Masters Sunday: Horschel @13

[Colin L]

26 minutes ago, Dim said:

Exactly my point. One could change its explanation depending on the outcome of this ‘flicking with a wedge’.

 

And again nothing to do with Horschel. I like his ‘passion’ and would have loved to see him do better.

 

I am just amazed at how unclear this can be. I am picking balls from the pond with my club all day. Call me cheap, I don’t care.

 

In this situation there should be a clear distinction in the rules between:

- lifting

- moving

- stroke

There is.

[Dim]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

T

 

I'm not normally as blunt as this in a rules forum, but  you demonstrate two problems in this thread.

1.  You don't properly understand the Rules.

2. You're not listening to those who do.

Thnx Colin, I like people who are blunt.

 

Just trying to understand the rules better and you helped me (and others?) out.

 

I still do not get where this conclusion comes from though. I can find clear rules for ‘in play’ and ‘substitute’, but I can not find anything about this decision the player makes.

 

And as a footnote: I do not know who knows the rules and who does not and do appreciate everyones response.

[Colin L]

If you mean the decision that his ball is unplayable, try Rule 19.1

 

I take your point about not knowing who know the rules particularly well.  Included in a list of those qualified would be (in no particular order!) Sui Generis, Sawgrass, Newby, Rogolf, Mr Bean, Antip, myself and  ...... apologies to any missed out.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Colin L

[sui generis]

4 minutes ago, Colin L said:

If you mean the decision that his ball is unplayable, try Rule 19.1

 

I take your point about not knowing who know the rules particularly well.  Included would be (in no particular order!) Sui Generis, Sawgrass, Newby, Rogolf, Mr Bean, Antip ...... apologies to any missed out.

 

 

I'll add (in no particular order) Colin L, Halebopp and QEight. There are others who we'll get to soon enough. 😉

[Dim]

14 minutes ago, Colin L said:

If you mean the decision that his ball is unplayable, try Rule 19.1

Rule 19.1 does not apply to penalty areas. It is mentioned under 19.1 and 17.3. An unplayable ball in a penalty area is treated the same as any other in a penalty area.

 

Rule 17 explains the options for taking relief. Substitution in several places is described there. I think it does not say anything about lifting/moving of the ball in the penalty area.

 

17.1.c even mentiones the ball in the hazard being in play until the substitute is in play.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Dim

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Dim said:

Ok that would be great, but is that your conclusion because of Interpretation 14.1a/1? So basically, it all depends on my intention. If I was intending to lift I was not moving the ball?

 

 

YES !!! (we are finally there)

[Colin L]

42 minutes ago, Dim said:

Rule 19.1 does not apply to penalty areas. It is mentioned under 19.1 and 17.3. An unplayable ball in a penalty area is treated the same as any other in a penalty area.

 

Rule 17 explains the options for taking relief. Substitution in several places is described there. I think it does not say anything about lifting/moving of the ball in the penalty area.

 

17.1.c even mentiones the ball in the hazard being in play until the substitute is in play.

Yes I know 19.1 does not apply to penalty areas but the OP did not say that Horschell's ball was in one. 

[gulpeg]

2 hours ago, Imp said:

I decide I'm going to take a lift, but don't tell anyone, because there's no requirement. That's settled.
How it's lifted, not an issue either. That's settled.

So, I hit it into the creek. 

Here's my issue....

It gives the appearance that I can, based on that outcome of the following, decide my next step. 

If it ends up in a playable spot? I can play it, right? Stroke would count.
If it ends up in a non playable spot (like what happened), take a drop, where that 'test' was just "oh, hey just hitting it into a thing." 

See the dilemma? Let's change the player here for a sec... what if it was Reed? 

Hitting a ball with a club, not by mistake (in the new rules) but with a purpose, is still forbidden, yes? 

--kC
 

 

Agree with Imp on this one and the actual reason for the original post.

 

OK, here's the link of shots 2 and 3. from a hazard, NOT a penalty area.  unfortunately, neither of these videos show the flick backwards with the wedge. when I watched it, he flips the ball backwards from this terrible lie and leaves it in the creek. perhaps this helps clear it up a little

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2021-billy-horschel-13th-hole-raes-creek

 

the announcers said (pretty sure) that he was taking an unplayable, which spurred my first question(s) about when you do this in relation to flipping the ball back, do you have to notify playing partner, and do you have to use the same ball.  I think at this point I've been educated and it was in fact relief and NOT unplayable.

 

now the stroke part.  I'm understanding that most are stating that once relief is declared, it does not matter the method the ball is moved by.  if that true, then non of the definition below applies. if it's not true or subjective, then this definition would apply and the "flip" COULD be viewed as a stroke. apparently there are different interpretations of what constitutes a stroke. And again, no declaration of BH intent or trying to gain advantage.

 

if it wasn't a stroke, everything is correct, score stands and we all move on. if however it was, determined by rules committee I would guess, then an incorrect scorecard was signed.

 

lastly, I guess for some my original post was too accusatory, if so I apologize, I was merely looking for answers (and I've found a bunch). But it sure got people talking.

 

Stroke definition from USGA.org

Stroke

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

• Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke.

When the Rules refer to “playing a ball,” it means the same as making a stroke.

The player’s score for a hole or a round is described as a number of “strokes” or “strokes taken”, which means both all strokes made and any penalty strokes (see Rule 3.1c).

 

 

[jobin]

No stroke or penalty taken if my errant practice swing hits and moves the ball? Simply replace the ball and move on? 

An open door to escape from a divot, IMO.  Esp if the other players were on the far side of the fairway.

[rogolf]

27 minutes ago, gulpeg said:

 

Agree with Imp on this one and the actual reason for the original post.

 

OK, here's the link of shots 2 and 3. from a hazard, NOT a penalty area.  unfortunately, neither of these videos show the flick backwards with the wedge. when I watched it, he flips the ball backwards from this terrible lie and leaves it in the creek. perhaps this helps clear it up a little

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2021-billy-horschel-13th-hole-raes-creek

 

the announcers said (pretty sure) that he was taking an unplayable, which spurred my first question(s) about when you do this in relation to flipping the ball back, do you have to notify playing partner, and do you have to use the same ball.  I think at this point I've been educated and it was in fact relief and NOT unplayable.

 

now the stroke part.  I'm understanding that most are stating that once relief is declared, it does not matter the method the ball is moved by.  if that true, then non of the definition below applies. if it's not true or subjective, then this definition would apply and the "flip" COULD be viewed as a stroke. apparently there are different interpretations of what constitutes a stroke. And again, no declaration of BH intent or trying to gain advantage.

 

if it wasn't a stroke, everything is correct, score stands and we all move on. if however it was, determined by rules committee I would guess, then an incorrect scorecard was signed.

 

lastly, I guess for some my original post was too accusatory, if so I apologize, I was merely looking for answers (and I've found a bunch). But it sure got people talking.

 

Stroke definition from USGA.org

Stroke

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

• Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke.

When the Rules refer to “playing a ball,” it means the same as making a stroke.

The player’s score for a hole or a round is described as a number of “strokes” or “strokes taken”, which means both all strokes made and any penalty strokes (see Rule 3.1c).

 

 

Once the player has decided (intent) to take relief from the penalty area and not play his ball as it lies, what happens to that ball in the penalty area is largely irrelevant.  If the player's intent changes, then what happens to the original ball does become relevant.  If there was doubt about the player's intent, Committee (or referee) would need to confirm the player's intent through discussion with the player, and what the player describes as his intent would normally be taken as correct, as the Rules expect the player to act with integrity.

Further, there are no "hazards" on a golf course according to the Rules - there are penalty areas and bunkers, which prior to January 1, 2019 were "hazards" in the Rules but there are now separate Rules for each.  So, talking about "hazards" is confusing and inconsequential.

 

[Mr. Bean]

36 minutes ago, gulpeg said:

 

OK, here's the link of shots 2 and 3. from a hazard, NOT a penalty area. 

 

 

 

There are no hazards in the Rules of Golf, they are called Penalty Areas today.

 

If I were you I would let this go. It is obvious you do not want to believe what you have been told. Fair enough but let it go.

[rogolf]

4 minutes ago, jobin said:

No stroke or penalty taken if my errant practice swing hits and moves the ball? Simply replace the ball and move on? 

An open door to escape from a divot, IMO.  Esp if the other players were on the far side of the fairway.

Not sure how you're reading the Rules?  If you move your ball in play other than by a stroke, and other than on the putting green, you will incur a one stroke penalty and must replace the ball at its original spot.  See Rule 9.4.

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, jobin said:

No stroke or penalty taken if my errant practice swing hits and moves the ball? Simply replace the ball and move on? 

An open door to escape from a divot, IMO.  Esp if the other players were on the far side of the fairway.

 

If you want to cheat, sure.

 

What was your point?

[Imp]

56 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Not sure how you're reading the Rules?  If you move your ball in play other than by a stroke, and other than on the putting green, you will incur a one stroke penalty and must replace the ball at its original spot.  See Rule 9.4.

But the way I'm reading this thread is this rule doesn't apply - if you simply "intended" to take a drop out of the penalty area. That's what some of us have been working on here. 

Walk up to ball in penalty area. Take a half-hearted one-handed swing at it, it pops into water or pops up and down back into the schmutz.  "Doesn't count, I intended to just pop it up like I do with my wedges to take a drop outta here, over there.." (I don't have to tell anyone else my intent....)

Everyone there would look at me like I had two heads and tell me to sod off, "you took a swing at it". 

Follow the process. If you're saying that "but intent is all that matters" my half-hearted stroke can simply be cancelled before taking the lift "because I was just lifting it using my club."

Also, I'm not sure why theres a sudden lack of patience in this thread (*cough* Hawkeye77 *cough*), it's been replaced by rather caustic replies. Lost some big bets from the Masters this weekend? 🙂

Most of us posting/asking the other side are being treated with a higher level of derision than usually experienced here. What's up with that?

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Imp

[tatertot]

5 hours ago, gulpeg said:

after speaking with a PGA Class A pro rules guy, here's what I now understand. He admittedly DID NOT see this happen.

 

BH hit one into creek on 13 (1), takes 2 attempts to extricate himself from hazard (2,3). decides he's had enough and then goes back on line entered, drops, takes stroke and hits 5 (4.5). Ball was not necessarily declared unplayable, but simply relief. (this part I was unclear on and wrong about, i'm now corrected).

 

however, the questions still remains: did he take a stroke when flipping the ball back into creek with wedge vs. picking it up with his hand. I've read the USGA definition of a stroke and it could be debated (should we start a new one?) that is could be deemed as a stroke.

 

He recounted an instance in a match where a player was walking down a fairway backhanding range balls off the fairway back toward the range fences and was assessed a penalty for practicing. Clearly that was not the intent as I'm sure BH had no intent with the ball he flipped. But technically he made contact with the ball. Probably would have been better in hindsight to just pick it up and leave no room for discussion.

 

Is that a stroke? some say yes, some say no. On and on it goes.

 

If yes, then he posted an incorrect score, if no then all is fine.

 

 

It doesn't go on on ... there is no debate, he is not DQ'ed, it's not a stroke.

[Hawkeye77]

17 minutes ago, Imp said:

But the way I'm reading this thread is this rule doesn't apply - if you simply "intended" to take a drop out of the penalty area. That's what some of us have been working on here. 

Walk up to ball in penalty area. Take a half-hearted one-handed swing at it, it pops into water or pops up and down back into the schmutz.  "Doesn't count, I intended to just pop it up like I do with my wedges to take a drop outta here, over there.." (I don't have to tell anyone else my intent....)

Everyone there would look at me like I had two heads and tell me to sod off, "you took a swing at it". 

Follow the process. If you're saying that "but intent is all that matters" my half-hearted stroke can simply be cancelled before taking the lift "because I was just lifting it using my club."

Also, I'm not sure why theres a sudden lack of patience in this thread (*cough* Hawkeye77 *cough*), it's been replaced by rather caustic replies. Lost some big bets from the Masters this weekend? 🙂

Most of us posting/asking the other side are being treated with a higher level of derision than usually experienced here. What's up with that?

 

He was responding to a post which had nothing to do with what’s been discussed. 
 

Nobody said you can manufacture an intent to “cover” just walking up and making a stroke. In fact, that’s been covered several times. 
 

Cough all you want, you keep circling back with the same stuff. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, Imp said:

But the way I'm reading this thread is this rule doesn't apply - if you simply "intended" to take a drop out of the penalty area. That's what some of us have been working on here. 

Walk up to ball in penalty area. Take a half-hearted one-handed swing at it, it pops into water or pops up and down back into the schmutz.  "Doesn't count, I intended to just pop it up like I do with my wedges to take a drop outta here, over there.." (I don't have to tell anyone else my intent....)

Everyone there would look at me like I had two heads and tell me to sod off, "you took a swing at it". 

Follow the process. If you're saying that "but intent is all that matters" my half-hearted stroke can simply be cancelled before taking the lift "because I was just lifting it using my club."

Also, I'm not sure why theres a sudden lack of patience in this thread (*cough* Hawkeye77 *cough*), it's been replaced by rather caustic replies. Lost some big bets from the Masters this weekend? 🙂

Most of us posting/asking the other side are being treated with a higher level of derision than usually experienced here. What's up with that?

 

 

Could it be that the correct answers have been provided to you a multitude of times and you still want to misunderstand or deliberately distort them?

[Augster]

Wow. What happened in this thread? You can watch every shot on the masters app. It doesn’t show the flip into the water. Which is completely irrelevant. 
 

He’s in the PA. He hits it and it stays in the PA. He tries to play it again and it doesn’t move, it’s still in the PA stuck against, I’m guessing, some rocks. He points and says to his caddie something like, “I can’t play it now, I’ll have to drop back there”. Then, at that point, I’m guessing he takes his club and flips it into the water. 
 

Definition of stroke. It’s not a stroke. Do you really think he was trying to “play the ball” to record a “stroke” on the hole and it ended up going into the creek? The exact creek he was trying to flip it into? Or do you think he was practicing? 
 

Even though he doesn’t need to declare anything, by his actions alone it was pretty obvious he was going to take a drop outside the PA for his next stroke. 
 

Should he have picked up the ball and put it in his pocket? Probably. Should he have picked it up and throw it into the creek or woods? Maybe.  Perhaps he could get “nailed” for practicing. The only help in Rule 5.5a says this isn’t a practice stroke:

 

“Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy.”

 

What Horschel did isn’t any of that. 
 

Again, as said in a lot of posts above this one, it comes down to intent. A casual flip into the water after deciding he was going to take relief is likely acceptable. BUT, what if he addressed it and smashed the ball as hard as he can sending it deep into the woods? Is that practice? He had already decided/intended to take a drop outside the PA. 
 

His actions certainly were not a “stroke” during the play of a hole. But, if what he did isn’t practice, where is the line drawn and who decides if it is practice? Can he smash the ball out into the woods in anger before he takes his drop? Not casually. Just lines up, takes his address, a waggle or two, then kills it into the woods. Then proceeds to take a drop outside the PA. No penalty?

 

Sorry for the rambling. In before the lock. 

[Hawkeye77]

19 minutes ago, Augster said:

Wow. What happened in this thread? You can watch every shot on the masters app. It doesn’t show the flip into the water. Which is completely irrelevant. 
 

He’s in the PA. He hits it and it stays in the PA. He tries to play it again and it doesn’t move, it’s still in the PA stuck against, I’m guessing, some rocks. He points and says to his caddie something like, “I can’t play it now, I’ll have to drop back there”. Then, at that point, I’m guessing he takes his club and flips it into the water. 
 

Definition of stroke. It’s not a stroke. Do you really think he was trying to “play the ball” to record a “stroke” on the hole and it ended up going into the creek? The exact creek he was trying to flip it into? Or do you think he was practicing? 
 

Even though he doesn’t need to declare anything, by his actions alone it was pretty obvious he was going to take a drop outside the PA for his next stroke. 
 

Should he have picked up the ball and put it in his pocket? Probably. Should he have picked it up and throw it into the creek or woods? Maybe.  Perhaps he could get “nailed” for practicing. The only help in Rule 5.5a says this isn’t a practice stroke:

 

“Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy.”

 

What Horschel did isn’t any of that. 
 

Again, as said in a lot of posts above this one, it comes down to intent. A casual flip into the water after deciding he was going to take relief is likely acceptable. BUT, what if he addressed it and smashed the ball as hard as he can sending it deep into the woods? Is that practice? He had already decided/intended to take a drop outside the PA. 
 

His actions certainly were not a “stroke” during the play of a hole. But, if what he did isn’t practice, where is the line drawn and who decides if it is practice? Can he smash the ball out into the woods in anger before he takes his drop? Not casually. Just lines up, takes his address, a waggle or two, then kills it into the woods. Then proceeds to take a drop outside the PA. No penalty?

 

Sorry for the rambling. In before the lock. 

You can see him pick up the ball with his wedge after seemingly admitting to himself he needed to take relief by watching the Amen Corner video. 

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, Augster said:

His actions certainly were not a “stroke” during the play of a hole. But, if what he did isn’t practice, where is the line drawn and who decides if it is practice? Can he smash the ball out into the woods in anger before he takes his drop? Not casually.

 

There was a Decision on that as well. A player missing a putt hits the ball in anger. That was not ruled to be a stroke so the player got one penalty stroke and had to replace the ball.

[jobin]

@rogolf, and others.  I am only reading what OP has quoted above, from the USGA definition of 'stroke'. The USGA definition, if quoted correctly, certainly seems to say that accidentally striking the ball is NOT a stroke.

 

Must be a penalty for that foul, as per MRBEAN, above.

I know nothing of cheats, only that they do exist.

[oikos1]

12 hours ago, gulpeg said:

Time to defend myself I guess. I reread my post and I was/am posing questions, NOT making accusations. That's what it means when I said, "If I'm correct ..."

 

#1 I was trying to pose questions because I didn't know. If it came across as accusatory then I apologize. Not trying to "nail" anyone (and I like BH) perhaps I didn't write it correctly, but I find it interesting how quickly this wonderful community is to judge and ridicule someone.

 

#2 I guess I'm trying to figure out intent, which is what much of the rules take into consideration and are based upon.

 

Do you not have to tell your playing partner that you are taking an unplayable and therefore the resulting drop?

If when you do that, does the ball in question then become "dead" until put back into play? if not, then I believe making contact with the ball (flipping it) would be a stroke.

 

I was watching the Masters Live feed of featured groups prior to the TC broadcast. I rewound and rewatched a couple of time and as for "declaring" I am going by the announcer's commentary. The cameraman was directly behind him for the entire segment. His 2nd shot out of the water of the creek goes about 5-8ft into the junk. 3rd shot was even shorter, buried into the side of the creek below the fairway. From there he flips it back into water and walks away exiting the creek. the announcer's say he's taking an unplayable and he moves back to drop.  I guess I stand corrected (which is part of what I was asking) about putting a new ball in play after relief.

 

And maybe you don't have to tell your opponent you're taking relief of unplayable (I honestly don't know how official that has to be), but if you don't and they're not exactly paying attention, how will they know what your score was on the hole?

 

As for trying to get him disqualified, not my intent at all, just saying that if I am correct, wouldn't that be the resolution just like what happened to Wolff a couple days earlier?

Lol.  You hit the nail on the head.  That seems to be the majority of what this particular forum is all about.  And the rules of golf in general. 

 

Arguing another persons "intent". 

[Dim]

I was still looking for a a part where this 'decision' or 'intent' is mentioned in the rules for this situation. Good news: I think I found it:

 

Rule 9.4. basically states that a player always gets a penalty for lifting or moving the ball, but then mentions 4 exceptions.

 

Exception 1 describes the situation:

 

Exception - Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a rule that:
    - Allows to lift and then replace (not the case here)
    - Replace a moved ball (not the case here)
    - Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again to play a ball from a different place (So it seems this seems to be applicable here)

 

I think this is where the statement 'if you decide to take relief you can do whatever you want comes from'.

 

But then there is an interpretation for this rule:

9.4a/1 – Procedure When Player’s Ball Is Dislodged From Tree

 

Rule 9.4 applies wherever a ball in play is on the course. This includes when a ball is in a tree. However, when the player does not intend to play the ball as it lies but is trying only to identify it, or intends to retrieve it to use another Rule, the Exceptions to Rule 9.4b apply and there is no penalty. 

Looks to me the Tree is mentioned only as an example here. And here, the intention to move or lift the ball is mentioned. 

 

According to this interpretation deciding would be if the player intended to retrieve it to use another rule. So then it is not only the decision to apply the rule for taking relief is sufficient. The moving of the ball itself should be done to retrieve it or identify it.

 

This question was never asked to Horschel, but looking at the footage I got the impression he never had that intention.

 

To me, this Interpretation aligns with the exact gut feel that led me to this thread: the feeling that you should treat a ball in play with proper caution and not careless.

 

So to me, it is all clear now. But, call me an idiot, I do not align with the majority of conclusions drawn here.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Dim

[Mr. Bean]

46 minutes ago, Dim said:

1) So to me, it is all clear now.

2)But, call me an idiot, I do not align with the majority of conclusions drawn here.

1) Good.

2) I would not call you an idiot, not at all. But I would say you have still a lot to learn about the Rules of Golf. So stay on and learn, that is why all of us are here. To learn.

[Colin L]

58 minutes ago, Dim said:

I was still looking for a a part where this 'decision' or 'intent' is mentioned in the rules for this situation. Good news: I think I found it:

 

Rule 9.4. basically states that a player always gets a penalty for lifting or moving the ball, but then mentions 4 exceptions.

 

Exception 1 describes the situation:

 

Exception - Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a rule that:
    - Allows to lift and then replace (not the case here)
    - Replace a moved ball (not the case here)
    - Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again to play a ball from a different place.

 

 

Keep it simple whenever you can.  There's no need to go any further than that Exception, no need to go climbing trees! 

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, jobin said:

@rogolf, and others.  I am only reading what OP has quoted above, from the USGA definition of 'stroke'. The USGA definition, if quoted correctly, certainly seems to say that accidentally striking the ball is NOT a stroke.

 

Must be a penalty for that foul, as per MRBEAN, above.

I know nothing of cheats, only that they do exist.

I think you are referring to this from 10.1(a):  

 

"In making a stroke:

• The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball and must not push, scrape or scoop the ball.

• If the player’s club accidentally hits the ball more than once, there has been only one stroke and there is no penalty."

The second sentence refers, I believe, and is the change in the rules related to what was called a "double hit", think T.C. Chen.  

 

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but where the penalty situation comes in as one example, is where you are making a practice swing, not a "stroke" and cause the ball to move in the fairway.  You did it "accidentally" but you weren't making a stroke so Rule 10.1(a) doesn't apply.  I'll let you find the rules that do, I know I learn more when I look them up and try to work it out since I don't have them "at the ready" so to speak. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Dim]

10 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I think you are referring to this from 10.1(a):  

 

"In making a stroke:

• The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball and must not push, scrape or scoop the ball.

• If the player’s club accidentally hits the ball more than once, there has been only one stroke and there is no penalty."

The second sentence refers, I believe, and is the change in the rules related to what was called a "double hit", think T.C. Chen.  

 

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but where the penalty situation comes in as one example, is where you are making a practice swing, not a "stroke" and cause the ball to move in the fairway.  You did it "accidentally" but you weren't making a stroke so Rule 10.1(a) doesn't apply.  I'll let you find the rules that do, I know I learn more when I look them up and try to work it out since I don't have them "at the ready" so to speak. 

The penalty is for when a practice swing causes the ball to move for any ball in play. Exception 3 in 9.4.b excludes balls on the green. And of course a (first) ball on the T is not in play so no penalty for moving that with a practice swing.

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, Dim said:

The penalty is for when a practice swing causes the ball to move for any ball in play. Exception 3 in 9.4.b excludes balls on the green. And of course a (first) ball on the T is not in play so no penalty for moving that with a practice swing.

It was an example for @jobin's benefit given his earlier post, which posited moving the ball in a fairway, and his resulting question and limited to the situation as stated.

 

You are correct, there are exceptions which, in part, depend on the area of the course where the ball is caused to move.

[Colin L]

16 minutes ago, Dim said:

The penalty is for when a practice swing causes the ball to move for any ball in play. Exception 3 in 9.4.b excludes balls on the green. And of course a (first) ball on the T is not in play so no penalty for moving that with a practice swing.

 

👍

[Dim]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:32 PM, Dim said:

Interpretation 9.4b/4 handless ‘reasonable actions’ that could be applicable here if he did not ‘lift’ but ‘move’ the ball.

 

To make it even more clear / expand on this:

 

9.4 Ball Lifted or Moved by Player

b. Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing It to Move

If the player lifts or deliberately touches his or her ball at rest or causes it to move, the player gets one penalty stroke.

But there are four exceptions:

 

Exception 4 – Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move anywhere except on the putting green while taking reasonable actions to:

 

- Take relief under a Rule, including in determining....

 

And then  the interpretation for reasonable actions

 

9.4b/5 – Meaning of “Reasonable Actions” in Rule 9.4b Exception 4

 

In other situations, Exception 4 to Rule 9.4 does not apply because the player’s actions are not “reasonable”.

These include when:

• The player approaches his or her ball to take relief and kicks a rock in frustration that accidentally strikes and moves the ball.

• The player throws a club down into the relief area in preparing to measure, and the club accidentally strikes and moves the ball.

• The player lifts a bunker rake or his or her club and throws it out of a bunker. The rake or club falls back into the bunker, striking and moving the ball.

 

The statement: once you decide to take relief from the penalty area you can do with the ball whatever you want is very much not true.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Dim