Speed

[heavy_hitter]

2 minutes ago, iteachgolf said:

Only worked at Winged Foot because all the greens are open in front.  Phil almost won hitting 3 fairways.  Historically driving accuracy hasn’t mattered there. Almost all other US Open venues you won’t win hitting 45% of your fairways.   It was a perfect storm for that golf course.  That strategy cannot be applied across the board

Not generally talking a major.  If you look how golf is played today it is to hit it as far as you can with no recourse.  The further down the fairway you make your mistake the easier it usually is to get it up and down for bogey.

[tiger1873]

24 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

 

I don't care what you say, a kid that hits a pitching wedge into a green is going to hit it closer than a kid hitting a 4 iron.  And even Carl Lewis wants to know how you make the jump from a US Kids event to a Major because that chasm is huge.

 

Here's the first article I haven't ever read that I found when Googling proximity to hole.  I could also link about a thousand TPI articles, tweets from major winners, etc. 

 

https://shotscope.com/blog/stats/approach-shots-average-proximity/

 

 

 

 

Conclusion
The statistics revealed in this blog, highlight that approach shots are hit closer to the pin, the closer to the green a golfer is. This means that when selecting what club to hit for the previous shot (tee shot or par 5 lay up), the aim should be to get as close to the hole as possible. The lie type of the approach shot should be considered too, as it is evident that rough and bunkers impact the shot.

 

 

Honestly sometimes you need to read what you put down here stats like this is kind of common sense and everyone just knows it.  No one is saying a  4 iron is better then a wedge.  Everyone here is talking about Bryson well he is a pretty good ball striker odds are he could hit a 4 iron closer then most people can with a wedge. 

 

You want to score low it comes down to this hit as close to the pin as possible.  If your really good that means it be close enough that your get 4-5 birdies without even trying very hard. On the other half of the holes you happy to get par. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by tiger1873

[wildcatden]

17 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

https://shotscope.com/blog/stats/approach-shots-average-proximity/

 

Conclusion
The statistics revealed in this blog, highlight that approach shots are hit closer to the pin, the closer to the green a golfer is. This means that when selecting what club to hit for the previous shot (tee shot or par 5 lay up), the aim should be to get as close to the hole as possible. The lie type of the approach shot should be considered too, as it is evident that rough and bunkers impact the shot.

 

Nice data. I think they missed out on "angle to the pin" as that may also have some effect.  My kid had many approach shots into the green last week where he had to come over bunkers because he hit his drive well....but pulled it left.  10 yards shorter but in the fairway would have been 52* wedge instead of 56*wedge and playing "uphill landing spot" to the flagstick vs "sidehill landing spot" to the flagstick.  Still, overall the data they present is pretty telling.

[tiger1873]

9 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

Not generally talking a major.  If you look how golf is played today it is to hit it as far as you can with no recourse.  The further down the fairway you make your mistake the easier it usually is to get it up and down for bogey.

 

That's why most junior  players will never break 75 consistently.   You have to be able to make par when mistakes happen.  It  not should matter where the ball ends up. If it's in the rough though your going to have a hard time stopping that ball on the green unless you happen to be strong enough.

 

Trying to have a kid  play like a TOP PGA player without strength is stupid. You have to play to your strengths.

[leezer99]

8 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

Honestly sometimes you need to read what you put down here stats like this is kind of common sense and everyone just knows it.  No one is saying a  4 iron is better then a wedge.  Every one talking about Bryson well he a pretty good ball striker odds are he could hit a 4 iron closer then most people can with a wedge. 

 

You want to score low it comes down to this hit as close to the pin as possible.  If your really good that means it be close enough that your get 4-5 birdies without even trying very hard. On the other half of the holes you happy to get par. 

 

 

Huh, I thought dinosaurs and their way of thinking were extinct.  Thanks for proving me wrong. 

[heavy_hitter]

Just now, tiger1873 said:

 

That's why most junior  players will never break 75 consistently.   You have to be able to make par when mistakes happen.  It  not should matter where the ball ends up. If it's in the rough though your going to have a hard time stopping that ball on the green unless you happen to be strong enough.

 

 

You are wrong.  Most of the kids that are the better players have always been the longest players.  It doesn't matter if we are talking boy's or girl's.  If we are talking about 5" of rough it is a problem.  Most places it isn't a problem stopping the ball out of the rough.

[leezer99]

2 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

You are wrong.  Most of the kids that are the better players have always been the longest players.  It doesn't matter if we are talking boy's or girl's.  If we are talking about 5" of rough it is a problem.  Most places it isn't a problem stopping the ball out of the rough.

And players that are longer are stronger which means they’re hitting a 9 iron from the rough versus a shorter weaker kid that would have to hit a 6 iron from the same spot. 
 

I mean, they didn’t Tiger Proof Augusta because he hit too many fairways. 

[heavy_hitter]

2 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

And players that are longer are stronger which means they’re hitting a 9 iron from the rough versus a shorter weaker kid that would have to hit a 6 iron from the same spot. 
 

I mean, they didn’t Tiger Proof Augusta because he hit too many fairways. 

I used to think the same way as Tiger. I was wrong.  A wedge will always beat a 7i whether playing from the fairway or the rough.

[tiger1873]

 

2 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

And players that are longer are stronger which means they’re hitting a 9 iron from the rough versus a shorter weaker kid that would have to hit a 6 iron from the same spot. 
 

I mean, they didn’t Tiger Proof Augusta because he hit too many fairways. 

 

I never said length isn't an advantage that is obvious here but the truth is most Juniors are not very good ball strikers period.  The people who hit the ball the best win a lot tournaments.

 

You guys can believe what you want but if you have a 7 iron or less in your hand on most holes you going to have the ability to win a lot tournaments.  You'll  not have a problem hitting greens and scoring low enough for the tournaments we are talking about.

 

You guys are not talking about a lot strokes difference in abilities if a player is a good ball striker.

 

[tiger1873]

47 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

I used to think the same way as Tiger. I was wrong.  A wedge will always beat a 7i whether playing from the fairway or the rough.

 

In the real world there is not going to be a huge difference in distance between a lot players in a given tournament. If Player 1 is using a wedge chances are at most we are talking about a 9 iron  with player 2.  The difference between a wedge and 9 iron is not that much if the player 1 and 2 is not much if player 2 is a superior ball striker and player 1 is an average ball striker.  In this case chances are Player 2 will end up with a better score anyways. 

 

You could also make it up in putting as well. At the end of the day the differences are so small it's not going to matter.

Edited October 29, 2020 by tiger1873

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

1 hour ago, leezer99 said:

And players that are longer are stronger which means they’re hitting a 9 iron from the rough versus a shorter weaker kid that would have to hit a 6 iron from the same spot. 
 

I mean, they didn’t Tiger Proof Augusta because he hit too many fairways. 

and to add on.  Watch a strong kid (athletic) power through the rough.  Watch a kid with that 6 iron only manage a knuckle out.  Then he is still probably 100 yards away.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

I never said length isn't an advantage that is obvious here but the truth is most Juniors are not very good ball strikers period.  The people who hit the ball the best win a lot tournaments.

 

You guys can believe what you want but if you have a 7 iron or less in your hand on most holes you going to have the ability to win a lot tournaments.  You'll  not have a problem hitting greens and scoring low enough for the tournaments we are talking about.

 

You guys are not talking about a lot strokes difference in abilities if a player is a good ball striker.

 

What junior are you watching?  Most I see pure the ball over and over.

[tiger1873]

3 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

What junior are you watching?  Most I see pure the ball over and over.

 

Well there is no such thing as anyone who hit's a pure shot 100% of time.  Golf is a game of mishits. The biggest difference is what does those mishits mean. That though is another thread.

 

Distance matters but just having distance alone is not going win tournaments. Golf is a lot harder then that.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

5 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Well there is no such thing as anyone who hit's a pure shot 100% of time.  Golf is a game of mishits. The biggest difference is what does those mishits mean. That though is another thread.

 

Distance matters but just having distance alone is not going win tournaments. Golf is a lot harder then that.

You said:

 

Juniors are not very good ball strikers period.  The people who hit the ball the best win a lot tournaments.

 

I said: Most I see pure the ball over and over. I understand there is misses, but to say juniors arent good ball strikers IMHO is inaccurate.

[tiger1873]

13 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

You said:

 

Juniors are not very good ball strikers period.  The people who hit the ball the best win a lot tournaments.

 

I said: Most I see pure the ball over and over. I understand there is misses, but to say juniors arent good ball strikers IMHO is inaccurate.

 

There not the vast majority don't break 75 never mind par.   Do you know anyone who isn't trying to get ball within a few feet of the pin most of the time?  If you don't it's miss period.  Most juniors are lucky to hit the green 9 times so there is a lot room for improvement. Why do you think everyone says they need a wedge in their hand.

 

The worse the lie you have the harder it is to hit it well. A club from a flat lie in the fairway is always better then a sloped buried ball in the rough.  If your going to  miss the fairway it better not be a bad place. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by tiger1873

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

6 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

There not the vast majority don't break 75 never mind par.   Do you know anyone who isn't trying to get ball within a few feet of the pin most of the time?  If you don't it's miss period.  Most juniors are lucky to hit the green 9 times so there is a lot room for improvement. Why do you think everyone says they need a wedge in their hand.

 

The worse the lie you have the harder it is to hit it well. A club from a flat lie in the fairway is always better then a sloped buried ball in the rough.  If your going to  miss the fairway it better not be a bad place. 

Why do you kept saying this. "Most"

Most juniors are lucky to hit the green 9 times so there is a lot room for improvement. Why do you think everyone says they need a wedge in their hand.

 

Do you mean the kids you are watching, what? What age group are you talking about?  High level boys 50% GIR is below average.

 

 

"The worse the lie you have the harder it is to hit it well. A club from a flat lie in the fairway is always better then a sloped buried ball in the rough.  If your going to  miss the fairway it better not be a bad place. "

 

Depends on how you practice.  If you're the type of person that only practices on flat lies in the fairway then yes you better not miss.

[tiger1873]

1 minute ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

Why do you kept saying this. "Most"

Most juniors are lucky to hit the green 9 times so there is a lot room for improvement. Why do you think everyone says they need a wedge in their hand.

 

Do you mean the kids you are watching, what? What age group are you talking about?  High level boys 50% GIR is below average.

 

 

"The worse the lie you have the harder it is to hit it well. A club from a flat lie in the fairway is always better then a sloped buried ball in the rough.  If your going to  miss the fairway it better not be a bad place. "

 

Depends on how you practice.  If you're the type of person that only practices on flat lies in the fairway then yes you better not miss.

 

I am talking about average juniors out there playing average events and this includes High School Kids. If you say they are hitting more then half the greens and making birdies then either the course is way to short or your not watching them. Put those kids on a course that plays major events and watch them get crushed.

 

The top kids for the most part all already hit it far enough.  Once you get to that difference in driving distance is not really a huge advantage they all hit far enough. This where I am saying that it simply doesn't matter if one hit's it 5 or 10 yards more.

 

All the stat's flying around are meaningless only 2 stats matter and that is proximity to the pin and how many putts you can make at that distance. If you can sink half those in 1 putt your going to win a heck of a lot.

[leezer99]

Posted 41 minutes ago by Golf Magazine.  Quote from BK.

 

[iteachgolf]

3 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

I used to think the same way as Tiger. I was wrong.  A wedge will always beat a 7i whether playing from the fairway or the rough.

Not exactly accurate.  From a strokes gained perspective 180 from the fairway has a lower expected number of shots to hole than 130 from the rough.  From a proximity standpoint hitting it in the rough is about a 50 yard penalty vs hitting in the fairway. 

[heavy_hitter]

1 minute ago, iteachgolf said:

Not exactly accurate.  From a strokes gained perspective 180 from the fairway has a lower expected number of shots to hole than 130 from the rough.  From a proximity standpoint hitting it in the rough is about a 50 yard penalty vs hitting in the fairway. 

We both know that depends on the type of rough you are in as well.  If you take your normal Florida Course the rough isn't bad at all.  Too many Seniors would never get it out, it makes play slower on muni's, members at private clubs don't like it.  These kids aren't playing in rough that is damaging at all.  Many of the tour events aren't damaging either.  Mission Inn right now isn't going to penalize anyone right now unless you are in the trees.

[iteachgolf]

2 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

We both know that depends on the type of rough you are in as well.  If you take your normal Florida Course the rough isn't bad at all.  Too many Seniors would never get it out, it makes play slower on muni's, members at private clubs don't like it.  These kids aren't playing in rough that is damaging at all.  Many of the tour events aren't damaging either.  Mission Inn right now isn't going to penalize anyone right now unless you are in the trees.

It’s not about having to pitch out sideways.  The rough absolutely affects distance control and makes proximity to the hole worse.  Being in the rough is bout a 50 yard penalty.  Stats and experience backs that up. Hitting it slightly less accurate but further is absolutely an advantage.  Hitting less than 50% of fairways to gain 20 yards isn’t gaining anything.   
 

Johnson Wagner averages 105mph with driver yet is 19th in strokes gained off the tee.  JJ Spaun is 21st with a clubhead speed that’s 110mph.  Chris Baker is the same strokes gained off the tee as Dustin Johnson while being outside top 200 in clubhead speed.  Austin Cook is ranked in front of Tony Finau in strokes gained off the tee while swinging 109.  I could go on.  Missing fairways absolutely matters. 

[Steele47]

7 hours ago, leezer99 said:

Posted 41 minutes ago by Golf Magazine.  Quote from BK.

 

 

 

Sounds like what Grout told Nicklaus as a kid.

[leezer99]

All those guys you mentioned with slow swing speeds but good SG off the tee need everything to line up perfectly (like Zach Johnson’s Major wins) to be competitive. Guys like Dustin or Tony can compete with their B game.  If Dustin and Tony hit 75% of their fairways they’re going to be in contention. 

[iteachgolf]

7 hours ago, leezer99 said:

All those guys you mentioned with slow swing speeds but good SG off the tee need everything to line up perfectly (like Zach Johnson’s Major wins) to be competitive. Guys like Dustin or Tony can compete with their B game.  If Dustin and Tony hit 75% of their fairways they’re going to be in contention. 

That’s simply not true.  Again they are gaining more strokes off the tee on average.  It’s not a one off it’s an average.  Zach Johnson has won more majors than Dustin.  Nobody is saying length isn’t an advantage.  But chasing length at the expense of accuracy has derailed plenty of guys careers, including two guys who were world number 1 in the last decade.  Gaining speed is fine but how you do it is extremely important.  It should come from more efficient mechanics and supported by gym work.  You should gain accuracy, not lose it 

[leezer99]

@iteachgolf I just want to nip this in the bud.  This conversation is about developing speed in junior golfers.  This is not a conversation about an already developed golfer chasing speed.  

[iteachgolf]

16 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

@iteachgolf I just want to nip this in the bud.  This conversation is about developing speed in junior golfers.  This is not a conversation about an already developed golfer chasing speed.  

Even more so with junior golfers.  Speed comes from more efficient and improved mechanics.  Work in the gym supports those improvements. When done correctly you gain speed and accuracy.   I see juniors on a daily basis developing terrible habits trying to swing as hard as they can incorrectly. Speed is an effect of good mechanics.  

[tiger1873]

8 minutes ago, iteachgolf said:

Even more so with junior golfers.  Speed comes from more efficient and improved mechanics.  Work in the gym supports those improvements. When done correctly you gain speed and accuracy.   I see juniors on a daily basis developing terrible habits trying to swing as hard as they can incorrectly. Speed is an effect of good mechanics.  

 

This very true I can tell any instructor worth anything will tell you the same thing.  I had the same advice from a very well known instructor.  Improving mechanic is a must and the fastest way to gain distance.

 

I see so many kids with extra long drivers and that is also a bad long term development. I was told worry about that when there older

[Kcct82]

My kid just turned 8 yesterday (50th percentile in height and weight). We basically did what iteach suggested for a full year (swing efficiency/mechanics and gym work). 7 iron went from 48mph swinging all out to 51-52mph in tournament with good contact/accuracy. Swinging hard ups the speed to 55-56mph. Max driver went from 58 to 64mph. 
 

 

[wildcatden]

@Kcct82 - We have been working on the same things. Really been struggling with mechanics/efficiency for months although it is getting  better over the last couple weeks.  Essentially, finally got something to "click" in his brain and we are seeing better full releases (especially with driver).

 

Some kids we saw at tournaments this summer just seem to have such a natural speed to their swings. They can be very erratic in their accuracy, but they were hitting it waaaaay past us. My kid is 9YO,  4'7" and 78lbs so I would say middle of the pack in height/weight.  We want the distance but developing consistency habits (some seem more mental game) feel like it is just as important.

[Kcct82]

30 minutes ago, wildcatden said:

@Kcct82 - We have been working on the same things. Really been struggling with mechanics/efficiency for months although it is getting  better over the last couple weeks.  Essentially, finally got something to "click" in his brain and we are seeing better full releases (especially with driver).

 

Some kids we saw at tournaments this summer just seem to have such a natural speed to their swings. They can be very erratic in their accuracy, but they were hitting it waaaaay past us. My kid is 9YO,  4'7" and 78lbs so I would say middle of the pack in height/weight.  We want the distance but developing consistency habits (some seem more mental game) feel like it is just as important.

Yes, I’ve seen it too. It’s definitely gonna be a slow process for our “average” kids. I’ve seriously tried everything I can think of... TPI, Par4Sucess, trackman, flightscope, k-vest, protein shakes, and various coaches. I’ve even tried to get him on Gears (but he’s too small for the equipment). I don’t think there’s a magic move for speed. You just gotta keep grinding. Tournaments are still playable for his age because he’s able to make up for the driving distance on his 2nd shot with a 3w. I often see kids out drive my kid, but end up about the same after the 2nd shot on Par 5’s.