Would you have intervened?

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> I'm reminded of Jordan Spieth's unfortunate experience at this year's US Open, where he was in a deep bunker with tall grass at the high edge on the line toward the green, and his low shot cleared the bunker but hit a rake "hiding" in the high grass at the top. If a competitor playing with him had said, "Do you see that rake there?" before he hit I would not have seen that as meeting any of the three criteria presented in the definition of Advice. Perhaps the closest is, "Deciding how to play during a hole or round" but to me, this comment does not rise to that level. And a review of the Interpretations surrounding the definition of Advice doesn't lean me in the direction of a violation either -- though I openly admit that in general, this is a subjective area.

 

But if that statement was "there's a rake in the grass in front of you that could shoot your ball in any direction if you hit it", I think that is a different story. Context is also relevant in assessment of whether advice occurred and 2019 brings us clearer reference to intent - it is not simply what words/actions get used. MGA quizzes have sometimes highlighted issues in this area.

 

My point from the start was to raise an angle that went beyond the "etiquette" dimension of the early posts - specifically, when does a rules alert/issue arise in a situation like the OP. One of the most grey areas of the rules is when does information/observation cross-over and become advice and therefore a breach.

 

We get little guidance in the book. An indirect reference in 1.3c(4)/3 is interesting, the last dot point, that tells us that asking what the wind direction is constitutes a request for advice. On that guidance, responding to that request with an observation of the wind direction equally must be advice.

 

IMO, further RB Interpretation material would be helpful to better distinguish information/observation from advice.

[SNIPERBBB]

Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

[antip]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

 

Definition of advice says information on the rules is not advice.

[sailfishchris]

I would have said, "be the ball Danny".

[nsxguy]

> @antip said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

>

> Definition of advice says information on the rules is not advice.

 

You didn't answer his question.

 

I always wondered about this situation but never really delved into it as if I wasn't SURE of what I was doing/saying I simply wouldn't take the chance and keep my mouth shut.

 

But what "we" thought at the time was it depended on how you said what you said. i.e. "Your ball fell off the tee" Advice. "Did you know your ball fell off the tee ?" NOT advice.

 

Turns out, by definition, making it into a question as "Did you know,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,," IS still advice.

 

ADVICE

**Any verbal comment** or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in:

Choosing a club,

Making a stroke, or

Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

 

So whether what you say is a question or not, if it is INTENDED to influence the player's stroke, it's "advice".

 

In YOUR example, "You're allowed to re-tee", is that "information on the Rules" or is that "advice" ? You suggest it is the former and therefore no penalty.

 

Given the implied intent by SNIPERBB, "information on the Rules" or not, I'd suggest it was the latter, advice.

[Newby]

> @nsxguy said:

> So whether what you say is a question or not, if it is INTENDED to influence the player's stroke, it's "advice".

>

> In YOUR example, "You're allowed to re-tee", is that "information on the Rules" or is that "advice" ? You suggest it is the former and therefore no penalty.

>

> Given the implied intent by SNIPERBB, "information on the Rules" or not, I'd suggest it was the latter, advice.

 

You seem to be suggesting that when a referee explains to a player the procedure for taking relief from a situation, he is giving advice. Surely not.

[antip]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

> >

> > Definition of advice says information on the rules is not advice.

>

> You didn't answer his question.

>

I think I answered Sniper's question. Because I think the most logical reading of the question is "you are allowed under the rules to re-tee your ball". Under that reading of the question, it is not advice.

But you are right that if the intent of the statement was other than explaining a rule option, then it could be advice. For example, if the intent behind Sniper's words were to draw attention to a shot option the player was not apparently alert to then that is advice for potentially influencing how the player plays.

Words alone may not be enough to call it, context, actions and intent may all have a part in an assessment. Even then it can remain tricky.

 

 

 

[nsxguy]

> @Newby said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > So whether what you say is a question or not, if it is INTENDED to influence the player's stroke, it's "advice".

> >

> > In YOUR example, "You're allowed to re-tee", is that "information on the Rules" or is that "advice" ? You suggest it is the former and therefore no penalty.

> >

> > Given the implied intent by SNIPERBB, "information on the Rules" or not, I'd suggest it was the latter, advice.

>

> You seem to be suggesting that when a referee explains to a player the procedure for taking relief from a situation, he is giving advice. Surely not.

 

Not at all.

 

If the player has asked the official about the Rules, of course that is not "advice".

 

And if the official is right there and the player seems confused about what to do, in that case, I would think the official is doing his job by telling the player his options.

 

Either way however, the official can't be penalized. A fellow competitor can.

[nsxguy]

> @antip said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

> > >

> > > Definition of advice says information on the rules is not advice.

> >

> > You didn't answer his question.

> >

> I think I answered Sniper's question. Because I think the most logical reading of the question is "you are allowed under the rules to re-tee your ball". Under that reading of the question, it is not advice.

> But you are right that if the intent of the statement was other than explaining a rule option, then it could be advice. For example, if the intent behind Sniper's words were to draw attention to a shot option the player was not apparently alert to then that is advice for potentially influencing how the player plays.

> Words alone may not be enough to call it, context, actions and intent may all have a part in an assessment. Even then it can remain tricky.

>

>

>

 

"Yes" or "No" would have been an answer. You seemed to be saying "Maybe" (which is actually right).

 

The difference is what this thread is about; a ball falling over a (presumably) very low tee and the player not noticing it.

 

So in that context, now how do you feel about the FC saying "You're allowed to re-tee your ball" ?

 

[Sawgrass]

To illustrate how confusing all this can be, 10.2 says that during a round a player must not (among other things) ask anyone for advice, other than the player's caddie. Should a player walk up to a ref and ask, "What should I do?" that can conceivably be seen as requesting a suggestion on how to proceed -- or a question about how the rules apply to the given situation the ref sees the player is in.

 

For you refs out there, if after describing the choices a player has to take relief, if the player asks you, "Which one should I take?" do you give him the general penalty for asking advice? Or simply tell him that he may not ask you that?

[Newby]

If an explanation include options, I always tell the player I can't recommend which to choose.

I've never been asked the question subsequently but I think I would penalise him.

[Augster]

This is where the ruling bodies dropped the ball IMO. They simplified a lot of the rules and did a great job. I was hoping they’d do away with the advice section altogether.

 

Could it get a little silly on the Tours? Sure. But for the 99.9% of golf played, asking one of the guys in your group, “Was that an 8 or a 7?” Shouldn’t be a penalty. Additionally, they wrote the advice rule and definition so vaguely, with barely any interpretations thus far, that you can read the advice rule both ways for nearly every situation beyond, “What did you hit there?”

 

It’s frustrating, to me, that they dropped the ball on this so badly. I was in a tourney this last weekend that one of my friends asked, “Was that the niner?” After my other friend hit it close on a par 3. Like he does in 100% of casual rounds. My friend’s response was, “I’m not at liberty to discuss that at this time.” The first guy realized he had asked for advice, and then was pissed at ME. Somehow I “make” everyone follow the rules. I didn’t even say anything and wasn’t on the tee box at the time. But he was pissed at me the rest of the round and after the round.

 

Just get rid of the advice rulings and allow all advice. Subject to delay penalties of course.

[antip]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > > Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

> > > >

> > > > Definition of advice says information on the rules is not advice.

> > >

> > > You didn't answer his question.

> > >

> > I think I answered Sniper's question. Because I think the most logical reading of the question is "you are allowed under the rules to re-tee your ball". Under that reading of the question, it is not advice.

> > But you are right that if the intent of the statement was other than explaining a rule option, then it could be advice. For example, if the intent behind Sniper's words were to draw attention to a shot option the player was not apparently alert to then that is advice for potentially influencing how the player plays.

> > Words alone may not be enough to call it, context, actions and intent may all have a part in an assessment. Even then it can remain tricky.

> >

> >

> >

>

> "Yes" or "No" would have been an answer. You seemed to be saying "Maybe" (which is actually right).

>

> The difference is what this thread is about; a ball falling over a (presumably) very low tee and the player not noticing it.

>

> So in that context, now how do you feel about the FC saying "You're allowed to re-tee your ball" ?

>

The answer is above.

[nsxguy]

> @antip said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > > > Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

> > > > >

> > > > > Definition of advice says information on the rules is not advice.

> > > >

> > > > You didn't answer his question.

> > > >

> > > I think I answered Sniper's question. Because I think the most logical reading of the question is "you are allowed under the rules to re-tee your ball". Under that reading of the question, it is not advice.

> > > But you are right that if the intent of the statement was other than explaining a rule option, then it could be advice. For example, if the intent behind Sniper's words were to draw attention to a shot option the player was not apparently alert to then that is advice for potentially influencing how the player plays.

> > > Words alone may not be enough to call it, context, actions and intent may all have a part in an assessment. Even then it can remain tricky.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > "Yes" or "No" would have been an answer. You seemed to be saying "Maybe" (which is actually right).

> >

> > The difference is what this thread is about; a ball falling over a (presumably) very low tee and the player not noticing it.

> >

> > So in that context, now how do you feel about the FC saying "You're allowed to re-tee your ball" ?

> >

> The answer is above.

 

So a definite "Maybe" then. LOL

 

Thanks for your opinion.

[antip]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > > > > > Would, "your allowed to retee" count as advice.?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Definition of advice says information on the rules is not advice.

> > > > >

> > > > > You didn't answer his question.

> > > > >

> > > > I think I answered Sniper's question. Because I think the most logical reading of the question is "you are allowed under the rules to re-tee your ball". Under that reading of the question, it is not advice.

> > > > But you are right that if the intent of the statement was other than explaining a rule option, then it could be advice. For example, if the intent behind Sniper's words were to draw attention to a shot option the player was not apparently alert to then that is advice for potentially influencing how the player plays.

> > > > Words alone may not be enough to call it, context, actions and intent may all have a part in an assessment. Even then it can remain tricky.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > "Yes" or "No" would have been an answer. You seemed to be saying "Maybe" (which is actually right).

> > >

> > > The difference is what this thread is about; a ball falling over a (presumably) very low tee and the player not noticing it.

> > >

> > > So in that context, now how do you feel about the FC saying "You're allowed to re-tee your ball" ?

> > >

> > The answer is above.

>

> So a definite "Maybe" then. LOL

>

> Thanks for your opinion.

 

You're welcome.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> To illustrate how confusing all this can be, 10.2 says that during a round a player must not (among other things) ask anyone for advice, other than the player's caddie. Should a player walk up to a ref and ask, "What should I do?" that can conceivably be seen as requesting a suggestion on how to proceed -- or a question about how the rules apply to the given situation the ref sees the player is in.

>

> For you refs out there, if after describing the choices a player has to take relief, if the player asks you, "Which one should I take?" do you give him the general penalty for asking advice? Or simply tell him that he may not ask you that?

 

I'm a little befuddled as to the purpose of this question. You know the rule as well as anyone, and that is a breach. Ignorance of the rule does not void a penalty for breaching it. Or do you think the referee has a discretion?

[Ri_Redneck]

I would have jokingly said, "That's one". Odds are he would have noticed he knocked the ball off the tee and re-teed it.

 

BT

[Sawgrass]

> @antip said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > To illustrate how confusing all this can be, 10.2 says that during a round a player must not (among other things) ask anyone for advice, other than the player's caddie. Should a player walk up to a ref and ask, "What should I do?" that can conceivably be seen as requesting a suggestion on how to proceed -- or a question about how the rules apply to the given situation the ref sees the player is in.

> >

> > For you refs out there, if after describing the choices a player has to take relief, if the player asks you, "Which one should I take?" do you give him the general penalty for asking advice? Or simply tell him that he may not ask you that?

>

> I'm a little befuddled as to the purpose of this question. You know the rule as well as anyone, and that is a breach. Ignorance of the rule does not void a penalty for breaching it. Or do you think the referee has a discretion?

 

I think the rule should be changed so that a player may ask a ref anything, and that a ref should simply refuse to provide advice without calling a penalty on someone who foolishly asks. I advocate for player/ref privilege!

[Noles]

I would have said something. That isn't interfering in the match.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > To illustrate how confusing all this can be, 10.2 says that during a round a player must not (among other things) ask anyone for advice, other than the player's caddie. Should a player walk up to a ref and ask, "What should I do?" that can conceivably be seen as requesting a suggestion on how to proceed -- or a question about how the rules apply to the given situation the ref sees the player is in.

> > >

> > > For you refs out there, if after describing the choices a player has to take relief, if the player asks you, "Which one should I take?" do you give him the general penalty for asking advice? Or simply tell him that he may not ask you that?

> >

> > I'm a little befuddled as to the purpose of this question. You know the rule as well as anyone, and that is a breach. Ignorance of the rule does not void a penalty for breaching it. Or do you think the referee has a discretion?

>

> I think the rule should be changed so that a player may ask a ref anything, and that a ref should simply refuse to provide advice without calling a penalty on someone who foolishly asks. I advocate for player/ref privilege!

 

Okay, I understand the advocacy. I suggest the simple message/rule is best: you cannot ask for advice, period.

[nsxguy]

> @Ri_Redneck said:

> I would have jokingly said, "That's one". Odds are he would have noticed he knocked the ball off the tee and re-teed it.

>

> BT

 

> @Noles said:

> I would have said something. That isn't interfering in the match.

 

The conversation has morphed slightly from the match play situation originally described to stroke play (and advice of course).

 

Given the definition of advice as quoted in post 35

 

If either of you gentlemen were NOT part of the match, no penalty.

If either of you gentlemen were an opponent of the player as part of the match OR fellow competitors in stroke play, penalty for advice.

 

[Deceptively Short]

If my FC in strokeplay or opponent in matchplay tees up outside the teeing ground and I mention it, this is surely information not advice. However it might influence their stroke as they will, probably, decide not to play it. Can’t be a penalty to me can it?

[HonestPlayer]

Not if I didn't know them. If they were two friends on mine I might have depending on who it was addressing the ball and the situation at hand.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> If my FC in strokeplay or opponent in matchplay tees up outside the teeing ground and I mention it, this is surely information not advice. However it might influence their stroke as they will, probably, decide not to play it. Can’t be a penalty to me can it?

 

It is not only not a penalty on you, it is considered good sportsmanship to do so.

 

But I agree that you have to "know" this, and can't confidently decipher it simply from the words in the rule. Just like reminding a player to move his mark back to its original position.

[Newby]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> If my FC in strokeplay or opponent in matchplay tees up outside the teeing ground and I mention it, this is surely information not advice. However it might influence their stroke as they will, probably, decide not to play it. Can’t be a penalty to me can it?

Well, referees are obliged to prevent players breaching a rule if they can.

 

From USGA publication

_a referee should not stand back and watch a player tee and play his ball from outside the limits without bringing this fact to the player’s attention._

 

[antip]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> If my FC in strokeplay or opponent in matchplay tees up outside the teeing ground and I mention it, this is surely information not advice. However it might influence their stroke as they will, probably, decide not to play it. Can’t be a penalty to me can it?

 

Telling someone they are about to breach a rule before they breach it is not providing advice.

[nsxguy]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > If my FC in strokeplay or opponent in matchplay tees up outside the teeing ground and I mention it, this is surely information not advice. However it might influence their stroke as they will, probably, decide not to play it. Can’t be a penalty to me can it?

> Well, referees are obliged to prevent players breaching a rule if they can.

>

> From USGA publication

> _a referee should not stand back and watch a player tee and play his ball from outside the limits without bringing this fact to the player’s attention._

>

 

That IS interesting and in the interest of sportsmanship, appropriate IMO.

 

However, the referee is not a fellow competitor nor an opponent in a match.

 

> @antip said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > If my FC in strokeplay or opponent in matchplay tees up outside the teeing ground and I mention it, this is surely information not advice. However it might influence their stroke as they will, probably, decide not to play it. Can’t be a penalty to me can it?

>

> Telling someone they are about to breach a rule before they breach it is not providing advice.

 

For someone not a FC or a part of the match like a referee or a spectator I would agree.

 

But for a FC or opponent in a match, how so ?

 

The definition of advice quite clearly says "any verbal comment or action,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"

 

Reading further it does say

 

__But advice does not include public information, such as:

 

The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball,

 

The distance from one point to another, or

 

The Rules_."

 

Personally I don't find these things contradictory but one being inclusive of the other.

 

The fact that it (info on the Rules) is in a section about "public information", I would interpret as saying FCs and opponents may discuss rules and even options for playing by one, such as where one is allowed to drop from a penalty area or whether one may or may not tee up outside the teeing area.

 

However, while I personally really have no problem with offering a FC or opponent info so he doesn't break a rule and would even consider it an act of good sportsmanship, by the Rules themselves, even giving "information on the Rules" such as telling a FC that he is not allowed to tee up outside the teeing area when he is about to break that rule is clearly, by definition, a "verbal comment that is intended to influence a player in:

 

Choosing a club,

 

Making a stroke, or

 

Deciding how to play during a hole or round."

 

So how does one reconcile those 2 elements/definitions/whatever ?

[Newby]

I'm afraid your reading is wrong. No referee would ever penalise a player, whether opponent or not, for preventing any breach of a rule. That is what.we are taught.

Incidentally, there is no such animal as a Fellow Competitor now. Everyone is just a player.

[Sawgrass]

> @Newby said:

 

> Incidentally, there is no such animal as a Fellow Competitor now. Everyone is just a player.

 

"Fellow Competitor" is so much easier to say than, "another player playing in the same group" that I miss it. But I miss "dormie" more. Neither deletion has improved things in my opinion.

[Pepperturbo]

Say nothing about anything till someone's actions or lack thereof may cause bodily harm or affect POP. As for the ball falling off the tee when addressing the ball, seen it happen lots of times. You can count on someone nearby saying "one" loud enough so the person addressing the ball can hear it. Normal people smile and laugh.