acted properly, Player A would've gotten the penalty - I just don't know what the penalty IS !!! LMAO

> >

> > I have a lot of trouble trying to work out exactly what you are asking, your posts often have many issues entangled. The post above is an example, I don't know what your question is. My earlier "let's apply your thinking" post was not actually asking you anything, but it seems you took a different message. I think if you have any Rule 9 questions, they are best dealt with in a new post, I was not intending to take the 'advice' discussion in that direction.

>

> Your post is up top. You started with "let's apply your thinking", gave a situation, and ended with " Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......"

>

> and you were NOT asking me for a "ruling" ???

>

> > More generally, as others have noted, 2019 has simplified the way match and stroke penalties are presented, using 'general penalty' universally where it is a 2 shot penalty (stroke) or loss of hole (match), although there is one notable exception to 2SP=loss of hole in match play (R19.3b). Other penalties, one stroke penalties and DQ, apply equally in both forms of the game unless a specific rule tells you otherwise.

>

> I see where they use "General Penalty" instead of 2 shot penalty but i don't see anything related to the general penalty being loss of hole in match play. I don't see the "loss of hole" as a penalty anywhere but then again, I haven't read through a lot of Rules where that may be the case. Or is that (general penalty = loss of hole in match play) not what you meant ?

>

So you did not read post #96 by Sui?

nsxguy · July 2, 2019

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > So let's apply your thinking to the course.

> > > > > You are a referee assigned to a match play game. Player A's ball is in a divot hole and he lifts the ball and drops in a nice lie a foot away. Player B says there is no rule that allows you to do that (RK's and Mikey's signature collecting petition to RBs hasn't triumphed yet), it's a shot penalty and you must replace the ball. Player A responds that B has just made a verbal comment that is intended to influence a player in making a stroke so B gets the general penalty and loses the hole. Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......

> > > > >

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > LOL You wouldn't even point me to the Rule for a player incorrectly moving his ball out of a divot. Too many words I guess.

> > > > > >

> > > > > I didn't think it was a serious question because this discussion has focussed on advice-related rules issues. But happy to oblige - it is a breach of Rule 9.1a (ball to be played as it lies), the penalty is identified under Rule 9.4b and the required action (replace) under Rule 9.4a.

> > > > >

> > > > So next time I should start with "Serious question" ?

> > > >

> > > > You were the one who proposed a situation. Did you not want/expect an answer ?

> > > >

> > > > I read Rule 9. The reason I asked about it was multi-fold. You specified it was a "match".

> > > >

> > > > Firstly, I seem to recall that darn near every penalty situation in the previous edition of the Rules specified both a stroke play penalty and a match play penalty. Also seemed to me also that most every match play penalty was "loss of hole". I don't see that anywhere in Rule 9, hence part of the reason for my question. I also don't recall seeing anything about the removal of "loss of hole" penalties to "only stroke penalties even in matches". Was that a major change of the new Rules ?

> > > >

> > > > Secondly, is it not a player's duty to call a penalty when he sees one ? If so Player B in your scenario is perfectly correct in telling Player A he violated a Rule. Since this is what occurred, whether or not information on the Rules is EVER advice, in this circumstance Player B was "calling" an infraction, not giving information that would influence Player A's next stroke. I am assuming doing one's duty would take precedence over any possible "advice".

> > > >

> > > > I believe there is precedence when 2 "situations" like this occur.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, to answer your question, if I was the referee (G-d forbid), based on my belief that Player B acted properly, Player A would've gotten the penalty - I just don't know what the penalty IS !!! LMAO

> > >

> > > I have a lot of trouble trying to work out exactly what you are asking, your posts often have many issues entangled. The post above is an example, I don't know what your question is. My earlier "let's apply your thinking" post was not actually asking you anything, but it seems you took a different message. I think if you have any Rule 9 questions, they are best dealt with in a new post, I was not intending to take the 'advice' discussion in that direction.

> >

> > Your post is up top. You started with "let's apply your thinking", gave a situation, and ended with " Both A and B call you over seeking a ruling......"

> >

> > and you were NOT asking me for a "ruling" ???

> >

> > > More generally, as others have noted, 2019 has simplified the way match and stroke penalties are presented, using 'general penalty' universally where it is a 2 shot penalty (stroke) or loss of hole (match), although there is one notable exception to 2SP=loss of hole in match play (R19.3b). Other penalties, one stroke penalties and DQ, apply equally in both forms of the game unless a specific rule tells you otherwise.

> >

> > I see where they use "General Penalty" instead of 2 shot penalty but i don't see anything related to the general penalty being loss of hole in match play. I don't see the "loss of hole" as a penalty anywhere but then again, I haven't read through a lot of Rules where that may be the case. Or is that (general penalty = loss of hole in match play) not what you meant ?

> >

>

> So you did not read post #96 by Sui?

No, I didn't. The "notification" told me antip had mentioned me and clicking on it took me right to HIS post.

Thanks. I'll edit my post to antip.

Mr. Bean · July 2, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> edited - I see now where Sui pointed out "General Penalty" as loss of hole.

>

> But and am I looking at the wrong thing ? R19.3b ?

>

Antip wrote it in a bit confusing way. The 2SP in R19.3b is the only exception to the overall principle according to which any 2SP penalty in Stroke Play equals Loss of Hole in Match Play. So in MP it is possible to get a penalty of 2 strokes but only under R19.3b.

Augster · July 3, 2019

> @lchang said:

> OP here. Don’t know why something like this has happened to me twice within a week: this one not so controversial I think? But nonetheless, what would you have done:

>

> Paired with strangers having a match. (A $5 Nassau and some wonderfully hilarious trash talk). 4th hole, the lower cap guy about to putt for his 6, and asks his opponent what he’s in for. Higher cap responds 6. He gets a stroke on this hole, so the lower cap is about to take his ball away because he’s already lost to net 5. I say, “ummm. I think it’s a 7.” The higher cap pauses for a second and goes, “You’re right it’s a seven!” I say, “I’m sorry I didn’t mean to get involved in your match but...”. He cuts me off and says,”no no! You’re totally right. It’s a 7.” (Lower cap made his putt to halve the hole.)

>

> Would you have done the same in my position?

>

I would have told the lower cap he won the hole, if he would have putted with the bad information, after the other guy incorrectly reported the number of strokes taken.

But yes, I speak up as you did.

Sawgrass · July 3, 2019

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > edited - I see now where Sui pointed out "General Penalty" as loss of hole.

> >

> > But and am I looking at the wrong thing ? R19.3b ?

> >

>

> Antip wrote it in a bit confusing way. The 2SP in R19.3b is the only exception to the overall principle according to which any 2SP penalty in Stroke Play equals Loss of Hole in Match Play. So in MP it is possible to get a penalty of 2 strokes but only under R19.3b.

Under 19.3b and also, possibly, Local Rule E-5.

Mr. Bean · July 3, 2019

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > edited - I see now where Sui pointed out "General Penalty" as loss of hole.

> > >

> > > But and am I looking at the wrong thing ? R19.3b ?

> > >

> >

> > Antip wrote it in a bit confusing way. The 2SP in R19.3b is the only exception to the overall principle according to which any 2SP penalty in Stroke Play equals Loss of Hole in Match Play. So in MP it is possible to get a penalty of 2 strokes but only under R19.3b.

>

> Under 19.3b and also, possibly, Local Rule E-5.

Good catch, Saw.

Come to think of it, in neither of those Rules a player is in breach of that Rule, it is mere the price one needs to pay to get relief. So technically there is no breach in MP where a player may get 2 penalty strokes but he always loses the hole.