Dr Kwon

[golfarb1]

3 hours ago, Billywhizz said:

 

I think the use of the obliques is not being mentioned enough in the downswing and that will surely help in the proper sequencing and use of the body from the ground up and limit the early overuse of the shoulder girdle muscles.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the above video and dynamic illustration . The obliques are integral to rotation and should be targeted in workouts for those who desire more distance 

While there are a few exceptions , most golf pros are ignorant of basic anatomy and kinesiology . 

[Golfbeat]

Never too old or too good to want to improve! 74 year old 4 hcp! Very inspirational.

 

 

 

[leekgolf]

Here's a video of Dr. Kwon working with a 61 year old guy who might represent a large group of Golfwrx posters/readers. Dr. Kwan goes into several versions of the same things he has shown in other videos, but they give me a least a different understanding, especially of the re-centering move.

 

 

Early in the session, he talks about the action of the right leg as pushing down and away. When I tried this, it automatically moved my center of pressure forward toward the target, then it was just a matter of pushing my front leg down to trigger the forward swing.

 

Well at least for me. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by leekgolf

[Golfbeat]

7 minutes ago, leekgolf said:

Here's a video of Dr. Kwon working with a 61 year old guy who might represent a large group of Golfwrx posters/readers. Dr. Kwan goes into several versions of the same things he has shown in other videos, but they give me a least a different understanding, especially of the re-centering move.

 

 

Early in the session, he talks about the action of the right leg as pushing down and away. When I tried this, it automatically moved my center of pressure forward toward the target, then it was just a matter of pushing my front leg down to trigger the forward swing.

 

Well at least for me. 

 

 

This video explain it well also.

 

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

6 minutes ago, leekgolf said:

Here's a video of Dr. Kwon working with a 61 year old guy who might represent a large group of Golfwrx posters/readers. Dr. Kwan goes into several versions of the same things he has shown in other videos, but they give me a least a different understanding, especially of the re-centering move.

 

 

Early in the session, he talks about the action of the right leg as pushing down and away. When I tried this, it automatically moved my center of pressure forward toward the target, then it was just a matter of pushing my front leg down to trigger the forward swing.

 

Well at least for me. 

 

Would like to hear from those who have experience with the move and are actually open at impact. It seems to me that 99% of golfers won't be able to get open, one of the most common issues is people sliding their hips on the downswing and then pushing lead leg standing straight up. All this talk of drift etc. when most already drift too much. 

 

The people who slide too much which is most golfers would more than likely have to feel the 1 inch shift off the ball and then the hips staying back on the downswing if they have any hope of not sliding and getting open. Even feeling that the hips would definitely shift forward.

 

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

Would like to hear from those who have experience with the move and are actually open at impact. It seems to me that 99% of golfers won't be able to get open, one of the most common issues is people sliding their hips on the downswing and then pushing lead leg standing straight up. All this talk of drift etc. when most already drift too much. 

 

The people who slide too much which is most golfers would more than likely have to feel the 1 inch shift off the ball and then the hips staying back on the downswing if they have any hope of not sliding and getting open. Even feeling that the hips would definitely shift forward.

 

Sort of. Though hips staying back will prohibit their ability to rotate open. The correct drift happens with the tailbone looking at and moving toward the target, and the COM has to be forward to get open. Most golfer I see are either trying to spin their hips open with the COM staying back or, as you're referring to, are sliding their COM forward but with the pelvis square to the target line and very little hip flexion. They never pulled the trail hip away, loaded up, and moved the tailbone out and around.

[MK7Golf21]

7 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Sort of. Though hips staying back will prohibit their ability to rotate open. The correct drift happens with the tailbone looking at and moving toward the target, and the COM has to be forward to get open. Most golfer I see are either trying to spin their hips open with the COM staying back or, as you're referring to, are sliding their COM forward but with the pelvis square to the target line and very little hip flexion. They never pulled the trail hip away, loaded up, and moved the tailbone out and around.

 

that is kind of what I'm getting at, feel and real are different. The person who slides too much which is so many golfers needs to feel the hip staying back and rotating, in reality the hips will shift forward several inches and weight will be forward.

 

All this talk of shift towards the target while being closed I think is going to make people slide and post up even more. I'm open to discussion on it, I would like to hear from people who it actually helped open up doing the move. Not just a perceived opening up but actually seeing it on film etc.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Redjeep83

[MK7Golf21]

28 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Sort of. Though hips staying back will prohibit their ability to rotate open. The correct drift happens with the tailbone looking at and moving toward the target, and the COM has to be forward to get open. Most golfer I see are either trying to spin their hips open with the COM staying back or, as you're referring to, are sliding their COM forward but with the pelvis square to the target line and very little hip flexion. They never pulled the trail hip away, loaded up, and moved the tailbone out and around.

 

explain the difference to me of what most do that slide/don't open vs. what you are describing? Not really sure I understand what you are saying is the difference.

[Nels55]

21 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

that is kind of what I'm getting at, feel and real are different. The person who slides too much which is so many golfers needs to feel the hip staying back and rotating, in reality the hips will shift forward several inches and weight will be forward.

 

All this talk of shift towards the target while being closed I think is going to make people slide and post up even more. I'm open to discussion on it, I would like to hear from people who it actually helped open up doing the move. Not just a perceived opening up but actually seeing it on film etc.

It is not possible to slide too far and kick the lead foot into the ground.  Can't happen, LOL I know this very well as I tend to slide out over my lead foot when I swing incorrectly which is a source of immediate hip pain for me.  Kwon's students do not slide the hips too far and if they do he corrects the movement right away. 

 

It is easy for me to watch the videos of Kwon teaching and apply a correction for a problem that I don't have LOL.

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

It is not possible to slide too far and kick the lead foot into the ground.  Can't happen, LOL I know this very well as I tend to slide out over my lead foot when I swing incorrectly which is a source of immediate hip pain for me.  Kwon's students do not slide the hips too far and if they do he corrects the movement right away. 

 

It is easy for me to watch the videos of Kwon teaching and apply a correction for a problem that I don't have LOL.

 

yea, that is a good point and remember seeing that in some videos in the past, so the pushing toward head is creating the hip rotation? On the backswing shift and push away towards head which creates the turn and recenter, then on downswing it's the lead foot just pushing away back towards the head really hard that creates the  downswing rotation? 

 

glk, chime in here please. He seems pretty well versed on this.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Redjeep83

[glk]

36 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

yea, that is a good point and remember seeing that in some videos in the past, so the pushing toward head is creating the hip rotation? On the backswing shift and push away towards head which creates the turn and recenter, then on downswing it's the lead foot just pushing away back towards the head really hard that creates the  downswing rotation? 

 

glk, chime in here please. He seems pretty well versed on this.

On downswing lead foot pushes toward target line and trail away.  Opposite in backswing.    
 

Can see the motion on ice clearly - he was being careful on backswing but not so much the downswing.  

 

[johnrobison]

4 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

explain the difference to me of what most do that slide/don't open vs. what you are describing? Not really sure I understand what you are saying is the difference.

A couple of common poor moves are just rocking the hips back and forth, and turning the lead hip into the ball and then bumping it toward the target. A proper shift has the trail hip moving away from the ball and then the COM moving toward the target (the drift). It's not drifting too much that inhibits the rotation - it's drifting incorrectly.

[golfarb1]

9 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

 

 

This video explain it well also.

 

 

 

Most golfers need to rotate their heads in order to make a full shoulder turn. This hardly a new discovery with the new technology. Jack Nicklaus prerotated his head at setup over 60 years ago

Edited March 1, 2022 by golfarb1

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, johnrobison said:

A couple of common poor moves are just rocking the hips back and forth, and turning the lead hip into the ball and then bumping it toward the target. A proper shift has the trail hip moving away from the ball and then the COM moving toward the target (the drift). It's not drifting too much that inhibits the rotation - it's drifting incorrectly.

 

I agree rocking hips back and forth but decent golfers don't do this.

 

The trail hip moves back and lead hip moves forward in most golfers that I see, even average golfers. You have to be careful watching AMG videos that say one way is right and will fix everything. You have guys like Adam Scott from DTL his rear hip stays on the tush line and doesn't crash through it on the backswing, Tiger the same way etc. could go down the line of amazing ball strikers but AMG says Pro's crash their right hip through the tush line on the backswing. I would say the vast majority don't but Dustin Johnson is one player who does.

 

Also, from face on players like Scott, Tiger in 2000, etc. their trail hip is nearly on the same line as it was at address and don't break away from it until transition. They have a small bump to the right and the right hips ends up at the same point it was at address and then the break away happens during transition. It's pretty common on tour in some of the greatest balllstrikers ever.

 

I'm just saying we have to be careful saying there is one way to move the hips that will make you rotate and not EE. 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Redjeep83

[johnrobison]

I was't referring to any AMG video or saying that good players "crash" their trail hip through the tush line. But there is a pretty common difference between good and poor players in how the lead hip moves relative to the trail hip, which inhibits their ability to move COM forward and rotate open. Many tend to move considerably more toward the ball and away from the target throughout the backswing, as opposed to better players, regardless of what's happening on the tush line from DTL. From there, telling them to just stay back so they can get open would be counterproductive.

[MK7Golf21]

“Many tend to move considerably more toward the ball and away from the target throughout the backswing, as opposed to better players,”

 

This is pretty much all you said in the last post. Are you saying the lead knee going too far in on backswing vs straight out toward lead foot?

Edited March 1, 2022 by Redjeep83

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, johnrobison said:

I was't referring to any AMG video or saying that good players "crash" their trail hip through the tush line. But there is a pretty common difference between good and poor players in how the lead hip moves relative to the trail hip, which inhibits their ability to move COM forward and rotate open. Many tend to move considerably more toward the ball and away from the target throughout the backswing, as opposed to better players, regardless of what's happening on the tush line from DTL. From there, telling them to just stay back so they can get open would be counterproductive.

 

I haven't seen Kwon mention in any of the lessons shown that the lead knee is going in to much and needs to go out towards the toes. He just makes sure they are getting a full mature backswing. If this was a huge problem to him then I think we would see it in most his lessons.

[glk]

6 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

I haven't seen Kwon mention in any of the lessons shown that the lead knee is going in to much and needs to go out towards the toes. He just makes sure they are getting a full mature backswing. If this was a huge problem to him then I think we would see it in most his lessons.

 

Lead knee can go toward toes and person can still bring their pelvis toward the ball.

have to get the trail hip moving back and up - using door analogy, backswing  the hinge is the lead and handle is the trail - swing the door open.    Flip it somewhat in the downswing.    Want to load the trail glute.    And do the butt wipe during p3-p5.

 

iteach’s physio ball drill. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJyOl4llkOz/
monte has one where you wipe the wall behind you.   No butt wipe and likely pelvis moved toward the ball on backswing.

 

I think kwon gets folks doing the knee work well via his drills such as kettle bell and the band pull.  He often assists the student from behind in the motion and insures the trail side gets high - which is a great intent - don’t need to do Kyle Berkshire high - reach for the sky with the trail shoulder.

Edited March 1, 2022 by glk

[johnrobison]

Ya. What glk said.

 

I wasn't talking about knee movement - just how the pelvis works in sequence and how it allows or inhibits good rotation. All I'm saying is that telling people to keep their hips back on the downswing isn't going to help them get open. They need to get forward but they have to get forward correctly - most don't.

[Duffer Mark]

I see Kwon as well as the AMG guys teaching to shift (and even lean a little) onto the front leg during the backswing. Kwon then makes it look easy by throwing the arms - just letting them go. When I try this shift I seem to always get my upper body too far forward. 
 

One step forward and two steps back in this game gets tiring. Maybe I need advice on how to quit the game and just walk away. 

[glk]

18 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

I see Kwon as well as the AMG guys teaching to shift (and even lean a little) onto the front leg during the backswing. Kwon then makes it look easy by throwing the arms - just letting them go. When I try this shift I seem to always get my upper body too far forward. 
 

One step forward and two steps back in this game gets tiring. Maybe I need advice on how to quit the game and just walk away. 

Find a corner wall at your place.  Set up to the left of the wall with foot just against or a little away - make a swing without a club.    You slide you hit the wall with your back - depending on how far away from wall you will not touch or just touch it as you let it go.

[Nels55]

15 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

I see Kwon as well as the AMG guys teaching to shift (and even lean a little) onto the front leg during the backswing. Kwon then makes it look easy by throwing the arms - just letting them go. When I try this shift I seem to always get my upper body too far forward. 
 

One step forward and two steps back in this game gets tiring. Maybe I need advice on how to quit the game and just walk away. 

The shift or recentering happens from about lead arm parallel in the backswing.  LOL I spent a lot of time getting my hips too far forward which may be similar to what you are doing?  The shift is fairly small and by doing a lot of rope drills focusing on the recentering and then pushing or kicking the lead foot to keep from going too far I seem to be improving in that area.  I also combine with a lot of the step drills but I think that the rope drill is really good for this part of it.  The weight shifts forward into the lead leg and then the movement is arrested by the lead side muscles pushing back.  LOL that's the way it seems to work for me anyway... 

 

To quit the game I would advise that anytime you are tempted to participate in anything golf related simply tell yourself that you don't golf and get busy with something else.  Don't participate right now right here.  Quit in the moment...

[MK7Golf21]

39 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Ya. What glk said.

 

I wasn't talking about knee movement - just how the pelvis works in sequence and how it allows or inhibits good rotation. All I'm saying is that telling people to keep their hips back on the downswing isn't going to help them get open. They need to get forward but they have to get forward correctly - most don't.

 

yep, telling them to keep their hips back on the downswing isn't going to help them get open, I agree. Also, telling them to do correct hip movements on the backswing isn't going to keep them from EE and getting open. It's a step in the right direction but most people can never do it with how fast the downswing is.

 

2 hours ago, glk said:

Lead knee can go toward toes and person can still bring their pelvis toward the ball.

have to get the trail hip moving back and up - using door analogy, backswing  the hinge is the lead and handle is the trail - swing the door open.    Flip it somewhat in the downswing.    Want to load the trail glute.    And do the butt wipe during p3-p5.

 

iteach’s physio ball drill. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJyOl4llkOz/
monte has one where you wipe the wall behind you.   No butt wipe and likely pelvis moved toward the ball on backswing.

 

I think kwon gets folks doing the knee work well via his drills such as kettle bell and the band pull.  He often assists the student from behind in the motion and insures the trail side gets high - which is a great intent - don’t need to do Kyle Berkshire high - reach for the sky with the trail shoulder.

 

What you guys are explaining is EE on the backswing I think. If you are saying the lead hip doesn't move forward as the hinge and the trail hip moves deeper as the door handle then trail hip will crash through the tush line, right? I just don't see that in many tour pro's. Some do like DJ but so many awesome swings don't.

 

Either way doing correct hip movements on the backswing doesn't guarantee at all that you won't EE and be open on the downswing. People work on it their entire life and never get it and they have proper movements on the backswing.

 

I think with Kwon he isn't too concerned with this type of positional stuff, he is more concerned with the sequence of the body. You can tell by looking at his players swings at the end of the session when he says they have got it and changed their motion. They still are square at impact and EE. They have huge swings, shaft across the line etc. I'm not saying this is a bad thing either, just an observation. 

 

Here are just two screenshots I grabbed quickly as the "after" swings and keep in mind these are swings without a ball too. I can look like 2000 Tiger woods or Hogan in a swing without a ball.

 

 

 

[johnrobison]

46 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

telling them to do correct hip movements on the backswing isn't going to keep them from EE and getting open. 

 

doing correct hip movements on the backswing doesn't guarantee at all that you won't EE and be open on the downswing.

 

 

 

 

 

I never said that it would. I said that poor pelvis movement in the backswing will inhibit the ability to rotate correctly in the downswing.

 

You're putting up strawmen. I simply responded to your original assertion - that people slide too much and, so, should keep their hips back to get open. I'm saying that's not the fix and that first they need to learn how to move the pelvis correctly.

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

I never said that it would. I said that poor pelvis movement in the backswing will inhibit the ability to rotate correctly in the downswing.

 

You're putting up strawmen. I simply responded to your original assertion - that people slide too much and, so, should keep their hips back to get open. I'm saying that's not the fix and that first they need to learn how to move the pelvis correctly.

well it’s both, it’s not black and white. It’s both the hips working correctly on the backswing and the downswing. I wasn’t talking about backswing hip movements, I was talking specifically about too much slide. You can move the hips in the backswing correctly and slide, I see it all the time. 
 

And the “feeling” of keeping the hips back is absolutely a fix for sliding, it’s not the only one but I have found it’s a good one. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Redjeep83

[leekgolf]

4 hours ago, glk said:

 

 

iteach’s physio ball drill. https://www.instagram.com/p/CJyOl4llkOz/
monte has one where you wipe the wall behind you.   No butt wipe and likely pelvis moved toward the ball on backswing.

 

 

The hardest part about iteach's Swiss ball drill is finding a driving range with a wall. I've taken a some online lessons from Dan and this is one of the drills he assigned to me. I've tried using a tree trunk, an outside wall at home with foam practice balls which ended up on my roof the first time I hit them, and using a bench at the driving range at another place. I've yet to find a place to do this drill. 

 

I do think Dr. Kwon's Stage 1 and 2 might address the same thing, mainly keeping the trail hip back and pivoting around the lead hip. I've found that for me, driving the lead leg into the ground makes the hip really open up while the trail hip stays back - voila - no EE! 

[Hilts1969]

9 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

I see Kwon as well as the AMG guys teaching to shift (and even lean a little) onto the front leg during the backswing. Kwon then makes it look easy by throwing the arms - just letting them go. When I try this shift I seem to always get my upper body too far forward. 
 

One step forward and two steps back in this game gets tiring. Maybe I need advice on how to quit the game and just walk away. 

 

I said early on in this thread the danger, and there is always a danger, is that people will become huge swayers and reverse pivot and/or get their upper body and head too far forward. You can add in flat shoulders and too little chest flexion in the downswing as well.

 

The old adage take a couple of pills not the whole bottle applies as always. 

 

For someone who is normally static then they may need to feel large movements both ways. Those who move a little or a lot anyhow could get into some trouble. Front on video or mirror work is vital. 

 

 

[glk]

10 hours ago, leekgolf said:

The hardest part about iteach's Swiss ball drill is finding a driving range with a wall. I've taken a some online lessons from Dan and this is one of the drills he assigned to me. I've tried using a tree trunk, an outside wall at home with foam practice balls which ended up on my roof the first time I hit them, and using a bench at the driving range at another place. I've yet to find a place to do this drill. 

 

I do think Dr. Kwon's Stage 1 and 2 might address the same thing, mainly keeping the trail hip back and pivoting around the lead hip. I've found that for me, driving the lead leg into the ground makes the hip really open up while the trail hip stays back - voila - no EE! 

I am lucky to have a wall inside our great room where i can swing with a physio ball but even then I don't necessarily use a club - and that's what i'd recommend - find any wall inside and do the drill without a club - can fold arms or swing them.      I know Dan had a clip where Suri was using a chair to prop up the ball but . . .

[glk]

13 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

yep, telling them to keep their hips back on the downswing isn't going to help them get open, I agree. Also, telling them to do correct hip movements on the backswing isn't going to keep them from EE and getting open. It's a step in the right direction but most people can never do it with how fast the downswing is.

 

 

What you guys are explaining is EE on the backswing I think. If you are saying the lead hip doesn't move forward as the hinge and the trail hip moves deeper as the door handle then trail hip will crash through the tush line, right? I just don't see that in many tour pro's. Some do like DJ but so many awesome swings don't.

 

Either way doing correct hip movements on the backswing doesn't guarantee at all that you won't EE and be open on the downswing. People work on it their entire life and never get it and they have proper movements on the backswing.

 

I think with Kwon he isn't too concerned with this type of positional stuff, he is more concerned with the sequence of the body. You can tell by looking at his players swings at the end of the session when he says they have got it and changed their motion. They still are square at impact and EE. They have huge swings, shaft across the line etc. I'm not saying this is a bad thing either, just an observation. 

 

Here are just two screenshots I grabbed quickly as the "after" swings and keep in mind these are swings without a ball too. I can look like 2000 Tiger woods or Hogan in a swing without a ball.

 

 

 

Lead hip is going to move forward some - and the trail back - this crash thru the tush line is not much of a crash - an inch or so - like most things in golf there is individual variability - i haven't seen a good 2d angle of most pros to make some statement on all do or don't or how much - AMG has seen 3D measurements of hundreds of elite swing - think they can speak to it much better and never seen them mention a specific number but clearly they have show clips of the butt wipe happening - to me, fair to say the vast majority of pros do not move the pelvis toward the ball in the backswing.

 

Agree that moving hips well on backswing doesn't guarantee no EE.     It will stop EE associated with moving pelvis toward ball in the backswing - but what the person does in transition can lead to EE.   I'm not surprised that folks that see Kwon who have EE in their motions aren't cured from his drill - especially within an hour or so session - he may address it if the person has the whole 3D treatment like the LPGA hopeful from Be Better Golf or other competitive golfers - seems like for the typical amateur that shows up for a session they mainly work on the drills.

 

The PGA has and has had plenty of winners and multiple winners that have some level of EE - Na, Phil, Jack, Senden, Day, Rickie, Casey, and everyone's tour poster child for EE - Brian Gay.     Interesting to note that Gay in prep for a senior tour run was working on his force movement - and increased his swing speed to  112+ from 105 (Scott Lynn talked about this below) - then he went out an won again on Tour.      And he still EE's.

 

Na - at 20* open - torso,and hips at impact.

 

Scott Lynn - Brian Gay - improvement horizontal braking and gained speed.    I speculate that a lot of folks that slide create more horizontal force than they can stop - for numerous reasons - even if you attempt the shurn motion.    I've seen Scott on Berkshire and one thing that separates Kyle beside the amount of horizontal force he creates is his ability to effectively brake that force.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/superspeedgolf/videos/how-does-the-ability-to-post-up-or-stabilize-the-lead-side-at-impact-influence-c/274193853715367/

Edited March 2, 2022 by glk

[johnrobison]

11 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

well it’s both, it’s not black and white. It’s both the hips working correctly on the backswing and the downswing. I wasn’t talking about backswing hip movements, I was talking specifically about too much slide. You can move the hips in the backswing correctly and slide, I see it all the time. 
 

And the “feeling” of keeping the hips back is absolutely a fix for sliding, it’s not the only one but I have found it’s a good one. 

Goalposts are moving around a bit here... Your original comment was equating drifting and sliding - that many players trying to drift and get open are already sliding too much. They're not the same thing which is what I was pointing out. The drift has to happen with correct pelvis action, otherwise rotation is inhibited. And, yes, the backswing rotation can be good followed by incorrect pelvic motion in the downswing. I never said that a good backswing will guarantee a good downswing.

 

Can you provide an example of a good impact position from a player who has COM staying back with hips open?

Edited March 2, 2022 by johnrobison