Is Legacy the Problem with Golf?

[marmaduk]

Don’t forget Bryson was #1 strokes gained putting when he won as well.

[mahonie]

Made up for his so-so approach game?

[mahonie]

If the drives were accurate I wouldn’t have so much of a problem. Fact is they don’t need to be because the fairways are so wide.

[jholz]

As I have mentioned in these debates before, I would love to see the major tours do something to narrow and soften fairways, and make anything outside the fairway (or even on the wrong side of the fairway) more penal. When I lived in the south, I played so many courses where an errant drive was an absolute death sentence because of the jungle lining the fairways. I would love to see the pros face hazards like that more of the time. That, I think, would help address the distance issue in a way that is within the spirit of the game (or sport?) of golf - i.e. the return of control and strategy.

 

At least today, I think there are only a handful of tournaments on the schedule that really require this kind of play.

 

But hey, that's me...

[johnseg]

Donald Ross Society - Return to Old School DesignThis article goes the other way. It states that the real beauty and skill of the game is in determining the angles to attack which requires open layouts.

 

There are so many ways to approach golf that we all feel like our way is the correct way. Long bomber or short knocker it doesn't really matter. The games always seems to come down to the last 1 or 2 strokes taken on every hole.

[jholz]

Oh yeah. I'm totally for that as well. I wasn't trying to suggest that there was just one way to achieve my stated goal. That's obviously one of the beautiful things about golf an course design.

 

This looks very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[mahonie]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

However, don’t mistake thinning out the trees for creating wide open fairways. My home course removed 15,000 trees a few years back and to be honest not many people noticed. The fairway widths were still constrained by the tree line and if you were offline you were still in trouble. The major benefit was that the thinner canopies around greens and tees improved the quality of turf because the amount of light getting into the right places was improved.

Hitting the ball into the right place off the tee should be one of the top skills in golf. The good course architects make you play the hole the way they want you to play it. The great architects give you the right balance of risk vs reward on every shot. I don’t see that many holes on the PGA Tour where risk vs reward is balanced...everything is skewed in favour of the bomber.

[Nels55]

Any pro golfer knows the advantage of hitting it far the problem is that no one believed it possible to hit it straight enough. Look at long drive competitions the majority of shots are not playable and a lot of them are way off line. Bryson figured out how to hit it straight enough. Whether or not others will be able to do the same remains to be seen.

[smashdn]

Yes and yes. If he would have hit a wedge decent he would have won by more and probably had even better SG-putting numbers too.

[smashdn]

I posted a link here over to GCA where Tom Doak was commenting on his experience collaborating with Brooks Koepka on some courses. The long and short of it was a PGA Tour pro does not worry themselves with angles. The conditions (several in concert) and the equipment makes it so they don't have to worry about angles unless they are just blocked out by a tree. For you and I carrying a bunker is a big deal or hitting to an area of the fairway that allows us to see the putting surface is advantageous. A pro guy just gets his distances and hits the shot. It's actually pretty impressive how the architectural tricks don't bother them. I have an opinion regarding yardage books and caddies but that's another can of worms to just leave the lid on.

 

I was reading Spirit of St. Andrews last night. I am into the part where MacKenzie is breaking down courses and great holes. He is talking about how certain golfers of some renown (in his day) would play The Road Hole or 11, etc. He went into a fair amount of detail describing these minute valleys that Bobby Jones and others would place their drives in front of to be able to use them to hit a run up shot an access pin positions behind bunkers. Even going so far as to play beyond the hole on his second shot to a par four to set up running chip to get close and ensure a four. Who is going to intentionally play away from a hole to set up a par putt now?

^That is what wide fairways should get you. They should open up areas of strategic interest and open up angles to attack the green how you see fit and what fits your game and skillset. American style course have really done a poor job at this. We (I'm 'Merican) kind of misconstrued width and just made some fairways wide and then stepped back and said, "Well, we made them wide, now they are too easy." We left out the part where you need a compelling reason to play to some spot in the fairway with that width.

Last Bobby Jones anecdote from Spirit of St. Andrews, Mac apparently followed him either at the British Amateur or Open and took note that in the course of four rounds on one the holes (memory escapes me) that you could "lay a tablecloth" over his drives. That is the kind of accuracy and placing of your drives that is awe inspiring. Probably hyperbole to an extent but what would happen should the PGA Tour decide to go to courses and set ups like that?

[Soloman1]

Okay, so let's put the shoe on the other foot.

Let's remove all limits on technology and let top players hit it as far as they want. Let's not roll back, let's roll up and see 450 yard or more drives. Why not? Fans love it, right?

[mahonie]

The operative phrase is ‘straight enough.’ It appears that straight enough on the PGA Tour is not necessarily that straight.

[jimbonecrusher]

What about really making it interesting. Get rid of all of the fantastic agronomy techniques and equipment. Bring back the sheep, hickory shafts, and gutta percha for all. Technology bad!!!! Legacy good.

 

In fact, while we are at it we should get rid of LED light bulbs, computers, the internet, fast food joints, highways, fuel injection, and penicillin.

[Soloman1]

And don't forget the Internet - the scourge of the modern world.

[marmaduk]

Would anybody be interested in watching golf if restraints were as follows: Keep modern equipment and its current restraints from progressing but remove all aid from actual gameplay. What does this mean?

A caddie is just someone to carry the clubs. They are not allowed to help. No yardage books and no yardage markers (Some form of time constraint to prevent things from actually getting out of hand and pacing off a 200 yard shot). You can plot out the course in practice rounds but you have to memorize the numbers for gameplay. Essentially eyeballing distances is required. Half set or 9 clubs max. requiring fitness and not stock yardages.

[gvogel]

While we're at it, let's allow bowling balls to get a lot bigger (the better to knock down more pins), Nascar engines of unlimited horsepower (the fans really like to see the crashes), and titanium bats in baseball (chicks dig the home run).

Right, I really don't like conflating items that make life better for a worldwide population, and a game of skill.

[mahonie]

It’s the way courses should be set up to make them enjoyable to play and also to watch.

See if you can find a copy of Peter Dobereiner’s book: The Glorious World of Golf’ and read Chapter 5 - Secrets of the Great Courses. Okay, it dates from 1973 but it has some great insights as to what makes a great course that still ring true today. The rest of the book is pretty special too.

[smashdn]

That was where I was sort of going with my can of worms. Put more on the golfer and make pro golf less of a team event.

 

I've typed this here before but we should all take a look at golf and really think hard on what is a part of golf, or a golfing skill to be tested, and what is not. Is yardage estimation a golfing skill? Is green reading a yardage skill? Is picking a club a golfing skill? Is picking a spot to hit the ball to a golfing skill?

Then from that decide, at this competition do I want to test this group of golfers' ability to estimate distance or do I allow yardage books and/or rangefinders? Do I want to test a golfer's ability to read the green just as he walks up to it or do I allow the greens books and notes?

 

There isn't a right or wrong answer really, it is just a preference of what you want to do.

So if you are talking about "legacy" (and I think this discussion has tracked away from what I thought legacy was and gotten more into history. History and Legacy are different things as I see them in the golfing context. So I guess this is history...) do you want to go back to a time without rangefinders, yardage books and caddies who were essentially pack mules for hire? In the history of golf there was much less shared responsibility with the caddie. Me personally, I could live with them drawing for caddies at the beginning of each round and keeping more of the core golf decision making with the golfer.

I don't think the number of clubs really matters much.

[jimbonecrusher]

You probably aren't looking for real answers to your questions, but lets give this a shot.

Bowling: The ball size is all about ratio. The lanes are designed for the size ball that is the standard. Also, the PBA makes the game more difficult by altering oiling patterns. The bowling ball manufacturers can change the design of weight blocks and surface compounds, but the PBA will still be able to change the difficulty with the oil pattern. Also, the amount of oil used today versus back in the 70s is astonishing. Back in the 70s only a few ounces of oil was laid on the lanes, now there are over 20 ounces of oil laid on the lanes. This is all because of the surface material of the balls.

NASCAR: This is a safety concern. Every since Awesome Bill from Dawsonville (aka Bill Elliott) set the speed record at Talladega at 212mph, NASCAR was smart to limit the speeds for the safety of the driver and the fan. Could you imagine a car going into the wall in turn 3 of Daytona at anything over 200mph? Pure catastrophe.

Baseball: Again, it is a safety concern. The ball exits the wood bats at over 100mph. With a titanium bat it could possibly be nearer to 140mph. Try playing third base in a softball league (60' base path) with the current carbon bats. These amateurs can still get the ball to exit at close to 100mph. People have died from getting hit by that ball. If a MLB player hit a pitcher with a ball off of a titanium bat or even the first or third baseman, they could die.

Nobody is dying at a tournament from a ball. There is no need to "roll-back" the ball. Simply make it more of a premium to hit the fairway. The same complaining about the ball also probably wear socks with sandals and complain about loud muscle cars and music.

[smashdn]

RE: Baseball

They also over the years have raised and lowered the mound to effect the competitive balance between hitting and pitching. Also altered the ball a time or two.

[Jwin323]

Lanny Wadkins won at Riviera in 1985 at -20 using persimmon/balata/blades. No one has shot within 3 strokes of that since. But the same is SO much easier and the classic old courses can’t measure up anymore.Bu!!$h!t.