..

[clevited]

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > @LICC you are a truly hopeless person with your need to be right. I thought I was bad enough but you take the cake. Someday, I hope you will growup a bit more and understand why you rub people the wrong way. I hope that you can better evaluate your behavior and see where you have error'd. Nobody is perfect of course, and we all fight for our opinions and get passionate about what we believe to be true,, but you dismiss and insult anyone and everyone that doesn't see it your way. If you don't understand how you insult....

> >

> > "Very weak"

> > "Baseless"

> > "Made up"

> > "facts" (using in an insulting way)

> > "Careless"

> >

> > I don't think anyone gets butt hurt by the above, but it sure will get you some fights on here. You don't respect another's point of view by how you word your replies. You keep acting like you get along with everyone yet it was pointed out earlier just how many abuse reports you have. Btw, I have not flagged you ever nor have most because if they are like me, they don't believe in doing that.

> >

> > I really do hope you learn from all of this and realize that there are better ways to have a conversation and learn and share ideas on here.

> >

> > For the record, I am very aware I come off like you do from time to time, but for me, it is mostly a mood thing lol.

>

> Maybe you shouldn't have started personal insults against me on the other thread. I have never personally insulted anyone, and I never get snarky with anyone unless they get condescending or obnoxious with me first. I don't call anyone a moron, I don't disparage their golf ability or any other personal aspect. I comment on their arguments and comments here, that's it. You take things to a personal level and that is over the line.

>

> I really do hope you can tone it down. After you personally insulted me I don't think I can ever respect you absent an apology, but I have nothing against you at all and I think you do can add value to the discussions.

 

So let me get this straight. Because you didn't like how I worded my posts, and took them as condescending you decided to reply to all of my posts with insults (yes you insult every post of mine and others, examples shown above). I have no regrets with my very direct insult in the other thread, and I am absolutely not sorry for it. If you can't handle that, well the world isn't fair right?

 

I really wanted to understand you and have a conversation with you, but how do you deal with someone that is so naive on a subject but thinks they are so right? I read some of your post in other threads and you are much more knowledgeable about those than myself (golf course history for instance). That is your domain, I will not pretend to know or challenge you, in fact I have learned a lot from some of your posts in that power thread. The technical side, and the speed side, that is my domain. I study it, love it, and know it better than the average person (and I can confidently say that). Only another person that has EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about the subject can SHOW me my errors and I will gladly accept them when they do. I want truth after all and that is how you LEARN.

[Krt22]

> @Warrior42111 said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @Warrior42111 said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @airjammer said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > @airjammer said:

> > > > > > > > Scott stallings can say he wasn’t trying to gain speed just to get in shape but he’s doing all the exercises that trainers say to do to gain

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > https://instagram.com/golf.wod?igshid=b39c4sg2l1fw

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This dude claims Scott is one of the fittest on your..so Scott got so freaking fit without gaining speed nor did he lose speed. So you are telling me he “they” tweaked his weights, reps, and explosiveness of reps so he wouldn’t get any stronger/faster just lost weight..??‍♂️ OK??

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Spieth is a interesting case. He was known as a great player with a crappy swing. He didn’t get Justin Thomas’s length imo because he couldn’t swing as hard and find his ball. There is no doubt in my mind that bigger drivers allows juniors to swing harder than with smaller headed drivers and that has lead to increase average of swing speed across the tours. That’s not what we are discussing.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Can a grown man or woman create more speed via the weightroom..yes if not already topped out genetically. The thousands of players have proven you can’t and still maintain world class speed, face, attack angle, and path control and that is not disputable. So is it a main contributor of the distance gain seen on tour...No! They created it at the junior level and replacing old golfers on the tours. Any additional yardage gained by the over 30 crowed tour players are by efficiency gains on their equipment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Whatever floats your boat bud. I would direct you to Obee's very wise comment above.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Edit: Oh and also reread the article I posted about Scott. It was said he gained clubhead speed as a result of his fitness improvements. Take from that what you will but if you think like LICC, it will fall on deaf ears.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > @clevited is as closed-minded as ever. I was hoping you would self-reflect, be less condescending in your comments, and realize the benefits of being more open-minded. You disappointed me.

> > > > >

> > > > > He is a mechanical engineer I believe so I’ll give him a pass..it’s just how they are. Just messing with ya clevited

> > > >

> > > > As a mechanical engineer myself, I can confirm we are right 85% of the time, every time, always. They don't trust us to build rockets for no reason.

> > >

> > > Whoa whoa whoa, let's let the Aerospace engineers build the rockets here haha

> > >

> > > But hey, we can all agree we're not dirty target makers, excuse me civil engineers. Lost my manners for a second there

> >

> > I'm gonna have to ask you to sit in the corner and sum all your moments for using such colorful language.

>

> Can I write Bernoulli's equation 50 times on the chalkboard instead?

 

I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[clevited]

 

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > @airjammer said:

> > > > > yes, strength training can increase speed I don’t think anyone is going to argue against that. Less for people that are already fit and more for people who are less fit.

> > > > >

> > > > > What LICC and I would say is that pro golfers are in the top 1% on the golf swing fitness level. They have swung a million? times in their life to get on the tour. Nobody on tour has shown the ability to gain significant speed 5+ mph without a swing change. There are million$ of reasons for someone to do so but it has not happened. They have the best trainers, swing coaches, dieticians, etc money can buy and nobody has done it with weight training alone..nobody. Anybody that has changed their swing and increased speed has suffered long term..Justin Rose might be a exception we will see. George Gankas has changed Lee’s and Kang’s swing dramatically but that was done by changing their positions and sequencing not by adding gym strength.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, can a newIsh dad clevited gain speed by swinging more..of course. I personally gain 3+ between April and May just by swinging more. We are more on the top 25% golf swing fitness level we might have put in 200000 swing in our life time. There is obviously room to grow on the muscle side and technique side of things.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rosco started a thread a ways back focused on his technique so obviously his swing has gotten better as well

> > > > > as his fitness. He cannot pinpoint exactly how much his strength gains contributed to his speed gains.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rangergoalie and his students are the same. He was injured so obviously he was on the lower spectrum as far as physical fitness at least on the one body part. His students weren’t coming to him to keep their swing the same so who can say how much fitness contributed to their swing either.

> > > > >

> > > > > This topic is a difficult one because you cannot change your swing or gain size or strength without changing the other. It’s absolutely not possible to do so as they are intertwined.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > As I posted in the distance thread. Phil has changed his swing and increased his fitness level well. If Phil just started lifting and grew his calves but didn’t change his swing to utilize them more..more than likely he would have saw very little in speed gains. It’s kinda like me doing pull ups. Can’t remember the last time I needed to do a pull in real practical life but I practice this and train these muscles in the gym. I will get very little from this exercise until I actually need to pull myself up in real life.

> > > >

> > > > This was a much more eloquent and respectful way of describing your stance, and LICCs stance if it is indeed this, but I would still pretty much guarantee you that you downplay what fitness can do for you even for the average tour player.

> > > >

> > > > Sure, more and more if not most all tour players keep a certain level of fitness going to help their game, problem is, you don't know what kind of fitness level each player is at nor do you know what form of fitness they pursue and why.

> > > >

> > > > -It could be they run and stretch and stuff every day to keep their endurance up for 72 holes.

> > > > -It could be to primarily prevent injury.

> > > > -It could be all vanity.

> > > > -It could be to gain speed.

> > > >

> > > > I have swung the golf club probably more than any typical person other than a tour player. I am as golf strong as I can get from just swinging the club. I also swing it as hard as I absolutely can and operate at my limit as often as I can to maintain and improve it. Not all tour pro's were shown or taught to do that. You might say they have more in the tank and don't know it. So for instance, lets pretend Jordan Speith is this way. Perhaps he was taught, or decided to never swing too hard and always be in control at the range or what have you. Many teachers do still teach this even at a young age. The old swing nice and easy advice. You don't learn to swing fast or build the strength needed to do so by swinging nice and easy. You have to practice it, you have to work on it. One way is by overspeed training which is a heck of a workout and basically what I have done.

> > > >

> > > > I would say that more and more tour players are growing up learning to reach their speed limit and then learning to control it than ever before. They might do that via how I did and that is pretty much it, or they might have also added strength training in other forms to up their limit and or make their current limit more usable. They may or may not have done all that before they hit the tour.

> > > >

> > > > You are absolutely correct that swing changes can add speed. Sequencing can add speed. I could sort of make the same argument you are though regarding that. Wouldn't you think all of these pro's already have super efficient and as fast as they can (with control) swings already? Just guessing on this, but I think most of them do. It is dangerous to change a swing too much but you could say getting a little stronger in the gym so you can turn up the juice and remain in control is less dangerous.

> > > >

> > > > Absolutely nobody can say that golf specific fitness cannot add speed and therefore distance to any individual even a tour player. You don't know their physical condition, you don't know where they could use improvement, you don't know any of that. You can however with certainty because it has worked for many, that golf specific fitness can (because it has a for a huge number of people), help increase a person's swing speed and therefore distance they can hit the ball.

> > > >

> > > > Before LICC comes in here and gets all hostile and says THAT'S BASELESS or his other usual crap, that is obviously all opinion sprinkled with my own personal experience and observations. It was done to try and convey a point and why possibly the people in this thread are against his and your thinking.

> > > >

> > > > Unless you undertake some of these trainings, exercises etc and see for yourself if they work or not, you cannot possibly understand, especially if you are not willing to accept the experiences of others as proof.

> > >

> > > You cannot show any Tour player that increased distanced solely from fitness training. For all your theorizing and pondering, you don't have results to verify your speculation. I can point to a Tour player who went from unfit and overweight to very fit and strong from his training, who did not gain distance from all of that fitness work. Results talk, **baseless speculation** walks ...

> >

> > You didn't disappoint.

> >

> > Edit: Also, good simulators don't vary much, bad simulators do. I am sure Rosco knows what he has and can verify that his numbers are very real. I believe him whole heartedly because I know it is very possible by even an average joe. I am not far behind him for instance at 185-190 max.

>

> No "average joe" is coming even close to 185mph ball speed. That's just more careless "facts" by you.

 

Forgot to address this. I consider myself an average joe. I can reach ball speeds of 185-190 mph maximum. I view those as facts, or are you telling me I am not an average joe, or are you telling me I can't hit 185-190?

[LICC]

> @clevited said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @clevited said:

> > > @LICC you are a truly hopeless person with your need to be right. I thought I was bad enough but you take the cake. Someday, I hope you will growup a bit more and understand why you rub people the wrong way. I hope that you can better evaluate your behavior and see where you have error'd. Nobody is perfect of course, and we all fight for our opinions and get passionate about what we believe to be true,, but you dismiss and insult anyone and everyone that doesn't see it your way. If you don't understand how you insult....

> > >

> > > "Very weak"

> > > "Baseless"

> > > "Made up"

> > > "facts" (using in an insulting way)

> > > "Careless"

> > >

> > > I don't think anyone gets butt hurt by the above, but it sure will get you some fights on here. You don't respect another's point of view by how you word your replies. You keep acting like you get along with everyone yet it was pointed out earlier just how many abuse reports you have. Btw, I have not flagged you ever nor have most because if they are like me, they don't believe in doing that.

> > >

> > > I really do hope you learn from all of this and realize that there are better ways to have a conversation and learn and share ideas on here.

> > >

> > > For the record, I am very aware I come off like you do from time to time, but for me, it is mostly a mood thing lol.

> >

> > Maybe you shouldn't have started personal insults against me on the other thread. I have never personally insulted anyone, and I never get snarky with anyone unless they get condescending or obnoxious with me first. I don't call anyone a moron, I don't disparage their golf ability or any other personal aspect. I comment on their arguments and comments here, that's it. You take things to a personal level and that is over the line.

> >

> > I really do hope you can tone it down. After you personally insulted me I don't think I can ever respect you absent an apology, but I have nothing against you at all and I think you do can add value to the discussions.

>

> So let me get this straight. Because you didn't like how I worded my posts, and took them as condescending you decided to reply to all of my posts with insults (yes you insult every post of mine and others, examples shown above). I have no regrets with my very direct insult in the other thread, and I am absolutely not sorry for it. If you can't handle that, well the world isn't fair right?

>

> I really wanted to understand you and have a conversation with you, but how do you deal with someone that is so naive on a subject but thinks they are so right? I read some of your post in other threads and you are much more knowledgeable about those than myself (golf course history for instance). That is your domain, I will not pretend to know or challenge you, in fact I have learned a lot from some of your posts in that power thread. The technical side, and the speed side, that is my domain. I study it, love it, and know it better than the average person (and I can confidently say that). Only another person that has EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about the subject can SHOW me my errors and I will gladly accept them when they do. I want truth after all and that is how you LEARN.

 

So you don't accept contrary analysis from someone who you feel you have more knowledge. And you think it is fine to level personal insults when someone criticizes your golf arguments. That says a lot.

[LICC]

> @clevited said:

>

> > @LICC said:

> > > @clevited said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > @airjammer said:

> > > > > > yes, strength training can increase speed I don’t think anyone is going to argue against that. Less for people that are already fit and more for people who are less fit.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What LICC and I would say is that pro golfers are in the top 1% on the golf swing fitness level. They have swung a million? times in their life to get on the tour. Nobody on tour has shown the ability to gain significant speed 5+ mph without a swing change. There are million$ of reasons for someone to do so but it has not happened. They have the best trainers, swing coaches, dieticians, etc money can buy and nobody has done it with weight training alone..nobody. Anybody that has changed their swing and increased speed has suffered long term..Justin Rose might be a exception we will see. George Gankas has changed Lee’s and Kang’s swing dramatically but that was done by changing their positions and sequencing not by adding gym strength.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, can a newIsh dad clevited gain speed by swinging more..of course. I personally gain 3+ between April and May just by swinging more. We are more on the top 25% golf swing fitness level we might have put in 200000 swing in our life time. There is obviously room to grow on the muscle side and technique side of things.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rosco started a thread a ways back focused on his technique so obviously his swing has gotten better as well

> > > > > > as his fitness. He cannot pinpoint exactly how much his strength gains contributed to his speed gains.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rangergoalie and his students are the same. He was injured so obviously he was on the lower spectrum as far as physical fitness at least on the one body part. His students weren’t coming to him to keep their swing the same so who can say how much fitness contributed to their swing either.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This topic is a difficult one because you cannot change your swing or gain size or strength without changing the other. It’s absolutely not possible to do so as they are intertwined.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As I posted in the distance thread. Phil has changed his swing and increased his fitness level well. If Phil just started lifting and grew his calves but didn’t change his swing to utilize them more..more than likely he would have saw very little in speed gains. It’s kinda like me doing pull ups. Can’t remember the last time I needed to do a pull in real practical life but I practice this and train these muscles in the gym. I will get very little from this exercise until I actually need to pull myself up in real life.

> > > > >

> > > > > This was a much more eloquent and respectful way of describing your stance, and LICCs stance if it is indeed this, but I would still pretty much guarantee you that you downplay what fitness can do for you even for the average tour player.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure, more and more if not most all tour players keep a certain level of fitness going to help their game, problem is, you don't know what kind of fitness level each player is at nor do you know what form of fitness they pursue and why.

> > > > >

> > > > > -It could be they run and stretch and stuff every day to keep their endurance up for 72 holes.

> > > > > -It could be to primarily prevent injury.

> > > > > -It could be all vanity.

> > > > > -It could be to gain speed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have swung the golf club probably more than any typical person other than a tour player. I am as golf strong as I can get from just swinging the club. I also swing it as hard as I absolutely can and operate at my limit as often as I can to maintain and improve it. Not all tour pro's were shown or taught to do that. You might say they have more in the tank and don't know it. So for instance, lets pretend Jordan Speith is this way. Perhaps he was taught, or decided to never swing too hard and always be in control at the range or what have you. Many teachers do still teach this even at a young age. The old swing nice and easy advice. You don't learn to swing fast or build the strength needed to do so by swinging nice and easy. You have to practice it, you have to work on it. One way is by overspeed training which is a heck of a workout and basically what I have done.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would say that more and more tour players are growing up learning to reach their speed limit and then learning to control it than ever before. They might do that via how I did and that is pretty much it, or they might have also added strength training in other forms to up their limit and or make their current limit more usable. They may or may not have done all that before they hit the tour.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are absolutely correct that swing changes can add speed. Sequencing can add speed. I could sort of make the same argument you are though regarding that. Wouldn't you think all of these pro's already have super efficient and as fast as they can (with control) swings already? Just guessing on this, but I think most of them do. It is dangerous to change a swing too much but you could say getting a little stronger in the gym so you can turn up the juice and remain in control is less dangerous.

> > > > >

> > > > > Absolutely nobody can say that golf specific fitness cannot add speed and therefore distance to any individual even a tour player. You don't know their physical condition, you don't know where they could use improvement, you don't know any of that. You can however with certainty because it has worked for many, that golf specific fitness can (because it has a for a huge number of people), help increase a person's swing speed and therefore distance they can hit the ball.

> > > > >

> > > > > Before LICC comes in here and gets all hostile and says THAT'S BASELESS or his other usual crap, that is obviously all opinion sprinkled with my own personal experience and observations. It was done to try and convey a point and why possibly the people in this thread are against his and your thinking.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unless you undertake some of these trainings, exercises etc and see for yourself if they work or not, you cannot possibly understand, especially if you are not willing to accept the experiences of others as proof.

> > > >

> > > > You cannot show any Tour player that increased distanced solely from fitness training. For all your theorizing and pondering, you don't have results to verify your speculation. I can point to a Tour player who went from unfit and overweight to very fit and strong from his training, who did not gain distance from all of that fitness work. Results talk, **baseless speculation** walks ...

> > >

> > > You didn't disappoint.

> > >

> > > Edit: Also, good simulators don't vary much, bad simulators do. I am sure Rosco knows what he has and can verify that his numbers are very real. I believe him whole heartedly because I know it is very possible by even an average joe. I am not far behind him for instance at 185-190 max.

> >

> > No "average joe" is coming even close to 185mph ball speed. That's just more careless "facts" by you.

>

> Forgot to address this. I consider myself an average joe. I can reach ball speeds of 185-190 mph maximum. I view those as facts, or are you telling me I am not an average joe, or are you telling me I can't hit 185-190?

 

If you hit 185-190 ball speeds, you are in no form an average joe. You are in the exceptional, top 1%ile freak athlete category.

[clevited]

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @clevited said:

> > > > @LICC you are a truly hopeless person with your need to be right. I thought I was bad enough but you take the cake. Someday, I hope you will growup a bit more and understand why you rub people the wrong way. I hope that you can better evaluate your behavior and see where you have error'd. Nobody is perfect of course, and we all fight for our opinions and get passionate about what we believe to be true,, but you dismiss and insult anyone and everyone that doesn't see it your way. If you don't understand how you insult....

> > > >

> > > > "Very weak"

> > > > "Baseless"

> > > > "Made up"

> > > > "facts" (using in an insulting way)

> > > > "Careless"

> > > >

> > > > I don't think anyone gets butt hurt by the above, but it sure will get you some fights on here. You don't respect another's point of view by how you word your replies. You keep acting like you get along with everyone yet it was pointed out earlier just how many abuse reports you have. Btw, I have not flagged you ever nor have most because if they are like me, they don't believe in doing that.

> > > >

> > > > I really do hope you learn from all of this and realize that there are better ways to have a conversation and learn and share ideas on here.

> > > >

> > > > For the record, I am very aware I come off like you do from time to time, but for me, it is mostly a mood thing lol.

> > >

> > > Maybe you shouldn't have started personal insults against me on the other thread. I have never personally insulted anyone, and I never get snarky with anyone unless they get condescending or obnoxious with me first. I don't call anyone a moron, I don't disparage their golf ability or any other personal aspect. I comment on their arguments and comments here, that's it. You take things to a personal level and that is over the line.

> > >

> > > I really do hope you can tone it down. After you personally insulted me I don't think I can ever respect you absent an apology, but I have nothing against you at all and I think you do can add value to the discussions.

> >

> > So let me get this straight. Because you didn't like how I worded my posts, and took them as condescending you decided to reply to all of my posts with insults (yes you insult every post of mine and others, examples shown above). I have no regrets with my very direct insult in the other thread, and I am absolutely not sorry for it. If you can't handle that, well the world isn't fair right?

> >

> > I really wanted to understand you and have a conversation with you, but how do you deal with someone that is so naive on a subject but thinks they are so right? I read some of your post in other threads and you are much more knowledgeable about those than myself (golf course history for instance). That is your domain, I will not pretend to know or challenge you, in fact I have learned a lot from some of your posts in that power thread. The technical side, and the speed side, that is my domain. I study it, love it, and know it better than the average person (and I can confidently say that). Only another person that has EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about the subject can SHOW me my errors and I will gladly accept them when they do. I want truth after all and that is how you LEARN.

>

> So you don't accept contrary analysis from someone who you feel you have more knowledge. And you think it is fine to level personal insults when someone criticizes your golf arguments. That says a lot.

 

I accept well thought out contrary analysis. I am telling you that I see your posts absolutely as comparable to flat earth people. There is no reasoning with or teaching them anything and I tried very hard with you but you act the same. Take that as an insult if you like, but I can think of no other comparison.

 

I insulted you when it was clear you were not a reasonable person and because you had dozens of insults to me and other people. I got sick of your BS and called you out on it. You can choose to let that bother you forever or move on. Your choice.

[Commack350Z]

Let's just wait until Bryson Dechambeau shows up with 250 pounds of pure muscle and see how far he hits it. Then we shall see who is right or wrong. LOL

[clevited]

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> >

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > @airjammer said:

> > > > > > > yes, strength training can increase speed I don’t think anyone is going to argue against that. Less for people that are already fit and more for people who are less fit.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What LICC and I would say is that pro golfers are in the top 1% on the golf swing fitness level. They have swung a million? times in their life to get on the tour. Nobody on tour has shown the ability to gain significant speed 5+ mph without a swing change. There are million$ of reasons for someone to do so but it has not happened. They have the best trainers, swing coaches, dieticians, etc money can buy and nobody has done it with weight training alone..nobody. Anybody that has changed their swing and increased speed has suffered long term..Justin Rose might be a exception we will see. George Gankas has changed Lee’s and Kang’s swing dramatically but that was done by changing their positions and sequencing not by adding gym strength.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, can a newIsh dad clevited gain speed by swinging more..of course. I personally gain 3+ between April and May just by swinging more. We are more on the top 25% golf swing fitness level we might have put in 200000 swing in our life time. There is obviously room to grow on the muscle side and technique side of things.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rosco started a thread a ways back focused on his technique so obviously his swing has gotten better as well

> > > > > > > as his fitness. He cannot pinpoint exactly how much his strength gains contributed to his speed gains.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Rangergoalie and his students are the same. He was injured so obviously he was on the lower spectrum as far as physical fitness at least on the one body part. His students weren’t coming to him to keep their swing the same so who can say how much fitness contributed to their swing either.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This topic is a difficult one because you cannot change your swing or gain size or strength without changing the other. It’s absolutely not possible to do so as they are intertwined.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As I posted in the distance thread. Phil has changed his swing and increased his fitness level well. If Phil just started lifting and grew his calves but didn’t change his swing to utilize them more..more than likely he would have saw very little in speed gains. It’s kinda like me doing pull ups. Can’t remember the last time I needed to do a pull in real practical life but I practice this and train these muscles in the gym. I will get very little from this exercise until I actually need to pull myself up in real life.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This was a much more eloquent and respectful way of describing your stance, and LICCs stance if it is indeed this, but I would still pretty much guarantee you that you downplay what fitness can do for you even for the average tour player.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sure, more and more if not most all tour players keep a certain level of fitness going to help their game, problem is, you don't know what kind of fitness level each player is at nor do you know what form of fitness they pursue and why.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -It could be they run and stretch and stuff every day to keep their endurance up for 72 holes.

> > > > > > -It could be to primarily prevent injury.

> > > > > > -It could be all vanity.

> > > > > > -It could be to gain speed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have swung the golf club probably more than any typical person other than a tour player. I am as golf strong as I can get from just swinging the club. I also swing it as hard as I absolutely can and operate at my limit as often as I can to maintain and improve it. Not all tour pro's were shown or taught to do that. You might say they have more in the tank and don't know it. So for instance, lets pretend Jordan Speith is this way. Perhaps he was taught, or decided to never swing too hard and always be in control at the range or what have you. Many teachers do still teach this even at a young age. The old swing nice and easy advice. You don't learn to swing fast or build the strength needed to do so by swinging nice and easy. You have to practice it, you have to work on it. One way is by overspeed training which is a heck of a workout and basically what I have done.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would say that more and more tour players are growing up learning to reach their speed limit and then learning to control it than ever before. They might do that via how I did and that is pretty much it, or they might have also added strength training in other forms to up their limit and or make their current limit more usable. They may or may not have done all that before they hit the tour.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are absolutely correct that swing changes can add speed. Sequencing can add speed. I could sort of make the same argument you are though regarding that. Wouldn't you think all of these pro's already have super efficient and as fast as they can (with control) swings already? Just guessing on this, but I think most of them do. It is dangerous to change a swing too much but you could say getting a little stronger in the gym so you can turn up the juice and remain in control is less dangerous.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Absolutely nobody can say that golf specific fitness cannot add speed and therefore distance to any individual even a tour player. You don't know their physical condition, you don't know where they could use improvement, you don't know any of that. You can however with certainty because it has worked for many, that golf specific fitness can (because it has a for a huge number of people), help increase a person's swing speed and therefore distance they can hit the ball.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Before LICC comes in here and gets all hostile and says THAT'S BASELESS or his other usual crap, that is obviously all opinion sprinkled with my own personal experience and observations. It was done to try and convey a point and why possibly the people in this thread are against his and your thinking.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unless you undertake some of these trainings, exercises etc and see for yourself if they work or not, you cannot possibly understand, especially if you are not willing to accept the experiences of others as proof.

> > > > >

> > > > > You cannot show any Tour player that increased distanced solely from fitness training. For all your theorizing and pondering, you don't have results to verify your speculation. I can point to a Tour player who went from unfit and overweight to very fit and strong from his training, who did not gain distance from all of that fitness work. Results talk, **baseless speculation** walks ...

> > > >

> > > > You didn't disappoint.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: Also, good simulators don't vary much, bad simulators do. I am sure Rosco knows what he has and can verify that his numbers are very real. I believe him whole heartedly because I know it is very possible by even an average joe. I am not far behind him for instance at 185-190 max.

> > >

> > > No "average joe" is coming even close to 185mph ball speed. That's just more careless "facts" by you.

> >

> > Forgot to address this. I consider myself an average joe. I can reach ball speeds of 185-190 mph maximum. I view those as facts, or are you telling me I am not an average joe, or are you telling me I can't hit 185-190?

>

> If you hit 185-190 ball speeds, you are in no form an average joe. You are in the exceptional, top 1%ile freak athlete category.

 

Why thank you. My dad bod loves hearing that. Maybe I won't hit the gym afterall lol.

 

You know, I am a firm believer that you can get way up there too if you really want it. I seriously went from 105 mph (MAX) to over 120 (MAX). I was nothing special. I am 6ft and I didn't play very many sports except with friends growing up. I can't dunk, I can't bench press my weight (anymore, again, dad bod) but I can crush a golf ball. I have spent a lot of time online trying to inspire guys like you to go after speed. Read up on the superspeed golf thread and see. Tons of those guys are making pretty significant improvements just by doing that. Others are just using it as part of their current workout. I don't know for sure where you are at but unless you have a nagging injury, are north of 50 years old (not impossible but makes it tougher), or have no arms or legs, you can get to 110 maybe even 115 swing speed, I would be willing to bet money on that. It isn't easy, it takes time but it can be done.

[LICC]

> @clevited said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @clevited said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > @LICC you are a truly hopeless person with your need to be right. I thought I was bad enough but you take the cake. Someday, I hope you will growup a bit more and understand why you rub people the wrong way. I hope that you can better evaluate your behavior and see where you have error'd. Nobody is perfect of course, and we all fight for our opinions and get passionate about what we believe to be true,, but you dismiss and insult anyone and everyone that doesn't see it your way. If you don't understand how you insult....

> > > > >

> > > > > "Very weak"

> > > > > "Baseless"

> > > > > "Made up"

> > > > > "facts" (using in an insulting way)

> > > > > "Careless"

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think anyone gets butt hurt by the above, but it sure will get you some fights on here. You don't respect another's point of view by how you word your replies. You keep acting like you get along with everyone yet it was pointed out earlier just how many abuse reports you have. Btw, I have not flagged you ever nor have most because if they are like me, they don't believe in doing that.

> > > > >

> > > > > I really do hope you learn from all of this and realize that there are better ways to have a conversation and learn and share ideas on here.

> > > > >

> > > > > For the record, I am very aware I come off like you do from time to time, but for me, it is mostly a mood thing lol.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe you shouldn't have started personal insults against me on the other thread. I have never personally insulted anyone, and I never get snarky with anyone unless they get condescending or obnoxious with me first. I don't call anyone a moron, I don't disparage their golf ability or any other personal aspect. I comment on their arguments and comments here, that's it. You take things to a personal level and that is over the line.

> > > >

> > > > I really do hope you can tone it down. After you personally insulted me I don't think I can ever respect you absent an apology, but I have nothing against you at all and I think you do can add value to the discussions.

> > >

> > > So let me get this straight. Because you didn't like how I worded my posts, and took them as condescending you decided to reply to all of my posts with insults (yes you insult every post of mine and others, examples shown above). I have no regrets with my very direct insult in the other thread, and I am absolutely not sorry for it. If you can't handle that, well the world isn't fair right?

> > >

> > > I really wanted to understand you and have a conversation with you, but how do you deal with someone that is so naive on a subject but thinks they are so right? I read some of your post in other threads and you are much more knowledgeable about those than myself (golf course history for instance). That is your domain, I will not pretend to know or challenge you, in fact I have learned a lot from some of your posts in that power thread. The technical side, and the speed side, that is my domain. I study it, love it, and know it better than the average person (and I can confidently say that). Only another person that has EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about the subject can SHOW me my errors and I will gladly accept them when they do. I want truth after all and that is how you LEARN.

> >

> > So you don't accept contrary analysis from someone who you feel you have more knowledge. And you think it is fine to level personal insults when someone criticizes your golf arguments. That says a lot.

>

> I accept well thought out contrary analysis. I am telling you that I see your posts absolutely as comparable to flat earth people. There is no reasoning with or teaching them anything and I tried very hard with you but you act the same. Take that as an insult if you like, but I can think of no other comparison.

>

> I insulted you when it was clear you were not a reasonable person and because you had dozens of insults to me and other people. I got sick of your BS and called you out on it. You can choose to let that bother you forever or move on. Your choice.

 

I'm not bothered in the least. I don't respect anyone that spews personal insults.

[clevited]

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > @LICC you are a truly hopeless person with your need to be right. I thought I was bad enough but you take the cake. Someday, I hope you will growup a bit more and understand why you rub people the wrong way. I hope that you can better evaluate your behavior and see where you have error'd. Nobody is perfect of course, and we all fight for our opinions and get passionate about what we believe to be true,, but you dismiss and insult anyone and everyone that doesn't see it your way. If you don't understand how you insult....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Very weak"

> > > > > > "Baseless"

> > > > > > "Made up"

> > > > > > "facts" (using in an insulting way)

> > > > > > "Careless"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think anyone gets butt hurt by the above, but it sure will get you some fights on here. You don't respect another's point of view by how you word your replies. You keep acting like you get along with everyone yet it was pointed out earlier just how many abuse reports you have. Btw, I have not flagged you ever nor have most because if they are like me, they don't believe in doing that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I really do hope you learn from all of this and realize that there are better ways to have a conversation and learn and share ideas on here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For the record, I am very aware I come off like you do from time to time, but for me, it is mostly a mood thing lol.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe you shouldn't have started personal insults against me on the other thread. I have never personally insulted anyone, and I never get snarky with anyone unless they get condescending or obnoxious with me first. I don't call anyone a moron, I don't disparage their golf ability or any other personal aspect. I comment on their arguments and comments here, that's it. You take things to a personal level and that is over the line.

> > > > >

> > > > > I really do hope you can tone it down. After you personally insulted me I don't think I can ever respect you absent an apology, but I have nothing against you at all and I think you do can add value to the discussions.

> > > >

> > > > So let me get this straight. Because you didn't like how I worded my posts, and took them as condescending you decided to reply to all of my posts with insults (yes you insult every post of mine and others, examples shown above). I have no regrets with my very direct insult in the other thread, and I am absolutely not sorry for it. If you can't handle that, well the world isn't fair right?

> > > >

> > > > I really wanted to understand you and have a conversation with you, but how do you deal with someone that is so naive on a subject but thinks they are so right? I read some of your post in other threads and you are much more knowledgeable about those than myself (golf course history for instance). That is your domain, I will not pretend to know or challenge you, in fact I have learned a lot from some of your posts in that power thread. The technical side, and the speed side, that is my domain. I study it, love it, and know it better than the average person (and I can confidently say that). Only another person that has EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about the subject can SHOW me my errors and I will gladly accept them when they do. I want truth after all and that is how you LEARN.

> > >

> > > So you don't accept contrary analysis from someone who you feel you have more knowledge. And you think it is fine to level personal insults when someone criticizes your golf arguments. That says a lot.

> >

> > I accept well thought out contrary analysis. I am telling you that I see your posts absolutely as comparable to flat earth people. There is no reasoning with or teaching them anything and I tried very hard with you but you act the same. Take that as an insult if you like, but I can think of no other comparison.

> >

> > I insulted you when it was clear you were not a reasonable person and because you had dozens of insults to me and other people. I got sick of your BS and called you out on it. You can choose to let that bother you forever or move on. Your choice.

>

> I'm not bothered in the least. I don't respect anyone that spews personal insults.

 

So then you don't respect yourself?

[Ghost of Snead]

> @clevited said:

>

> So then you don't respect yourself?

 

How bout you take your tea party to PMs before the thread gets shut down ?

 

 

[Trav1989]

@clevited don’t know if you have said but I am sure you have but I will ask anyway but what workouts did you do to gain speed and witch do you think is the most important

[Trav1989]

Which

[clevited]

> @Trav1989 said:

> @clevited don’t know if you have said but I am sure you have but I will ask anyway but what workouts did you do to gain speed and witch do you think is the most important

 

The only workout i have done is go to the range 2 or 3 times a week and hit about 100 to 200 golf balls as hard as I can. Monitored improvements with radar and kept going for new PBs.

 

Now I maintain and have small improvements by swinging a weighted club I built in my garage and by wailing on some drivers into a net.

 

The radar is the key tool. Gives you obtainable goals via incremental improvements.

[LICC]

> @clevited said:

> > @Trav1989 said:

> > @clevited don’t know if you have said but I am sure you have but I will ask anyway but what workouts did you do to gain speed and witch do you think is the most important

>

> The only workout i have done is go to the range 2 or 3 times a week and hit about 100 to 200 golf balls as hard as I can. Monitored improvements with radar and kept going for new PBs.

>

> Now I maintain and have small improvements by swinging a weighted club I built in my garage and by wailing on some drivers into a net.

>

> The radar is the key tool. Gives you obtainable goals via incremental improvements.

 

You are not even talking about workouts and weight training, just swinging a weighted club?? Oh boy ...

[clevited]

> @Trav1989 said:

> @clevited don’t know if you have said but I am sure you have but I will ask anyway but what workouts did you do to gain speed and witch do you think is the most important

 

I forgot to answer your question about what is most important. I really think there is a lot of value in pushing your body as it stands today, to the limit with over speed type training, which is what I consider what I did. It will help you learn to fire muscles fast, and condition the ones you have to be stronger. You can get a long ways with that before even needing to set foot in a gym. Go check out the super speed golf thread. That is a good place to start, or just wail on the driver like I did.

[airjammer]

> @Rosco1216 said:

> @LICC said:

> > > @airjammer said:

> > > Scott stallings can say he wasn’t trying to gain speed just to get in shape but he’s doing all the exercises that trainers say to do to gain

> > >

> > > https://instagram.com/golf.wod?igshid=b39c4sg2l1fw

> > >

> > > This dude claims Scott is one of the fittest on your..so Scott got so freaking fit without gaining speed nor did he lose speed. So you are telling me he “they” tweaked his weights, reps, and explosiveness of reps so he wouldn’t get any stronger/faster just lost weight..??‍♂️ OK??

> > >

> > > Spieth is a interesting case. He was known as a great player with a crappy swing. He didn’t get Justin Thomas’s length imo because he couldn’t swing as hard and find his ball. There is no doubt in my mind that bigger drivers allows juniors to swing harder than with smaller headed drivers and that has lead to increase average of swing speed across the tours. That’s not what we are discussing.

> > >

> > > Can a grown man or woman create more speed via the weightroom..yes if not already topped out genetically. The thousands of players have proven you can’t and still maintain world class speed, face, attack angle, and path control and that is not disputable. So is it a main contributor of the distance gain seen on tour...No! They created it at the junior level and replacing old golfers on the tours. Any additional yardage gained by the over 30 crowed tour players are by efficiency gains on their equipment.

> >

> > Excellent point. @Rosco1216 's theory that Stalling's fitness routines just weren't the right ones to increase distance is weak. Very weak.

>

> My theory is weak? It’s not a theory bud. He’s CrossFit without the Olympic lifting intensity as to not risk injury. He’s incredibly fit and can work at max outpost for a much longer duration than before. But his maximal power output hasn’t increased significantly because he does not train for it. He doesn’t Olympic lift, deadlift or squat heavy(certainly not above 80% of his 1RM) and often multiple times a week, every week for months and months.

>

> That is what it takes to build power once you’re already efficient in the swing and at a good overall fitness level. He simply can’t if he has to play golf every day for a living. No tour pro can put themselves through that kind of training intensity daily in the gym and then be able to go out to the course and practice and play at their top level.

>

>

 

Whoa it’s not how much you lift but the explosiveness of which you lift or swing. Superspeed has proven to increase speed with just a 15% increase is club weight.

 

> @LICC said:

> > @clevited said:

> > > @Trav1989 said:

> > > @clevited don’t know if you have said but I am sure you have but I will ask anyway but what workouts did you do to gain speed and witch do you think is the most important

> >

> > The only workout i have done is go to the range 2 or 3 times a week and hit about 100 to 200 golf balls as hard as I can. Monitored improvements with radar and kept going for new PBs.

> >

> > Now I maintain and have small improvements by swinging a weighted club I built in my garage and by wailing on some drivers into a net.

> >

> > The radar is the key tool. Gives you obtainable goals via incremental improvements.

>

> You are not even talking about workouts and weight training, just swinging a weighted club?? Oh boy ...

 

It is lifting weights just tiny ones?..I consider under over speed working out. Very few can find their ball consistently on the same hole after a few months of doing that but more power to them. It does work for select few that had a mental barrier to swinging fast but those aren’t pros.

 

 

This is 2019 and 2018 distance stats. Most everyone on this list lost a yard or so fo whatever reason but what is important is that Stallings and Hadley must have the same trainer telling them not to lift weights in a manner that would increase or decrease their speed??‍♂️ Obviously if Stallings says he gained speed I believe him but just as obvious it didn’t show up on the course with the driver. So was it a meaningful gain..absolutely not so please find someone else. This data for the engineering group who has no data showing their case on Stallings.

[Trav1989]

Thank you for the response @clevited

[clevited]

> @Trav1989 said:

> Thank you for the response @clevited

 

You are welcome, hope it was helpful. Good luck with your endeavor.

[LICC]

Watching the LPGA today, it struck me about the folly of this view that weight training has significantly increased distance. The LPGA average distance gains from 20 years ago are the same as the men’s Tour, and even higher on a percentage basis. Are all these ladies golfers doing weight training all of a sudden? It’s the modern equipment that has resulted in distance gains. Full stop.

[GoGoErky]

Yes the ladies are doing weight and resistance training. Several use the same trainer as the men.

[GoGoErky]

Even though you don’t accept golfers or their coaches saying that training has given them distance gets an interview with lexi about working out and crediting her training to gaining distance https://www.fortlauderdaledaily.com/upfront/balance/lexi-thompson-interview

[oikos1]

Why would anyone believe the words of the actual athletes who claim to experience gains from working out? Hasn't LICC disproven this with just his thoughts time and time again.

Q: How has working with Florida Panthers strength and conditioning coach Craig Slaunwhite improved your game?

A: Craig has been amazing for my physical conditioning and game. He has allowed me to gain some length and my stamina is much better as I am in tremendous shape!

-Lexi Thompson

[GoGoErky]

Can’t wait to see his response.

[airjammer]

 

2012 and 2019 Lexi..5 whole yards. I bet there hasn’t been a harder worker in the gym during that time period. So there you have it..5 whole yards in 7 years. So the equipment is worth 30-35 yards?

[LICC]

Lexi’s average driving distance her rookie year, 2012- 272

Lexi’s average driving distance in 2018- 272

[GoGoErky]

You are so focused on one stat that is an average with one club. She literally said training gave her more distance. That would go for every club in the bag. You are just arguing to argue at this point just so you don’t have to admit you are wrong

[LICC]

It’s the most telling, applicable stat to the point at issue. You can have your view based on feelings but you can’t change the facts.

[GoGoErky]

Feelings are what you are going off of. I’m using scientific studies, coaches and players giving first hand feedback.

you ignore these for all stat that accounts for 2 shots in a tournament with one club. Arguing with you is pointless at this point and I’m truly out.

[airjammer]

Also can’t go on what people say when asked about their trainers specifically. I mean what is she supposed to say “I really cannot tell much of a difference but I keep showing up”??‍♂️

 

So someone please pull a number out of the air and tell me how much they think fitness has contributed to distance for discussion.