On the green, or not?

[jobin]

Willie Park, jr referred to the Rules of the day (1896) which showed that the putting green is defined as the ground within 20 yards of the hole, excepting hazards.   Today's definition is more precise but maybe not entirely without judgement.

 

The Rule today is that the putting ground is 'specially prepared for putting', or is otherwise defined by the Committee.  The latter for  temporary greens, etc.

 

My club plays some courses which have a cut edge: "a distinct cut around the edge of the green and (if) the join impedes your putting stroke you are entitled to free relief no penalty".  This join is actually a groove cut in the turf, to hinder the crab grass from running onto the putting surface. I believe this quoted statement defines for our club at least, the outer edge of the green.  I would also argue that if a ball lay in the groove, that ball is on the green.

 

Today i played a ball from the greenside bunker to 'on the green', so i thought.  The ball was at least a foot inside the groove, towards the hole.  However, within the groove line, totally surrounding the very closely mown grass, was an area of about 1 yard where the grass was not quite so closely mown;  that grass was darker green and 1/8 (+/-) inch longer.  Picture a Venn diagram with concentric circles: the inner, closely mown circle 90% of the area = agreed to be the green: totally enclosing the inner circle is another of total 10% of the area, and in dispute.

 

I marked and cleaned my ball coz i believed it on the green.  I took some heat as fellow competitor was adamant that only the very closely mown  grass, not the longer/greener stuff, was the 'green'. Now some holes at this course do not have this longer grass feature, others have an outer concentric circle of much longer grass but all have the groove.  Fellow player thought the greenskeeper was reducing the size of the greens to cut costs, hence making the greens smaller.  But i cannot play his intent, only the course as offered.

 

So, what's your thought of the 'putting green'?  And should i accept a penalty for my error?

[Newby]

49 minutes ago, jobin said:

 

a distinct cut around the edge of the green and (if)

I would suggest that the area inside the cut is the green as the word 'around' implies that it is not 'part of' (eg the wrapping around a present)

 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, jobin said:

Today i played a ball from the greenside bunker to 'on the green', so i thought.  The ball was at least a foot inside the groove, towards the hole.  However, within the groove line, totally surrounding the very closely mown grass, was an area of about 1 yard where the grass was not quite so closely mown;  that grass was darker green and 1/8 (+/-) inch longer. 

 

I think your answer is in the definition of a putting green.

 

Putting Green

 

The area on the hole the player is playing that:

Is specially prepared for putting,

 

or

 

The Committee has defined as the putting green (such as when a temporary green is used).

 

Sans any committee definition, since that area was not cut down to green height it was not "specially prepared for putting". 

 

[Sawgrass]

31 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I think your answer is in the definition of a putting green.

 

Putting Green

 

The area on the hole the player is playing that:

Is specially prepared for putting,

 

or

 

The Committee has defined as the putting green (such as when a temporary green is used).

 

Sans any committee definition, since that area was not cut down to green height it was not "specially prepared for putting". 

 

I think I disagree with that last bit.  "Specially prepared for putting" doesn't mean "having a particular height."  To expand, if there was a group of fast-growing weeds that were an inch above the surface of the green in the center of the green, a ball resting there would be on the green.  And you couldn't even "repair" it since it is natural.

 

IMO, absent further clarifications from the committee, I'd say you are on the green since your ball is touching the grass inside of the cut line.

[Halebopp]

While I'm not sure whether or not the groove is a part of the green, I agree with Sawgrass that if your ball is in the groove, the part of the ball leaning against the greenside edge of the groove is touching the green and therefore the ball is on the green. (I'm assuming the groove isn't big enough for the ball to fall into it completely.)

Edited February 12, 2021 by Halebopp

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I think I disagree with that last bit.  "Specially prepared for putting" doesn't mean "having a particular height."  To expand, if there was a group of fast-growing weeds that were an inch above the surface of the green in the center of the green, a ball resting there would be on the green.  And you couldn't even "repair" it since it is natural.

 

IMO, absent further clarifications from the committee, I'd say you are on the green since your ball is touching the grass inside of the cut line.

 

Fair enough and you're the official, but if the cut of the "real" putting surface is clearly lower than that of the area the poster's ball is on I would suggest the shorter surface has been "specially prepared as a putting green" and any other part has not.

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

While I'm not sure whether or not the groove is a part of the green, I agree with Sawgrass that if your ball is in the groove, the part of the ball leaning against the greenside edge of the groove is touching the green and therefore the ball is on the green. (I'm assuming the groove isn't big enough for the ball to fall into it completely.)

But regardless of the ball technically being on the green free relief is available subject to the parameters in the Local Rule (which may have been omitted).

[Newby]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Fair enough and you're the official, but if the cut of the "real" putting surface is clearly lower than that of the area the poster's ball is on I would suggest the shorter surface has been "specially prepared as a putting green" and any other part has not.

The definition does not specify what 'preparation' is. But I would consider it to include ensuring the right grass species are maintained and encouraged and the wrong types excluded. Exactly the aim of the groove. IMO anything inside the groove is prepared.

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

The definition does not specify what 'preparation' is. But I would consider it to include ensuring the right grass species are maintained and encouraged and the wrong types excluded. Exactly the aim of the groove. IMO anything inside the groove is prepared.

 

Again, just as with sawgrass, YOU guys are officials and you would make these sorts of decisions.

 

But every green I've ever seen has been consistently cut to the same "prepared" height.

 

The definition of the putting green is above so I won't bother repeating it again.

 

The "Rulies" here have said, even before the 2019 simplification that the Rules aren't that hard to understand.

 

I find it hard to believe there's a clearer cut case than this definition but leave it to you guys to make it UNclear.

 

Perhaps now you understand why the average golfer finds the rules so difficult and complicated ?

 

And next we'll debate what the meaning of "is" is. Oh, wait.

[Halebopp]

14 minutes ago, Newby said:

But regardless of the ball technically being on the green free relief is available subject to the parameters in the Local Rule (which may have been omitted).

 

True, I simply forgot to think about the actual implications. 🙂

 

Wouldn't the groove be a hole made by the staff to maintain the course and therefore GUR?

[Halebopp]

10 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Again, just as with sawgrass, YOU guys are officials and you would make these sorts of decisions.

 

But every green I've ever seen has been consistently cut to the same "prepared" height.

 

The definition of the putting green is above so I won't bother repeating it again.

 

The "Rulies" here have said, even before the 2019 simplification that the Rules aren't that hard to understand.

 

I find it hard to believe there's a clearer cut case than this definition but leave it to you guys to make it UNclear.

 

Perhaps now you understand why the average golfer finds the rules so difficult and complicated ?

 

And next we'll debate what the meaning of "is" is. Oh, wait.

 

The issue we're dealing with is very easy to handle for a player. Read what the Local Rules say about the grooves. The problems start when the Committee makes a mess of it or fails to write the Local Rule altogether.

That being said, I would not understand a thing they talk about in the instruction forum when they tell you to supinate your (insert a made-up muscle name) at P5 and then rotate your who-knows-what", all the while they'd tell me swinging a club is very simple and easy.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Halebopp

[Sawgrass]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

The "Rulies" here have said, even before the 2019 simplification that the Rules aren't that hard to understand.

 

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Perhaps now you understand why the average golfer finds the rules so difficult and complicated ?

 

 

I seriously doubt any of the refs frequenting this forum have ever said that the rules as a whole are easy.  I certainly haven’t.  Perhaps one issue or another is easy, but we know better than most how complicated things can get. 
 

 

[Newby]

17 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Again, just as with sawgrass, YOU guys are officials and you would make these sorts of decisions.

 

 

That may be the case in the field but ultimately it is the responsibility of the committee, on behalf of the players, to make everything clear. 

 

[rogolf]

Imo, the putting green is defined by the mower cut line, not any groove or edging (see MLR F-19, Edging Grooves NEAR Putting Greens) unless the Committee has stated that the edging defines the putting green.  This confusion is largely due to player education or to Committee failure, not the Rules.

Edited February 12, 2021 by rogolf

[LeoLeo99]

16 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Imo, the putting green is defined by the mower cut line, not any groove or edging (see MLR F-19, Edging Grooves NEAR Putting Greens) unless the Committee has stated that the edging defines the putting green.  This confusion is largely due to player education or to Committee failure, not the Rules.

 

This is my take on it.  Does the groove at this course override the general definition of "green" in the rules.  I'd have to look at the other greens and the historical tradition at the club.  If every green was cut to green height inside the groove and the groove was the defining line then I'd assume the green mower just missed a spot.  But if sometimes they cut a fringe inside the groove line that doesn't count as the green, I'd say the groove line is not the definition of the green.  

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

The issue we're dealing with is very easy to handle for a player. Read what the Local Rules say about the grooves. The problems start when the Committee makes a mess of it or fails to write the Local Rule altogether.
 

 

I believe you're on the other side of the pond, yes ?

 

Here in the States, especially on munis and other public golf courses, we're often lucky to be given a scorecard never mind having "Local Rules" on them.

 

OK, OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration but the course I play at most lately, a muni, has these "grooves" around the greens.

 

Just really noticed them yesterday actually as I chip pretty much everything from off the green - and now I have another good reason for chipping.   But yesterday I putted right through one of them and, of course, the ball hopped.

 

TBH I didn't notice if there was "fringe" between the groove and the "prepared" putting surface - but I don't think there was.

 

I'll look tomorrow when I next play there but I'd bet right now there's nothing on the scorecard about these grooves or where the green actually begins. There's also some docs on the clubhouse wall in the "locker room". I'll take a look there as well if I remember.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

 

I seriously doubt any of the refs frequenting this forum have ever said that the rules as a whole are easy.  I certainly haven’t.  Perhaps one issue or another is easy, but we know better than most how complicated things can get. 
 

 

 

If I may,,,,,,, I didn't say youse guys said the ROG were "easy". I said "not that hard".

 

But often a ruling is "Read Rule X, then read Rule Z, which refers to as an exception to this Rule X. Then go to the Decisions, now Interpretations to get the real skinny.

 

Then try to understand which supersedes which.

 

The 2019 revision was terrific. Made lotsa things much easier to understand.

 

But then we get here. Sans a committee ruling, the definition of "Putting Green", to ME, couldn't be any clearer.

 

Yet we still have differing opinions because of some groove that isn't mentioned anywhere - or at least not in the definition. 

[rogolf]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

If I may,,,,,,, I didn't say youse guys said the ROG were "easy". I said "not that hard".

 

But often a ruling is "Read Rule X, then read Rule Z, which refers to as an exception to this Rule X. Then go to the Decisions, now Interpretations to get the real skinny.

 

Then try to understand which supersedes which.

 

The 2019 revision was terrific. Made lotsa things much easier to understand.

 

But then we get here. Sans a committee ruling, the definition of "Putting Green", to ME, couldn't be any clearer.

 

Yet we still have differing opinions because of some groove that isn't mentioned anywhere - or at least not in the definition. 

Such grooves or edging are pretty rare (in my experience), and not always in the same place relative to the edge of the putting green, so the Rules of golf don't refer to them.  Some courses might have the groove/edging right on the interface of green and fringe, other courses might try to protect the fringe from invading grasses so put the edging/groove completely away from the putting green.  Committee needs to address this.

And I agree with you, the putting green is very clear to me - it's the mower cut line.

[Sawgrass]

A photo of this greenside/green-like abomination would be helpful. 😄

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

A photo of this greenside/green-like abomination would be helpful. 😄

Not what you asked for, but here's a picture of some edging that separated the fringe from the invasive grasses.

[Newby]

13 hours ago, rogolf said:

Such grooves or edging are pretty rare (in my experience), and not always in the same place relative to the edge of the putting green, so the Rules of golf don't refer to them.  Some courses might have the groove/edging right on the interface of green and fringe, other courses might try to protect the fringe from invading grasses so put the edging/groove completely away from the putting green.  Committee needs to address this.

And I agree with you, the putting green is very clear to me - it's the mower cut line.

The definition does not mention a mower cut line. The only criterion is that it is prepared. Preparation does not only include mowing. It may involve watering, fertilising, weed treatment, micro tining .....

Edited February 13, 2021 by Newby

[Sawgrass]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

The definition does not mention a mower cut line. The only criterion is that it is prepared. Preparation does not only include mowing. It may involve watering, fertilising, weed treatment, micro tining .....

Or, in the case of one fairly recent U.S. Open, putting white paint dots around the green for location identification purposes!  (Seems like a groove could be a handy reference if you chose to use it.)

[596]

I just had this discussion with our Super the other day.  If a mower has missed the edge of the green and cut into the fringe, where is the "green"?  You can see where the green "should" be, but the mower has "scalped" the green 3" into the fringe.  We both agreed that that the "green" is now 3" larger and you can mark your ball on what used to the fringe but is now the "green" as it has been cut as "green".  If the mower is inside the green/fringe line and left uncut greens grass then the "green" is where the cut line is, not where the type of grass says it is.   Both of these situations are common when you get nongolfer new maintenance workers cutting the greens for the first time. 

 

The "green" is where the cut line is.  Not defined by type of grass, etc.  This is why I spent 3 hours this week marking 29 greens edges with white paint. 

 

As for the OP, if you were in the longer grass well inside that "edging", on our course, you'd not be on the green until you were on the greens cut length of grass.

 

This also brings up another problem we have at our course.  We don't cut perimeters everyday, as it wears out a greens mower tire line around the green if you do it too much.  SO, we have 2 days worth of some grass at the greens edge that is uncut.  SO, are you on the green of you are in one of those uncut spots?  It a whole new can of worms!!   

[cardoustie]

Your competitor is a clown

[Sawgrass]

2 minutes ago, 596 said:

 

 

As for the OP, if you were in the longer grass well inside that "edging", on our course, you'd not be on the green until you were on the greens cut length of grass.

 

 

So, in your opinion, if the hole is in the center of the green and there's longer grass missed by a mower a foot from the cup, the ball is not on the green and the player may not mark, lift or clean his ball?

[rogolf]

I seem to recall that I read or heard an interpretation, probably by a PGATour referee, that said they use the "regular or normal" cut line to determine the edge of the putting green, ie, they ignore minor cutting variances of that day.  I'm also quite sure that any variances are minor given the quality of the staff they are dealing with at their competitions.

[rogolf]

9 hours ago, Newby said:

The definition does not mention a mower cut line. The only criterion is that it is prepared. Preparation does not only include mowing. It may involve watering, fertilising, weed treatment, micro tining .....

I guess that one should always look at the definitions, and the whole definition, which says, in part, (my emphasis added),

"The edge of a putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (such as where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge), unless the Committee defines the edge in a different way."

[Newby]

"Such as" of course is simply an equivalent to "for example". It is not definitive. 

But as I have said, in this case the committee should have made it clear.

[antip]

I have an official answer to this inconsistent mower edge issue, paraphrased version being: putting green edge is where the specially prepared area starts (from definition); the edges are arcs, not jagged and not determined by the latest mower cut; if the cut is inconsistent and the edge cannot be clearly seen, Committee help is needed.

[596]

8 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

So, in your opinion, if the hole is in the center of the green and there's longer grass missed by a mower a foot from the cup, the ball is not on the green and the player may not mark, lift or clean his ball?

 Lets not get ridiculous.  Its much more common to  see a different edge of a green then it is a chunk in the middle.  You need to use common sense.  There's not one person in the world that would ever call a missed slice of grass in the middle of the green the fringe.  But that outline of the area of the green by a mower is indeed the edge of the green.  

 

This is where the rules of golf get totally confusing because someone always brings up  a one in a million situation and wants it to be spelled out in the rules.  Common sense rules.