Headphones in a match?

[antip]

Yes it is in writing, paraphrased in my earlier post. CATS = Conditions Affecting The Stroke.

[Mr. Bean]

So, let us broaden this to some extent.

If listening to background music to calm one down is a breach what about listening to background music in order to

make one angry?help one to concentrate?make one happy?make one more relaxed?make one aggressive?Any of those things may help the player score better. Is that then creating an unfair advantage?

If the Ruling Bodies actually meant that background music is allowed to be listened BUT it may not create any (unfair) advantage to the player then they have written the Rule completely wrong. Apparently they have no idea whatsoever what background music is and how it affects people, and is supposed to affect. There are numerous studies on the subject and people can be enormously affected just by choosing suitable music to be played in the background.

So, either listening to music is allowed or it is not. There is no middle ground as people listening to music always want to benefit from it, otherwise they would not do it.

[Twism86]

To everyone listening to music on the course, please use headphones so I dont have to hear it! I would rather you potentially break the rules than distract me.

[Dpavs]

I don't disagree with what you are saying in regards to either it is allowed or it is not.

I think the problem I see with the rule as written is, in part, the lack of clarity as to what "background music" is. Some are indicating that it's music you listen to while you play golf but other's may not necessarily agree. Imho if the only thing you are listening to is music which is not part of something else... then it is just "music" and not really "background music", if it's music which is part of something else.. call on hold, audio book that has background music, etc. then it is "background music".

[Mr. Bean]

'I think the problem I see with the rule as written is, in part, the lack of clarity as to what "background music" is.'

Good point. I do believe, however, that RBs have meant it more from the volume and type point of view. As that music is not supposed to reduce distractions it needs to be low on volume. I think that is what they mean by background music, not that it is some kind of music behind a commercial or a movie. After all, you are not allowed to listen to an audiobook with a volume high enough to cover the noise from the course.

[antip]

This discussion has been generated by the words of 4.3a(4) which state: Listening to audio on matters unrelated to the competition being played, such as background music, is allowed; but listening to music or other audio to eliminate distractions or to help with swing tempo is not allowed. But there is no guidance on what RBs consider "background music" to mean on the course during play and what characteristics that permitted music has that distinguishes it from the music which is not allowed. In the absence of further guidance, it is hardly surprising that folk will interpret things differently.

[clinkinfo]

On 8/4/2020 at 1:46 PM, Mr. Bean said:

'I agree with Antip that 4.3a(4) prohibits listening to music in order to calm down.'

As soon as I get that in writing from the RBs I accept. Until then I do not, the concept is just way too ambiguous to support that kind of interpretation.

What other possible purpose for a background music has than getting you in a certain mood??

 

I agree, you can’t police intent.  You can either listen or you can’t.  It’s dumb to think that the reason your listening is the deciding factor.  I listen to music often because many times I’m the only one walking in the group, so there’s a lot of gap walking up.  I’ll throw on the headphones, then take them off hit the shot, talk to everyone, and throw them back on when everyone is moving again.  Why.....I don’t know.  It kills the time I guess, and I like listening.  
 

But does that lead to another question?  Is “listening” only a problem when swinging the club?  Or is everyone trying to say it means at ANY point in the 4 hours your playing?  What’s the intent of the rule?  I genuinely would have thought the only possible issue would have been WHILE SWINGING THE CLUB.  Since that’s when a tempo signal might actually help you.

 

and I’ve seen MANY junior golfers in matches around here listening to music during the round (sorry, don’t watch many adult matches I guess).  I’ve never heard or seen of a “rules challenge” with it.

Edited August 21, 2020 by clinkinfo

[Mr. Bean]

38 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

I agree, you can’t police intent.  You can either listen or you can’t.  It’s dumb to think that the reason your listening is the deciding factor.  I listen to music often because many times I’m the only one walking in the group, so there’s a lot of gap walking up.  I’ll throw on the headphones, then take them off hit the shot, talk to everyone, and throw them back on when everyone is moving again.  Why.....I don’t know.  It kills the time I guess, and I like listening.  
 

But does that lead to another question?  Is “listening” only a problem when swinging the club?  Or is everyone trying to say it means at ANY point in the 4 hours your playing?  What’s the intent of the rule?  I genuinely would have thought the only possible issue would have been WHILE SWINGING THE CLUB.  Since that’s when a tempo signal might actually help you.

 

and I’ve seen MANY junior golfers in matches around here listening to music during the round (sorry, don’t watch many adult matches I guess).  I’ve never heard or seen of a “rules challenge” with it.

 

The intent of that Rule is not to allow a player to gain an unfair advantage. Thus listening to music is not limited to any particular moment of the round. Earlier it was not allowed to listen to music 'for a prolonged period', today that limitation has been removed.

 

So, if listening to music helps you in your play in any way it is a breach IMO. And that you can only find out by asking the player 'does your listening to music help you in your play'. If he says 'no, it does not', then you may ask him why is he listening the music if it does not help. Without more strict guidance from the RBs this is a bl**dy jungle.

[clinkinfo]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The intent of that Rule is not to allow a player to gain an unfair advantage. Thus listening to music is not limited to any particular moment of the round. Earlier it was not allowed to listen to music 'for a prolonged period', today that limitation has been removed.

 

So, if listening to music helps you in your play in any way it is a breach IMO. And that you can only find out by asking the player 'does your listening to music help you in your play'. If he says 'no, it does not', then you may ask him why is he listening the music if it does not help. Without more strict guidance from the RBs this is a bl**dy jungle.

 

But to me, that’s the exact reason why you have to side on the opposite for no penalty, because sometimes it’s unclear to the actual person why they are listening.  In all cases, listening to music is doing “something” for that player....be it a distraction, or a time killer, or sending them to a happy place.  Music is ALWAYS doing that, it’s the appeal of music in general.  So how can I give a legit answer to “is it helping me” to listen?  I have no freaking clue what it is or isn’t doing.  So in the end, you have to just enforce the written rule, which says I’m allowed To listen IMO.

 

On a more practical note, having attended many highly competitive tournaments, I’ve seen players doing the same thing.  Wearing headphones between shots as they walk.  I have no idea what their intent is or what they are listening to.  But I can say I’ve NEVER seen or heard of this rule being enforced.  I’ve never seen or heard a competition committee even inquire as to what’s playing or what a player is “using music for” (nor do I think they should to be clear).    I think the competitive “reality” is, it’s allowed by interpretation for all the ambiguity reasons we’ve pointed out.  

 

Has anyone ever heard of this penalty being called on a competitive player?

 

 

[Shilgy]

We seem to be mixing three subjects. One is music in general, then  music with headphones, and also music in competition.  Without headphones it is simple. Or should be. Turn it down to a level that no one else can or is bothered by. Most golfers , I would think, do not have an issue with you listening if they cannot hear it. With headphones to me is a bit rude and antisocial but in regular play that player would just no longer be welcome in our group. No other problem. In competition it is a different matter. It seems most golfers that play music do derive an advantage by doing so. If they did not why listen?  Simply “enjoying music” puts you in a different frame of mind , for the better, while playing.  headphones? They missed the boat on this and should have banned music from competition.

[Sawgrass]

19 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

We seem to be mixing three subjects. One is music in general, then  music with headphones, and also music in competition.  Without headphones it is simple. Or should be. Turn it down to a level that no one else can or is bothered by. Most golfers , I would think, do not have an issue with you listening if they cannot hear it. With headphones to me is a bit rude and antisocial but in regular play that player would just no longer be welcome in our group. No other problem. In competition it is a different matter. It seems most golfers that play music do derive an advantage by doing so. If they did not why listen?  Simply “enjoying music” puts you in a different frame of mind , for the better, while playing.  headphones? They missed the boat on this and should have banned music from competition.

How would you deal with a player who, while in a competition, calls his wife at work to tell her the round is running late -- and she's forced to put him on hold, and the company has "hold music" as part of their system?  Penalty for listening to music?

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

How would you deal with a player who, while in a competition, calls his wife at work to tell her the round is running late -- and she's forced to put him on hold, and the company has "hold music" as part of their system?  Penalty for listening to music?

 

I am sure that must be a very common occurrence and as such a good example. But as a referee I would ask whether he enjoyed listening to that music and I dare to say the answer would have been NO. In fact, he would not be listening to the music at all but waiting for the silence to begin. All in all, an easy ruling: no penalty.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am sure that must be a very common occurrence and as such a good example. But as a referee I would ask whether he enjoyed listening to that music and I dare to say the answer would have been NO. In fact, he would not be listening to the music at all but waiting for the silence to begin. All in all, an easy ruling: no penalty.

Of course it's an easy ruling as things stand.  I was responding to Shilgy's thought of outright "banned music from the competition."  My point is, an outright ban would be, IMO, more unfair than immediately meets the eye.

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Of course it's an easy ruling as things stand.  I was responding to Shilgy's thought of outright "banned music from the competition."  My point is, an outright ban would be, IMO, more unfair than immediately meets the eye.

 

Sawgrass, I am sure we can all think of scenarios so rare that most of the readers would have never thought of such. However, using sheer common sense combined with some understanding of the principles of the Rules I am convinced that it is easy to separate voluntary and involuntary acts from each other.

 

So, why don't we stick to the voluntary acts, shall we..?

 

And please, do not start by claiming that listening to the queuing music is a voluntary act from the player as it is not.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sawgrass, I am sure we can all think of scenarios so rare that most of the readers would have never thought of such. However, using sheer common sense combined with some understanding of the principles of the Rules I am convinced that it is easy to separate voluntary and involuntary acts from each other.

 

So, why don't we stick to the voluntary acts, shall we..?

 

And please, do not start by claiming that listening to the queuing music is a voluntary act from the player as it is not.

Why do you fail to grasp that the person I was intending to speak to was promoting a change in the rules?  A change which would obviate intentional vs. deliberate acts?  

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Why do you fail to grasp that the person I was intending to speak to was promoting a change in the rules?  A change which would obviate intentional vs. deliberate acts?  

 

 

Why do you say so?

[clinkinfo]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am sure that must be a very common occurrence and as such a good example. But as a referee I would ask whether he enjoyed listening to that music and I dare to say the answer would have been NO. In fact, he would not be listening to the music 

 

sorry, I didn’t mean to quote you, but the iPad won’t let me delete it at the moment for some reason.

 

we are FULLY hypothetical at the moment.

 

ive watch many many players listening to headphones in a match,  I have NEVER heard of someone confronting them, asking them what they are listening too or why, and frankly I doubt they would answer such a silly question if you did ask like why they listen!

 

has ANYONE ever heard of the this rule being enforced?
 

 If not, this is a completely hypothetical discussion, and it’s allowed period ( and needs a re-write if that’s not what intended).  Because again, just because you ask what I’m listening to or why, I DON’T believe I have any obligation to answer, especially in a match.

 

no one’s opinion on headphones is relevant, and frankly, there’s a laundry list of things I find more offensive than headphones on the course.  We can start with those 100db speakers.....  But where there are lots Of people, there are lots of issues and opinions I suppose.  

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

 

sorry, I didn’t mean to quote you, but the iPad won’t let me delete it at the moment for some reason.

 

we are FULLY hypothetical at the moment.

 

ive watch many many players listening to headphones in a match,  I have NEVER heard of someone confronting them, asking them what they are listening too or why, and frankly I doubt they would answer such a silly question if you did ask like why they listen!

 

 

If I posed that question to them as a referee I can guarantee you that they would answer ?

 

FWIW, I have never seen anyone play with earphones on. Tremendous difference in golf culture that as well.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[Mudguard]

On 8/25/2020 at 11:35 AM, clinkinfo said:

has ANYONE ever heard of the this rule being enforced?
 

 If not, this is a completely hypothetical discussion, and it’s allowed period ( and needs a re-write if that’s not what intended).  Because again, just because you ask what I’m listening to or why, I DON’T believe I have any obligation to answer, especially in a match.

 

 

I've seen it enforced, or rather players reminded warming up on the range with them on that they couldn't use them once play began. But this was years back, when iPods first came out. I'd bring it up if my opponent tried it. 

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

I've seen it enforced, or rather players reminded warming up on the range with them on that they couldn't use them once play began. But this was years back, when iPods first came out. I'd bring it up if my opponent tried it. 

 

Rule was different then and was somewhat changed in 2019.

 

Btw, how would you justify your request to your opponent not to listen to music while playing?

Edited August 26, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

On 8/4/2020 at 1:46 PM, Mr. Bean said:

'I agree with Antip that 4.3a(4) prohibits listening to music in order to calm down.'

As soon as I get that in writing from the RBs I accept. Until then I do not, the concept is just way too ambiguous to support that kind of interpretation.

What other possible purpose for a background music has than getting you in a certain mood??

 

Did you ever write them about that ?

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Did you ever write them about that ?

 

No, but I have received a view that suggests that. Still very much in doubt about the entire Rule.

[Mudguard]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Rule was different then and was somewhat changed in 2019.

 

Btw, how would you justify your request to your opponent not to listen to music while playing?

I would ask them why they are using headphones

[Mr. Bean]

40 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

I would ask them why they are using headphones

 

And if they say they like to listen to music, then what?

[Mudguard]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And if they say they like to listen to music, then what?

Well that's just it, I can't do anything. If they say it helps me focus etc, then it's a different issue. But how are you going to know unless you ask? But again, like everything in life, if someone pushes close to the rules, they get watched more closely, conceded putts get shorter and shorter. 

[Sawgrass]

40 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And if they say they like to listen to music, then what?

“Does it help you play?”

[Mr. Bean]

36 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

“Does it help you play?”

 

'I don't know, I always listen to music when I play.'

[Sawgrass]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

'I don't know, I always listen to music when I play.'

“Have a fine day.”

[Shilgy]

17 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

“Have a fine day.”

Unfortunately that is correct. Maybe this old dinosaur should move to ...Finland I recall? That’s where Mr Bean resides? He seems to never see this behavior on the course. 

We do have an out with the speaker crowd though, correct? Was it Rule 1.2 about distracting other players? I never see headphones at my home club but unfortunately I do see, or rather hear, the speakers too often.

[Shilgy]

On 8/24/2020 at 11:39 AM, Sawgrass said:

How would you deal with a player who, while in a competition, calls his wife at work to tell her the round is running late -- and she's forced to put him on hold, and the company has "hold music" as part of their system?  Penalty for listening to music?

This has been answered admirably by others but my answer would be....if they are trying to skirt a music ban by making a phone call and ASKING to be put on hold to hear Barry Manilow type music they deserve to be penalized.