Calling all Lead Tape Experts

[ClipitStickit]

what is the maximum amount of lead tape one should put underneath the grip (for lighter swing weight purposes) without destroying the feel of the shaft ?

currently have nippon modus 105s p760’s and grew accustomed to light swing weight (c9) after playing sticks half inch short of standard. I got them lengthened after realizing how hunched over back was by 1.25”. And as one would guess, it messed with the swing weight and consequently, my feel, and I am hoping to get the swing weight back down.

ideally I would like to get them back down to c9 but understand that may not be plausible with the new length of the club (.75+) and new swing weight (d6.5). Taking length back off is not in the realm of possibility either , as my comfort level and back feel much better, upright, @ 6’4.

to get the sticks back to c9 sw, I would need to add 37.5g of lead tape to butt end of club. But I also understand that may completely destroy the feel of the club with new static weight.

my question is, what is the maximum amount of weight I can add to butt end of club with lead tape before I really start to destroy the feel of the shaft ? (Thinking a happy medium of 22.5g for d2 sw may be ok?)

also , how does one apply lead tape after stripping grip? Hamburger style 360deg around shaft / or length wise strips the same way tape goes ?

is there an easier way to get lighter swing weight with extended sticks ?

 

[DArnie]

You might try one of these to see how it feels and go from there.

Tour Lock Pro Counter Plugs | The GolfWorks

The Tour Lock Pro Counter Plugs are an incredibly efficient way for golf club makers to counter balance putters, irons and woods. The reusable weights will fit all steel and most graphite shafts and held in place by the expandable bladder. There is not need to epoxy the weights into place making them reusable. The very thin shaft cap does not require adjustments to the finished length of the golf club. The Tour Lock Pro Counter Plugs are available in 8, 12, 16, 20, 25, 30, 50 and 80 gram weight options.

[Thinnedit]

Heavier grips will help lower swingweight

[ClipitStickit]

Thanks brother, these look more precise than the measuring / weighing of lead tape. I wonder if they can be added to shafts that have already been extended with plugs .. ?

[Stuart_G]

Adding weight to the butt does NOT really lower the swing weight or decrease the effort required to swing the club (MOI). That's not really how the swing weight concept works. You can't alwasy believe what the swing weight scale tells you. The swing weight concept was never intended to account for butt weight changes.

Now adding counter balance will change the feel of the club - whither it's will be a change for the better or a change for the worse is impossible to predict. Anything is possible when it comes to feel, but if the clubs already feel too heavy, chances are adding more weight probably wont help.

Not sure I'd call it easy but the BETTER way to fix the swing weight with the longer playing length would be to pull the heads and check for and remove any tip weights. If there are no tip weights, I believe sometimes TM uses bullet weights in base of the hosel. From what I read they are more of a PITA to remove than standard tip weights but they do come out. After you get the heads as light as possible, if it's not enough, then you'll probably want to consider using length to get a progressinve swing weight set. Heavy swing weight is usually much more of a problem with the longer irons than it is the shorter ones. So you'll likely be able to keep the longer length in the shortest clubs (PW) then use shorter length increment of 3/8" instead of 1/2" for the rest of the set.

Again. No they wont.

Depends on what type of extension was used. The shorter ones might still work with steel extensions. But for graphite extensions, some might be too narrow. However, if you really are intent on trying counterbalancing, Golfworks.com also has lead butt plugs that likely could be shaved to size if they are too big. Lead Counterweights for Steel Shafts

[ClipitStickit]

Stu !! Thanks for your input , brother. You bring up a good point regarding the swing weight scale not being designed for butt weight changes. Although , I feel a sense of solace that I can still potentially save the feel of these sticks with them being lengthened , with the 5g to butt end of club equalling -1 sw point theory.

I understand I am undertaking a risk with counterbalancing these shafts , but I got a taste of 125ft apexes when I am flowing and I am willing to take the risk of the counterbalancing to possibly get that feel / height back. My modus 105s’ feel flimsy at times and I feel like the counterbalancing could help make them feel a wee bit more stout. I also am somewhat of a handle dragger , body rotator to a fault , and I feel like this counterbalance will help me snap the club through the impact zone better. I guess time will tell.. Just trying to stay optimistic lol.

Stu, you’re a genius !! ,because of problematic heavy swing weight in the longer irons , I play a progressive length set in my irons currently , I play my 4i a half inch short of standard , standard length 5i , +.25 6i, +.5 7i , +.75 8i, +.75 9i, +.75pw , and my 50, 54, 62 @36.5“.

I am hoping the shaft extensions already placed in there will allow space for the tour lock counter weights , as they seem more precise than the constant weighing of lead tape ..

[Stuart_G]

It's not a big risk, if it doesn't work , they are easy to remove. At worst maybe just the cost of the grip - unless you blow on your grips then not even that. And if it does help, it really has nothing to so with that aspect of the theory. And you can't really use that formula to determine how much weight to use. I'd get a few different weight amounts because only some trial and error will get you the answer you're looking for.

I'd also suggest you try it first with a single club first before you do the whole set.

Butt weight will have zero effect on the stiffness of the shaft. If it does end up feeling stiffer, then it's likely because the swing changed - slower transition or even slower club speed, or possibly even an increase in grip pressure from the heavier weight can "mute" the stiffness feel. But those are just a few of many possibilities.

Now pulling the heads and reducing the head weight is something will make the shafts play a little stiffer. How much or how noticeable the change in stiffness will be is hard to say and depends on how much weight can be removed. But probably the equivalent of hard stepping 1-2 times.

[ClipitStickit]

that’s a fair point not trusting that 5g = -1sw equation , I am just going to use it as a general guideline and tinker. Because as you say, it is all trial and error. I just hit up my buddy who did the shaft extensions, to see if those weights will work with them.. fingers crossed. Although, I feel like lead tape with a scale won’t be an awful alternative.

that’s a really good point , trying it out on one club first. Going to give the counterbalancing a go on one of my old dci’s and see if it improves the feel.

and Stu , my swing never changes and is always so consistent ; it is always the equipments fault !! lol. Really hoping this process helps make the club head feel lighter. If not I may just melt these frankenSticks down and sell the tungsten / steel !!

I just wish there was a way for us taller folk to get lighter club heads with the extended length we usually need.. or maybe I just need to hit the weights lol.

pulling the heads is my last resort, but I may take that route if the counterbalancing is not to my liking, thanks for the knowledge on that. I had no idea TM used tip / bullet weights in the head... now that I think of it, pulling the heads may be a better route than all of this counterbalancing ...

[Stuart_G]

The best way to get longer clubs with reasonable head weights is to order them from the factory at the longer lengths. Not all, but many oem's have light weight version of the heads that they will use in the longer length builds. Simply getting a standard length set and extending them rarely works out very well. Going the other way can work, I bought a set of TM RSi 2's second hand that were +1" in length and the head weights were about 10 gm lighter than normal. But it's much easier to add the missing weight than it is to remove it.

The main reason that pulling the heads might help is if they started out under standard length by a 1/2", then it's likely that some weight was added to the standard weight heads which normally isn't too hard to remove, so you might get some help - maybe about 6 gm or so could have been added. Although maybe not enough to completely compensate for a +1" over standard set, it still might help some.

[ClipitStickit]

That’s what’s up !! Hopefully I don’t have to go the “fresh set of irons” route lol.

was talking to my buddy who extended my sticks and he informed me of SwitchGrips , with adjustable weights at the top end of the grips ... annnnnd I just scooped up 20 adjustable weight mid-sizers, to throw in my gamer’s / back up wedges and speed sticks for consistent feel. Also scooped a rib kit from golfworks, if a ribbed grip helped hogan , I’m sure it won’t hurt my game :)

I was looking to get heavier shafts anyway , and I believe this is the solution I have needed. Thanks for your help , I truly can not wait to get these puppers in my hands and start to let the club do the talking !!

[Valtiel]

Stuart nailed all your best options there, follow that advice.

Just be aware that there are zero combinations of heavier grip/counterweight/lead tape on the handle that will "recapture" what your clubs felt like before the length extension. That does not mean the results will be "bad", but you will be firmly leaving the realm of relevancy when it comes to swing weight and you'll need to go it alone with your own feel since you are now adding weight to make a club feel lighter, an inherent contradiction that only manipulates balance point, which is very different than actual weight subtraction.

The only true answer is lighter head weight as Stuart mentioned, but that is a pain, also because of what Stuart mentioned. Best of luck in your experiments!

[ClipitStickit]

That’s a really good point regarding trying to “recapture” the old feel. I need to leave that idea in the past and work with what I have now.

i may go the “adjusting head weight route” down the line, but I am fairly confident this will do the trick. I also like the idea of a heavier head for energy transfer purposes , just hoping I can still manipulate the club head through the impact zone how I need to fit the shot requirements, which is the issue now.

thank you for the input and kind wishes !! Going to grind away with this set and make it work !

[Valtiel]

Yup, thats the right attitude. Best of luck, and make sure to post some follow ups as you tinker!

[ClipitStickit]

no doubt brother !! Thank you , and will do.

my question now is — do I go with the standard size, 45g grips (with 20g in butt end of club) / or 75g midsize grips (with less weight butt end of club) ?

I have a tendency to be a handle dragger through the impact zone and don’t snap the club head .. thinking the standard size with more weight in BOC may be better. I really wish golf galaxy sold these counter weighted grips , so I could try before I buy ..

[Jagpilotohio]

Ignore me if you like, but adding weight to the butt end of the club and making the entire club heavier to reduce the feel of the weight of the Head Will not do what you want it to do. If it does, it’s a placebo effect, because it can not in reality accomplish what you want...and It will DEFINITELY not make the shafts feel “stouter”.

if you truly want To try and recapture the feeling before lengthening, get out a drill, or a grinder, or a belt sander, and strategically take some weight off the heads. Losing a few grams of mass will not hurt their performance if you remove in the proper places. As already pointed out, Some companies make slightly lighter heads at the factory for overlength builds and they function just fine.

.....of course altering them Yourself immediately makes the clubs worthless for resale so you definitely have to be dedicated to the idea. Good luck on your experiment.

[ClipitStickit]

I literally just found a 13g mini flat head adjuster / tool for an old barometer and put it in the back end of each one of my clubs ... and immediately got my old ball flight back that I had with the shortened sticks (c9 swingweight). I am 6’4 and these levers NEED weight baby !!

Going to go with midsize grips (75g) and get some light weights to have for tinkering in BOC. I also lead the downswing with my grip (feel wise) and often swing crowbars to engrain positions / muscle memory. I have found the feel I need and now it’s time to dial it. The new swingweights , with new SwitchGrip grips are going to be right around that c9 range , for my progressive length set. Thank goodness for family , golf buddies , and GolfWRX !! Happy fourth !

[ClipitStickit]

this is it player !! Switching over midsize grips that are 23g’s heavier with some interchangeable weights in butt end of grip, so I can really get kooky !! Lol

[cardoustie]

I only make heads heavier w tape, came in hot and left disappointed

[Jagpilotohio]

LOL!! Hey buddy

yep. me too. The entire concept of lead tape under the grip or at the bottom of the grip to “trick” the swingweight scale is silly, but you know what, if it works for someone, cool beans. I’ve been around here long enough to know that logic and science don’t often matter.....hey....that sounds like some other stuff that’s going on right now. LololololoL.

[ClipitStickit]

Lolol, it may not makes sense from a scientific / logic perspective... But feel wise , I LOVE it !! Lol. I believe it helps that I only have 105g shafts and probably need 120-130g shafts as well, so the extra grip weight feels heavy / good and has already helped me get more shallow , with more snap saved, for the final rotational move through the ball.

Are you familiar with the golden bear and his infamous counterweighted driver / 3wood that he used religiously / competitively for 15+ and 30+ years , respectively ?

how about mr.57 himself , or the big easy ? Both infamous counterbalancers. How else does Louis achieve that c7 sw in his irons ? i have heard some rumors about the hawk as well, but I think he kept that info close to the vest ..

[mylesb21]

I was able to remove the weight plug from the PW and 9i in the P760 irons. It took a good amount of heat and patience, but they come out. I heated the hosel with a propane torch for about 2 mins, then tapped the hosel pretty hard on a wood block (to protect the head) and they come right out. The weight plugs weighed about 10-12 grams each btw.

[ClipitStickit]

This is really good information to have , how did removing those two weights from your 9 and PW effect your ballflight and “feel” of the club ? aside from the -5 sw adjustment .. what type of shafts do you play in the 760s ? And what were you hoping to achieve ballflight wise ?

[Valtiel]

The really interesting thing that you mention the two South Africans...

Counterweights in my experience can often be used to quiet the hands. The more weight you put under the hands, the harder it is to manipulate the club head with the smaller muscles. I've tried this to the extreme before with a 150g counter weight in a 3-wood and it is ridiculous how hard it is to do anything "hands-y" in your swing. This is interesting because both Els and Oosthuizen have slight early extension moves and more hands-y, wrist-y releases. This is not a comment saying that i know better than them or anything btw, just an objective characteristic of their natural, smooth swings.

[BenHoganSlam1953]

My original post appears to have been deleted so I don't have to correct it. Myself, I went to mid-sized grips so that I could then add more lead tape to the heads to increase my static weight. I might reverse that next year.

I've used both the tour locks and lead plugs for the butt of the club. I like that I can move the tour locks down the shaft to finese the feel.

 

[ClipitStickit]

that is a very good point , those two players have extremely fluid , “effortless” swings , with incredible tempo.

with the heavier seingweight’s in my irons (D6.5) after the lengthening, I felt like I really had to manipulate the club head with my hands in order to to get the shaft to pop thru the impact zone , so hearing its hard to get “handsy” is great news !!

also from what I understand , the extra weight in the handle helps shift the balance point of the shaft upwards and creates a more stable tip section. Lower rate of closure through impact zone / more consistent ballflight / tighter dispersion, at least for me

[ClipitStickit]

if you enjoy messing around with counterbalance weights , I would recommend what was recommended to me, SwitchGrips USA. They have adjustable weight options and nice, heavy midsize+ grips coming in @75g with a stock 2g weight in BOC , that one can adjust with 8g, 14g, and 20g options.

My mission was to get my effective swingWeight back around c9 and D0 with some playability / adjustability for minor tinkering, and I will accomplish that. After this , I am done messing with the sticks for the decade and grinding the game to get a good feel

[Stuart_G]

@ClipitStickit said also from what I understand , the extra weight in the handle helps shift the balance point of the shaft upwards and creates a more stable tip section. Lower rate of closure through impact zone / more consistent ballflight / tighter dispersion, at least for me
"Stable" can mean a lot of different things to different people - but it is most commonly used in the context of the stiffness of the tip section. And moving the c.g. closer to the grip by adding butt weight will have zero effect on the tip stiffness. Now if you moved the c.g. by removing weight from the head, that would be different. The only weight change that has any effect on tip stiffness are head weight changes, nothing else.
Now as far as how counter balancing might effect the swing itself, that's something that hasn't really been studied very much (at least as far as I could find in various searches). The few attempts to look at it for the full swing, came away very inconclusive. It can help some people and it can hurt some people, and there was little correlation found to help predict who would be helped or why.

[Howard_Jones]

For full swing clubs, Counterweight ONLY works if we keep the same TOTAL wgt, so adding weight grip side want solve a head weight issue, and Total weight has always been more important than SW, and that means we will fail.

Many have the idea that CW balanced shafts is "butt heavy", but thats half the story, they are TIP LIGHT, and thats the side of the shaft that can take down feel of head weight, so CW balanced shafts is a shaft where weight remains the same, and some mass is moved from the tip side to the butt side. IF we only add weight butt side, the tip side where the issue is (head and shaft combined), remains the same, so we mostly add Total weight when we add weight grip side, and a club that feels heavy as it is, will feel even worse.

Hosel drilling is what should be done when heads is too heavy. On most iron models we can reduce head weight up to 10 grams this way, so when the real issue is head weight, adjust head weight and leave other parameters as they are.

"Safe drilling dept" vary with head design, (where does the hosel change shape from Cylinder to D shape, or where it curved due to offset), so study the hosel from all sides and compare it to BBGM to know how deep you can go with the largest drill bit. ALL sizes here keeps insert and BBGM as standard since its smaller than shaft OD or tip size if you like. Drilling should be done in steps, starting with 1/8" then move up to a wider drill bit. We "should" use a drill press and hosel fixture, but if its only a few grams, and drilling dept is below 4/8", most can do it free handed without messing it up.

[ClipitStickit]

Stu , I am taking notes !! From a 5 senses perspective , the club head just feels more consistent through the impact zone and the overall stick feels like it has more “pop” with the extra weight in the grip end. I have a tendency to “get stuck” with club head never really releasing, and the counterbalance helps me get through the golf ball. Kindof feels like a heavier version of the cut down sticks I had , I really enjoy using this sw scale to quantify feel of the club head , no matter how frowned upon it may be.

as stated above I have a tendency to spin out early , but with the extra weight in the grip end , it gives my left shoulder a better stretch and snap when initiating the downswing with my lower body action. Thanks for putting me on game !! I have a lot of respect, love, and admiration for club builders, you sir, are a good man.

I know it’s counterintuitive to science, but the extra weight in the BOC has certainly made the club “feel” lighter to me. I believe this is because I am in need of ~125g shafts , and the extra static weight In the club has given me more stretch and snap in the left shoulder , and has allowed me to lay the club down more on plane, and shallow out my attack angle

this is great information, I do not believe I will go that route, but for those who wish to , would you recommend yanking the tip weights out before hosel drilling ?

[Howard_Jones]

Sure. if there is tip or bullet weights, they would be the first to be removed, weight is weight no matter where it comes from. My suggestion of hosel drilling is what we do on heads that dont have weights we can remove, or when removing them want get us all the way to our target.