Ball Played From Deep Rough And Two Balls Come Out

[EmperorPenguin]

This just happened on the course today.  My buddy's approach shot landed in some deep rough.  He plays it out, but to our surprise two balls came out.   None of us saw the second ball near the original, so the second was deep in the rough next to the original.  Is he subject to the wrong-ball rule since he hit it?

[Newby]

No. The player did not make a stroke with the intention of hitting the other ball.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Newby

[davep043]

As you phrase it, he was playing his own ball, as he is required to do.  Even if he had known another ball was there, would he have been REQUIRED to remove it before playing his own shot?  As I see it, the other ball is simple a loose impediment.  While the player is allowed to remove the "other ball", the player would be penalized if his own ball moves (when not on the putting green).  So he made a stroke at his own ball, and the loose impediment was moved too.

[sui generis]

Actually an obstruction, Dave. Movable? Perhaps, but if the player is unaware of its existence, then that's moot.

[Schulzmc]

What if, in a two man best ball competition, it was discovered that the second ball was actually his partner's ball?

[LeoLeo99]

14 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

What if, in a two man best ball competition, it was discovered that the second ball was actually his partner's ball?

 

What if, the player lost his ball in the same spot the day before and both balls he hit were his and marked identically and indistinguishable?

[Schulzmc]

5 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

What if, the player lost his ball in the same spot the day before and both balls he hit were his and marked identically and indistinguishable?

No - this actually happened in our Member/Member this past weekend. Player A could see his ball in the heavy "eyebrow" rough above a bunker. Player B's (his partner) ball (thought to have cleared the bunker) was hidden from view near his. While Player B began to look for his ball in the rough past the bunker Player A took his shot and both balls, his and his now revealed partner's ball, came flying out.

 

(EDIT: They called the pro shop and were told to replace Player B's ball with no penalty and play on.)

Edited September 14, 2020 by Schulzmc

[LeoLeo99]

9 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

No - this actually happened in our Member/Member this past weekend. Player A could see his ball in the heavy "eyebrow" rough above a bunker. Player B's (his partner) ball (thought to have cleared the bunker) was hidden from view near his. While Player B began to look for his ball in the rough past the bunker Player A took his shot and both balls, his and his now revealed partner's ball, came flying out.

 

(EDIT: They called the pro shop and were told to replace Player B's ball with no penalty and play on.)

 

That's what I would say would be equitable.  

[Kossuvissy]

But does not Rule 23.5 come into play:

 

b. Partner Is Responsible for Player’s Actions

Any action taken by the player concerning the partner’s ball or equipment is treated as having been taken by the partner.

If the player’s action would breach a Rule if taken by the partner:

The partner is in breach of the Rule and gets the resulting penalty (see Rule 23.8a).

 

• Examples of this are when the player breaches the Rules by:

 

Ø Improving the conditions affecting the stroke to be made by the partner,

 

Ø Accidentally causing the partner’s ball to move, or

 

Didn't the player move his partner's ball by accident?

Edited September 14, 2020 by Kossuvissy

[LeoLeo99]

28 minutes ago, Kossuvissy said:

But does not Rule 23.5 come into play:

 

b. Partner Is Responsible for Player’s Actions

Any action taken by the player concerning the partner’s ball or equipment is treated as having been taken by the partner.

If the player’s action would breach a Rule if taken by the partner:

The partner is in breach of the Rule and gets the resulting penalty (see Rule 23.8a).

 

• Examples of this are when the player breaches the Rules by:

 

Ø Improving the conditions affecting the stroke to be made by the partner,

 

Ø Accidentally causing the partner’s ball to move, or

 

Didn't the player move his partner's ball by accident?

 

It was during a stroke so I'm thinking you'd treat it the same as if he hit his partner's ball with his ball.  I mean, if you hit your ball and it hits your partner's ball, it's not a penalty.  (unless both on green)

[antip]

3 hours ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

It was during a stroke so I'm thinking you'd treat it the same as if he hit his partner's ball with his ball.  I mean, if you hit your ball and it hits your partner's ball, it's not a penalty.  (unless both on green)

I agree no penalty. The player was doing precisely what the rules require, making a stroke at the ball in play unaware the partner's ball was hidden underneath. That is not the circumstance 23.5 targets although there is a superficial fit to part of the words of that rule. Weird stuff happens on the course and IMO this is not directly covered by the rules. And if that hidden ball is not treated as a wrong ball (which it is not), I don't think it makes sense to penalise if it turns out to be a partner's ball.

An interesting and RB worthy question though.

[antip]

4 hours ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

What if, the player lost his ball in the same spot the day before and both balls he hit were his and marked identically and indistinguishable?

Then that player should be getting rapidly to safety from the inevitable lightning heading his way.

[Schulzmc]

Interestingly, the pro asked if he felt like he had hit both balls with the club or if it was possible that one ball hit the other propelling it out of the rough. He said it did not feel like a double hit, but honestly was so shocked he was unsure what had happened. Since his ball was the one partially visible it is clear he was making a stroke at the correct ball.

 

By the way - they lost the hole anyway. So the whole thing became an interesting discussion over a couple beers after the event.

[EmperorPenguin]

Here is a situation that would make the original scenario even more perplexing: suppose the player played a Titleist 1 without marks, and after the shot two balls come out and the second ball is also a Titleist 1 and both balls are identical (e.g., they are both new and without marks).  What would be the ruling then?

[antip]

Call me when it happens.

 

But nothing changes, unless you want to tilt the infinitesimally small probability even smaller by suggesting the player and no one else around now knows which ball is which or the ball from the tee managed to hide under the other ball already lying there. At that point, I go and see if there is anything interesting on other rules blog sites.

[Mr. Bean]

18 hours ago, antip said:

I agree no penalty. The player was doing precisely what the rules require, making a stroke at the ball in play unaware the partner's ball was hidden underneath. That is not the circumstance 23.5 targets although there is a superficial fit to part of the words of that rule. Weird stuff happens on the course and IMO this is not directly covered by the rules. And if that hidden ball is not treated as a wrong ball (which it is not), I don't think it makes sense to penalise if it turns out to be a partner's ball.

An interesting and RB worthy question though.

 

I agree that RBs should take a stand on this as the ruling is far from clear. After all, Rules do not separate means how a ball is being moved accidentally. A player may accidentally move his partner's ball by stepping on it without knowing that ball's whereabouts. One may ask how does that differ from the case at hand and for a very good reason. In both cases the player should be more careful and equally in both cases it might not be reasonable to require the player to examine the surroundings to the extent to make sure there are no balls to be stepped on/hit upon.

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Here is a situation that would make the original scenario even more perplexing: suppose the player played a Titleist 1 without marks, and after the shot two balls come out and the second ball is also a Titleist 1 and both balls are identical (e.g., they are both new and without marks).  What would be the ruling then?

 

I guess that player would now have two new ProV1's instead of only one. Good for him!

[nsxguy]

On 9/14/2020 at 4:51 PM, LeoLeo99 said:

 

What if, the player lost his ball in the same spot the day before and both balls he hit were his and marked identically and indistinguishable?

 

On 9/14/2020 at 9:07 PM, antip said:

Then that player should be getting rapidly to safety from the inevitable lightning heading his way.

 

No lightning required. When Leo said "Same spot" I'm reading "same area".

 

Many years ago, I and a teammate, 2 players of a 4-man team, hit drives right down the middle to a blind fairway. Very similar shots. when we got down there we discovered we both played the same ball, number and all, neither with any markings. Both lost and back to the tee. Never failed to mark my ball since.

 

Is that not the same today ?

 

And wouldn't the guy Leo described be doing pretty much the same thing, just on different days ? 2 identical balls and can't tell which is which,,,,,,,

[antip]

52 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

No lightning required. When Leo said "Same spot" I'm reading "same area".

 

Many years ago, I and a teammate, 2 players of a 4-man team, hit drives right down the middle to a blind fairway. Very similar shots. when we got down there we discovered we both played the same ball, number and all, neither with any markings. Both lost and back to the tee. Never failed to mark my ball since.

 

Is that not the same today ?

 

And wouldn't the guy Leo described be doing pretty much the same thing, just on different days ? 2 identical balls and can't tell which is which,,,,,,,

Yes, same today. Just saying it's probably less frequent than the lightning strike. I've heard two versions of the story, both kinda fun.

 

First one came out of the UK: feller finds his ball in the rough, correct make, number and unusual ball marking and plays it, to discover it does not have the scratch he put on the original on the previous hole so he is pinged for wrong ball. At home that night, he is lamenting his astonishing misfortune to the Mrs because he's never put a ball there. She goes "oops, I borrowed some of your balls from the garage, I hit it there".

 

Second one is in one of NZ's biggest pro tournaments, an Australian touring pro near the lead finds his ball in the rough, make, number and markings correct and plays it, only to subsequently learn it was the ball he hit astray on that same hole earlier in the tournament. Player missed out winning by a couple of strokes but returned and won the same event one year later.

[LeoLeo99]

9 hours ago, antip said:

Yes, same today. Just saying it's probably less frequent than the lightning strike. I've heard two versions of the story, both kinda fun.

 

First one came out of the UK: feller finds his ball in the rough, correct make, number and unusual ball marking and plays it, to discover it does not have the scratch he put on the original on the previous hole so he is pinged for wrong ball. At home that night, he is lamenting his astonishing misfortune to the Mrs because he's never put a ball there. She goes "oops, I borrowed some of your balls from the garage, I hit it there".

 

Second one is in one of NZ's biggest pro tournaments, an Australian touring pro near the lead finds his ball in the rough, make, number and markings correct and plays it, only to subsequently learn it was the ball he hit astray on that same hole earlier in the tournament. Player missed out winning by a couple of strokes but returned and won the same event one year later.

We had this discussion i think before you joined:  player hits a provisional same exact markings as his original.  Finds original.  Pockets provisional.  Marks ball on green and puts ball in pocket with provisional.  Now he can't tell the balls apart and gets penalty for illegal substitution. 

[antip]

53 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

We had this discussion i think before you joined:  player hits a provisional same exact markings as his original.  Finds original.  Pockets provisional.  Marks ball on green and puts ball in pocket with provisional.  Now he can't tell the balls apart and gets penalty for illegal substitution. 

Bizarre, but I'm having great difficulty trying to muster any sympathy for this dude.

[Mr. Bean]

23 hours ago, antip said:

Bizarre, but I'm having great difficulty trying to muster any sympathy for this dude.

 

C'mon, antip, have a heart! The guy is a poor one and his other pocket was so filled with stray balls he had found on that hole that there was no room for his provisional so he had to put both balls in the same pocket.