Dr Kwon

[MPStrat]

13 minutes ago, Forged4life said:

Me neither as that is something I have to monitor. Feeling that right scap going back but not the whole torso has been lightbulb for me but can do it incorrectly and lean 

 Very common thing. Sometimes comes with tucking the pelvis underneath and losing the tush line in the backswing  

[Forged4life]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

 Very common thing. Sometimes comes with tucking the pelvis underneath and losing the tush line in the backswing  

How’d you know!? Lol 

[glk]

1 hour ago, Golfbeat said:

 

But he does teach it though.

The full qoute

 

i rarely teach extension because generally speaking people left tilt and extend too early and wreck their arm structure.   
 

later he tells him that he does proper extension not fake extension.

 
to me he doesn’t teach extension early in takeaway which fits exactly what he is doing in this lesson - stay in flexion thru p2 to help shift pressure early then rotate and extend.    I think he teaches extension a lot cause his players all do it - they don’t do it early

 

certainly could be misreading this but I’ve seen folks here and in an amg lesson do exactly what Dana is talking about - too much left tilt early to raise arms

 

added amg lesson

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by glk

[Zitlow]

7 hours ago, wantstonotsuck said:

For those asking about Dr. Kwon’s advice as to what the active wrist movements should be, here are his replies to an Instagram comment asking about the subject.

 

What, no motorcycle move?

 

[Forged4life]

50 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

What, no motorcycle move?

 

Love the motorcycle move. Changed my ball striking. Chicken and the egg 

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, glk said:

The full qoute

 

i rarely teach extension because generally speaking people left tilt and extend too early and wreck their arm structure.   
 

later he tells him that he does proper extension not fake extension.

 
to me he doesn’t teach extension early in takeaway which fits exactly what he is doing in this lesson - stay in flexion thru p2 to help shift pressure early then rotate and extend.    I think he teaches extension a lot cause his players all do it - they don’t do it early

 

certainly could be misreading this but I’ve seen folks here and in an amg lesson do exactly what Dana is talking about - too much left tilt early to raise arms

 

added amg lesson

 

I think this is a common fault that isn't talked that much... people are told to keep primary tilt (forward bend) since they usually lose it (natural move of an inside takeaway and leveling shoulders) - so they keep that primary tilt by 'heaving' (letting their lead shoulder 'dive forward and in')... which causes a series of no-no -> maxed out trail hip early -> disconnected arms raising -> pelvis creeping closer to the ball -> losing secondary tilt (upper body towards target and hips back)... and the ensuing lovely needed compensations to try and hit the ball: EE / stall / flip

Edited January 4, 2022 by MtlJayMan

[Golfbeat]

4 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I think this is a common fault that isn't talked that much... people are told to keep primary tilt (forward bend) since they usually lose it (natural move of an inside takeaway and leveling shoulders) - so they keep that primary tilt by 'heaving' (letting their lead shoulder 'dive in')... which causes a series of no-no -> maxed out trail hip early -> disconnected arms raising -> pelvis creeping closer to the ball -> losing secondary tilt (upper body towards target and hips back)... and the ensuing lovely needed compensations to try and hit the ball: EE / stall / flip

 

The Dr Kwon drills definitely seem to help with that by making the pivot more natural.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, Golfbeat said:

 

The Dr Kwon drills definitely seem to help with that by making the pivot more natural.

Correct - it is very diffcult to heave when you initiate the backswing with the drill that has your club in front of you (target side)... the shear momentum going back, shift, loads in a proper way... while starting from a static position and wanting for the trail side to 'shift, load around' it is easy to fake it by heaving

[Nels55]

Here is what I remember for my subscription to AMG+:

 

In AMG+ I learned that the average tour pro's spine tilts towards the target 2 or 3 degrees around lead arm parallel to the ground in the backswing.  One of their pros tilts 5 or 6 degrees of tilt which they believe is good.  The way I see it is that this has to happen if there is an initial shift into the trail leg and the head stays still.  AMG does mention something to the effect that you cannot necessarily see the tilt on video unless you know what you are looking for.  They measure spine tilt on the GEARS system or whatever system that they are using now.

 

The shift back to the lead foot starts around the time of max lean or maybe slightly before that as the entire spine is moving towards the target and the lean goes away when the hips shift forward.  

 

This movement is what I see in Kwon's teaching.  It is built into the up and down and back and through.  

 

It is all one unified movement start to finish which is a good thing.

[PracticeSwinger]

23 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Here is what I remember for my subscription to AMG+:

 

In AMG+ I learned that the average tour pro's spine tilts towards the target 2 or 3 degrees around lead arm parallel to the ground in the backswing.  One of their pros tilts 5 or 6 degrees of tilt which they believe is good.  The way I see it is that this has to happen if there is an initial shift into the trail leg and the head stays still.  AMG does mention something to the effect that you cannot necessarily see the tilt on video unless you know what you are looking for.  They measure spine tilt on the GEARS system or whatever system that they are using now.

 

The shift back to the lead foot starts around the time of max lean or maybe slightly before that as the entire spine is moving towards the target and the lean goes away when the hips shift forward.  

Not a AMG+ subscriber, so can't comment on these... but I'd say they confirm what everyone has been saying here for a few pages... you don't want to lose your secondary tilt (2-3 degrees is nearly straight up); when you see amateurs heaving they would exibit 15-20 degrees I'd say (from faking turn and swaying) and it's very difficult for low point control when you have to 'lose' that 15-20 degrees in transition and in the downswing to regain secondary tilt (only way to achieve this is with EE and sliding)

[Haroputt]

Watch the latest BBG “kick start”.
i use the horizontal swing drill a lot on the course with that kick 

That “swish” sound happens more after ball 

contact.  There is debate whether they swish should be at the ball or just before the ball. For me I lose clubhead speed if I bring the “swish” back behind the ball rather than after the ball. 

[rondo01]

Kwon Talks Torque. If you don’t watch until the very end: this is Grant Waite’s swing.

 

gotta say, it’s pretty uncanny how each successive video seems to address exactly where the discussion has naturally flowed to. 👀

Edited January 4, 2022 by rondo01

[Nels55]

Here is data collection for Grant Waite:

 

[MPStrat]

This part is worth discussion. Cliffs notes are that the 2 main contributions in terms of speed in a golf swing are effort and the length of the moment arm. Kwon says the golfer on the left creates a longer moment arm, more ground reaction force and all things equal will create more speed.

 

[MPStrat]

I present 2 golfers who were the longest in the world at one time. Sadlowski being possibly the smallest in stature long drive champion of all time at a mere 5’10” 170 lbs. My eyes could be deceiving me but they both appear to be closer to the model on the right in Dr Kwon’s diagram. To be clear I’m only sharing this for purposes of discussion and debate, not to suggest Dr Kwon is incorrect. 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by MPStrat

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

My eyes could be deceiving me but they both appear to be closer to the model on the right in Dr Kwon’s diagram.

Your eyes are deceiving but so are camera angles. Sandowski looks like model on left in terms of spine angle to ground. Model on right looks like sliding & swaying duffer.

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

Your eyes are deceiving but so are camera angles. Sandowski looks like model on left in terms of spine angle to ground. Model on right looks like sliding & swaying duffer.

sadlowski’s camera angle is acceptable. I will give you Monte’s camera angle makes it look more exaggerated but maybe he can comment on whether or not he had tilt away from the target at p4. I would disagree that Sadlowski looks more like the model on the left. I could be wrong. 

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

Sadlowski looks more like the model on the left.

His spine is perpendicular to ground. Model on right has over 10 degrees of tilt.

[Nard_S]

I have to re watch this torque video because he's speaking of it in a somewhat abstract way. 

[rondo01]

Might be worth noting that a player can exhibit suboptimal movement and still be world class. Even if Sadlowski’s angle is right and he’s bent away from target, it might only indicate that he could have had more in the tank to give 🤷‍♂️

Edited January 5, 2022 by rondo01

[Forged4life]

To me their body positions look like the left with just more wrist c0ck. 

[Nard_S]

Sort of hard to discredit a college professor with fancy motion capture equipment but this is WRX after all.

[MPStrat]

Just now, Nard_S said:

Sort of hard to discredit a college professor with fancy motion capture equipment but this is WRX after all.

it’s a discussion for those who don’t have fancy motion capture equipment. Also, there are professors with fancy motion capture equipment and then there is practical application. Kwon has made some claims that are debatable in the real world. I think it’s fair to discuss them. Or at least attempt to get a full understanding. 

[MPStrat]

9 minutes ago, rondo01 said:

Might be worth noting that a player can exhibit suboptimal movement and still be world class. Even if Sadlowski’s angle is right and he’s bent away from target, he could have had more in the tank to give 🤷‍♂️

this is fair, although I find it hard to imagine someone at that size having suboptimal movements 

[MPStrat]

14 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

His spine is perpendicular to ground. Model on right has over 10 degrees of tilt.

is 10 degrees of tilt outrageous for a long drive competitor?

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

is 10 degrees of tilt outrageous for a long drive competitor?

Sandowski's spine matches left model a lot more than right. It's not even close.

[Nard_S]

21 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Kwon has made some claims that are debatable in the real world.

Actually, I find almost everything he says does nothing but validate many other educated opinions on the swing. 

 

Been listening to some criticisms here and much of them are based off hearing what he says on how something should feel which different from how something is. "Feel is not real" yet he teaches by those things. For instance, he spoke of "turning hip over opposite leg" which is just an intent, you cannot do it. It would be debatable if he thought it was doable, but he said it was just an intent.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Nard_S

[Nard_S]

I will say I find his minimization of arm/hand triangle, the role of wrists too to be a bit glib. Think he can say the same thing without being as dismissive. "Wrists are 5%", I get the annoyance of that.

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Actually, I find almost everything he says to do nothing but validate many other educated opinions on the swing. 

Dude I’m here to learn and discuss not pretend to be smarter than Dr Kwon on the internet. Apparently Dr Kwon has the perfect pattern. We must follow the science. Where have I heard that before? 

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

Dude I’m here to learn and discuss not pretend to be smarter than Dr Kwon on the internet

 Me too. I'm just discussing.