Dr Kwon

[Soloman1]

Yes, some movements are active and some are reactive. There are others studies with a higher n number.

 

The problem with these studies (and anything using averages) is that you shouldn’t chase averages.

 

If we choose arbitrary values like this and they produce similar results:

 

A = 2

B = 3

C = 6

D = 8

 

The average is 4.75, but none of the subjects had that value.

 

Individual physiology is why it’s messy, regardless of the sarcastic little toe crowd.

[mocokid]

On 3/25/2022 at 6:30 AM, Duffer Mark said:

The Crane video was good. My question is about the lead leg action as the swing transitions from backswing to downswing. 
 

When Kwon says kick the ground, does that mean pushing straight up with the lead leg or…?

You have to engage the core in the trigger and get the shaft to parallel with ground.  Crane at first is doing a small hand move as his trigger which kwon corrects repeatedly.  Then turn right shoulder and hip to target in the back swing. Left knee has to move externally, in forward swing and push off while shoulders feel closed.  That's the hard part for me, I drift too far left and get stuck.  I made a stage 1 swing then hit a ball for a full bucket on the range today and was amazed.  Contact and flight improved over time on a very windy FL day.  The drill is similar to toski and love drills in their book.  Also my Manny Dela Torre instructor had me hit balls with stage 3.  Great stuff!

Edited March 31, 2022 by mocokid

[Fuscinator]

Sorry to arrive late on the subject, but are there any videos of Dr. Kwon hitting balls? Thx.

[Nels55]

Looks like Brendon's swing is improving but I would say that he has a ways to go yet:

 

It seems to me that it takes a lot of practicing the drills to ingrain this motion.  

[airjammer]

I don’t think Brendon is 100% sold on Kwon’s theory. Drew cooper went straight from doing a kwon school to seeing Dana a day later. 
 

In that weeks friday Q and A that Drew does,  he basically said that Kwon’s movements are on the macro level and Dana can put the rest of pieces together for making a that macro move functional on the golf course. 

[johnrobison]

Keep in mind that Dr Kwon isn't a golf instructor (perhaps not even a golfer, AFAIK). He's a scientist who specializes in biomechanics with an emphasis on applying force to a golf club.

[Nels55]

24 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Keep in mind that Dr Kwon isn't a golf instructor (perhaps not even a golfer, AFAIK). He's a scientist who specializes in biomechanics with an emphasis on applying force to a golf club.

I saw one video where Dr. Kwon mentioned that he is just an average golfer.  I would guess that he has a rather sound swing but probably does not spend a lot of time honing his skills.

[glk]

7 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I saw one video where Dr. Kwon mentioned that he is just an average golfer.  I would guess that he has a rather sound swing but probably does not spend a lot of time honing his skills.

he mentioned in one video that his 5 wood is his 230 club.

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, airjammer said:

I don’t think Brendon is 100% sold on Kwon’s theory. Drew cooper went straight from doing a kwon school to seeing Dana a day later. 
 

In that weeks friday Q and A that Drew does,  he basically said that Kwon’s movements are on the macro level and Dana can put the rest of pieces together for making a that macro move functional on the golf course. 

For me the issue with Kwon, and as I’ve said before I think his stuff is truly game changing for the most part, but I have no clue what he’s talking about sometimes and it’s not because it’s too complex it’s because it’s not detailed. “Kick the ground” “let it go.” Now that I’ve seen plenty of his actual lessons I can say I prefer to learn a version of what he teaches from guys like Dana and Koch. 

[Krt22]

6 hours ago, airjammer said:

I don’t think Brendon is 100% sold on Kwon’s theory. Drew cooper went straight from doing a kwon school to seeing Dana a day later. 
 

In that weeks friday Q and A that Drew does,  he basically said that Kwon’s movements are on the macro level and Dana can put the rest of pieces together for making a that macro move functional on the golf course. 

Brendun isn't 100% sold on anything, he's a content creator. 

[RichieHunt]

I haven't follow the entire thread or all of Dr. Kwon's videos, but I have been utilizing a lot of his general teachings, concepts and drills.  Last year, I got a handful of lessons from Josh Koch who collaborates with Dana Dahlquist and much of his teachings are similar to what Dr. Kwon teaches.  The Dr. Kwon videos have helped clarify some things for me and get rid of some nasty habits (particularly the 'reverse roll' move I'd made with my arms in the backswing and opening up the hips and shoulders too early in the downswing).

 

A lot of the Drew Cooper videos have helped as well.

 

One of the big things I focus on is that when I turn in the backswing, I'm trying to get the seamline in my shirt and pants to turn as much as I can, up until my right shoulder is closer to the target than my left shoulder at p4.  I'm trying to make that full turn as fast as I can.  I've been using the Tour Tempo app and setting it to 18/6.  I can't quite do it at 18/6, but I have found that I can turn faster after doing the kettlebell drills and if I get a good trigger motion.  

 

The trigger motion has been one of my bigger focuses in my latest practice sessions. It's just a bit weird to start with a trigger as it feels counter-intuitive.  And sometimes I'll focus so much on the trigger and I forget to get a complete turn going back.  But when I do a 'pretty good' trigger with the complete turn, the swing is very much on auto-pilot.  All I have to do is 'kick start' the ground and everything falls into place nicely. 

 

I also like the concept of the as you turn and then start to tilt the right hip gets higher due to the leg straightening.  But I need to keep turning and tilting so the pressure starts to shift towards the target in my backswing instead of transition when that is too late.  I could never grasp Drew Cooper's 'the top of the backswing is at p2' until his latest video.  The problem I have is that I tend to move body too far back and sway more than 'shurn.'

 

I think where Dr. Kwon's videos have helped me the most is not opening up too early.  Last year I started to feel that was the problem with my swing, particularly after looking at videos of tour players and all time greats.  I just couldn't get the validation for what I need   It's still a work in progress.  Sometimes I don't get enough turn going back or I don't get enough of a shift and that makes it almost impossible to not open up too early.  The other problem that can arise for me is that I'll 'kick start' the ground too late with my left foot.  

 

But what I find interesting is that my old finish position that was more of an anti-hook/anti-pull finish position is slowly disappearing.  I'd say only about 70% of swings have that anti-hook/anti-pull finish and that is slowly improving.

 

What's also nice is that I'm starting to figure out what is going wrong on bad shots.  Most of my hooks are due to kicking the ground too late.  Most of the other bad shots are usually either due to forgetting to make a full turn, turning too slowly or not getting the proper tilt later in the backswing to shift the pressure forward.

 

When I do the swing close to what I'm trying to do, it feels just like a shift forward to start my trigger, then the shurn and just push off.  Sometimes I try to focus on keeping my seamline turned back for as long as I can in transition to counter my  ingrained pattern of opening up too soon.  But when it's not gong well it's usually a case of the pressure shifts being off.  Either not getting enough shift in the takeaway or not getting enough shift forward when completing the backswing.

 

Unfortunately I don't have a launch monitor handy to check my speeds.  Also, I still have issues with my right shoulder and elbow and I have lost a lot of grip strength which is hurting my speed/power.  

 

But I like my swing motion much better.  Really very little or not thought about the arms, just let the pivot put your arms and hands where they need to be.  And no more over-extending/lifting in the backswing and then making this really snappy/laggy motion with the hands in transition.  

 

 

 

 

RH

[Nels55]

Well, I am a little more then three months into trying to apply Dr. Kwon's teaching to my swing.  I have gone from being unable to break 90 when I first started back to scoring about normal for me and maybe a bit better.  My movement pattern has changed a bit for the better but my swing is still not very good and tends to regress back to my old move fairly often.  LOL my main problem seems to be not videoing enough.  I am often looking at video and realizing that I am not doing what I think I am doing.  And I tend to correct the same things over and over.  Possibly one step forward and 3/4 step backwards.

 

At any rate I can say that I am consistently hitting the ball farther then I was previously.  This afternoon I spent quite a bit of time hitting balls on skytrak along with looking at video.  I worked on getting my hips shifting back better on my ball swing more like what I do while drilling and I started hitting it pretty good after a while. 

 

LOL now for some bragging!  I was hitting my 6 iron in the 160 yard range 3 months ago before starting to do the drills.  Today after getting my 67 year old body warmed up I did this set of 10 six iron shots on skytrak with my now normal target distance of 177 yards:

 

I know that 194 yards average for a six iron is not much for most wrx'rs but it is crazy long for me.  I have been seeing long shots like this every now and then but to do 10 in row is... interesting.

 

One other thing is that I had a bad case of the nasty hooks for quite a while this afternoon before I did this set and I seemed to have corrected by simply ignoring the hooked shots instead of trying to correct them.  Apparently trying to do stuff that I think will correct a hook actually causes me to hook more.  

 

Anyway my swing is terrible really but improving a little bit so I have hope that maybe in another 3 months or a year I might reach a little higher level of ball striking.  Of course I am limited by LOFT and I may never get much better then I am right now.  I can say that golf is a lot more fun right now as I am hitting the ball pretty well on the course and I know what I am trying to do.  Also as @RichieHunt mentioned I can often feel when I don't execute the swing correctly and I know what to work on for the next swing. 

 

What the heck cautiously optimistic I guess...

 

[Habitual Flipper]

Came across this thread yesterday and was immediately drawn into Dr. Kwon's videos. Specifically, the 3 part series on swing torque. There were quite a few light bulb moments during those videos, and was the first time I've had ground forces explained to me in a way that scientifically makes sense (e.g., addition of frontal plane and horizontal plane torque vectors creating swing plane torque, in turn generating potential for club head speed).

 

I've recently started to work on club head speed just by trying to swing my driver as fast as I can in my backyard without a ball (2 sessions a week, 30 swings per session as per a recent GolfWRX article that warned against over training). Last weeks session I maxed out with a personal best at 106 MPH with my 44.5" driver. This morning, after 40 minutes of just stage 1 step drill, I hit a personal record of 112 MPH with the same driver measured on SSR. Hitting an actual golf ball I was able to get a reading of 114 MPH measured on both SSR and HD Golf simulator. 

 

Obviously other factors could be at play, such as I've already started swing speed training. However, this anecdotal evidence and the well presented theory by Dr. Kwon has me pretty excited! 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Habitual Flipper
Revision

[MrHateCoffee]

I'm still trying to learn this.  For the most part it's helped out a lot.  I still can't do the rope drill worth a damn and I still struggle with pushing off the lead leg vs stepping into my trail leg for the initial shift.

 

I have a question however...  Should the club feel "weightless" while doing this?  Meaning, should I feel like I'm only using my body to move the club with minimal arm assistance?  I started doing this my last round and it yielded decent results.

[MK7Golf21]

16 minutes ago, MrHateCoffee said:

I'm still trying to learn this.  For the most part it's helped out a lot.  I still can't do the rope drill worth a damn and I still struggle with pushing off the lead leg vs stepping into my trail leg for the initial shift.

 

I have a question however...  Should the club feel "weightless" while doing this?  Meaning, should I feel like I'm only using my body to move the club with minimal arm assistance?  I started doing this my last round and it yielded decent results.

 

 

Curious, what issue is this causing in your swing?

[Dumpedunder]

Recently finished Dr. Kwon’s biomechanics curriculum. The most interesting part pertains to the mathematics behind the forces acting on the COM (mid pelvis) in different leg actions.

 

The main takeaway is maximizing eccentric contractions in the backswing, which set up the downswing movements. It’s along the lines of the “stretch shortening cycle” discussion.

 

A lateral move into the trail leg leads to a rebound force pushing you to the forward direction, much like a pitcher’s windup.

 

As someone who was always taught to “plug into that flexed trail leg and resist turning, loading hard into that glute”, this is HUGE.

 

You’re essentially doing a mechanical disservice to yourself by feeling backswing/downswing.

 

The more forceful that move into the backswing is, the more the ground is pushing your pelvis back to the center and forward.

 

 

[Dumpedunder]

21 hours ago, MrHateCoffee said:

I'm still trying to learn this.  For the most part it's helped out a lot.  I still can't do the rope drill worth a damn and I still struggle with pushing off the lead leg vs stepping into my trail leg for the initial shift.

 

I have a question however...  Should the club feel "weightless" while doing this?  Meaning, should I feel like I'm only using my body to move the club with minimal arm assistance?  I started doing this my last round and it yielded decent results.

If you’re used to whipping the club around with your arms and manipulating positions going back, then absolutely.

 

A weighted driver or an orange whip will turn the light bulbs on. If you’re really turning dynamically, the flattening of the wrists and what not takes care of itself. That all obviously depends on grip. Bad grip, no dice.

 

I do agree, though, with the “wrist geometry” crowd. Adding a little bit of conscious wrist geometry to ensure your club face isn’t miles open would help ensure that you can swing dynamically without worrying about a face hanging wide open and balls going sideways.

[Hilts1969]

21 hours ago, Dumpedunder said:

If you’re used to whipping the club around with your arms and manipulating positions going back, then absolutely.

 

A weighted driver or an orange whip will turn the light bulbs on. If you’re really turning dynamically, the flattening of the wrists and what not takes care of itself. That all obviously depends on grip. Bad grip, no dice.

 

I do agree, though, with the “wrist geometry” crowd. Adding a little bit of conscious wrist geometry to ensure your club face isn’t miles open would help ensure that you can swing dynamically without worrying about a face hanging wide open and balls going sideways.

 

I agree with this and stated quite early on arm/wrist structure is important. Some may get lucky but those with ingrained wrist motions that are bad not so much.

 

Following Dr Kwon should increase your distance if its done in balance. But it won't necessarily make you hit it straighter. May even make you more crooked.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, Billywhizz said:

Why not use a grass whip rather than the rope drill? At least you can see how square the blade is back and forth through the impact area.

 

My understanding is that Dr. Kwon uses drills that are designed to train the body movement without worrying so much about what the clubhead is doing.  That is why he drills with no ball and uses ropes and kettlebells and so on.  With a grass cutter the focus will probably be in the wrong place to accomplish the goal of correct body movement.

 

That said the problem for those of us doing the drills on our own is that we don't have Dr. Kwon with us to make simple corrections to the arm motion.  I don't think that a grass cutter would do anything to correct the arm and hand motion in the way that Dr. Kwon is seen correcting those things on the drill videos.  So imho it might not be a very good idea.

[MK7Golf21]

13 minutes ago, Billywhizz said:

 

But with the rope drill there seems to be no need to try and time the rotation of the lead forearm to square an imaginary clubface at impact. You can use the rope drill to recreate the theorised correct rhythmical movements to produce some optimal grf patterns that may (or may not) help increase clubhead speed but you will, in the end, have to somehow square the clubface too.

 

He hasn't mentioned anything yet in his videos about how to square the clubface but maybe that is for later.

 

That is true. These are all swings using no ball or occasionally a foam ball with no indication where it's going or bracing for impact, hitting a foam ball is very different than a real one. You can very easily train body movements using no ball because your body won't subconsciously make compensation moves. When you start hitting real balls and playing to a target and most the changes you worked so hard to make will disappear in a half hour.

 

One of the reason's why I think it's so absurd that some places charge 5-10 grand for lessons and people will pay it thinking it's a magic in a bottle. No, that 5-10 grand you spent making air swings and hitting foam balls half the day will be gone the next time you go to the range or play a round.

Edited April 20, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[Dumpedunder]

23 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

My understanding is that Dr. Kwon uses drills that are designed to train the body movement without worrying so much about what the clubhead is doing.  That is why he drills with no ball and uses ropes and kettlebells and so on.  With a grass cutter the focus will probably be in the wrong place to accomplish the goal of correct body movement.

 

That said the problem for those of us doing the drills on our own is that we don't have Dr. Kwon with us to make simple corrections to the arm motion.  I don't think that a grass cutter would do anything to correct the arm and hand motion in the way that Dr. Kwon is seen correcting those things on the drill videos.  So imho it might not be a very good idea.

Actually, based on the course work, the pelvis, thorax, and arm movements are linked, which (granted a good grip), allows the club head to travel in a fashion that matches the functional swing plane with less need for manipulation.

 

That’s what his data shows. Personally, I think the addition of some wrist flexion would help, but the only worry with that is that putting force on the wrist voluntarily may disrupt the timing of wrist uncocking, which is massively important for increasing clubhead speed.

 

However, training that motion seems so necessary, because if you’re naturally wanting to massively extend your wrist at the top, you’re dead at the bottom.

[Simpsonia]

31 minutes ago, Billywhizz said:

 

But with the rope drill there seems to be no need to try and time the rotation of the lead forearm to square an imaginary clubface at impact. You can use the rope drill to recreate the theorised correct rhythmical movements to produce some optimal grf patterns that may (or may not) help increase clubhead speed but you will, in the end, have to somehow square the clubface too.

 

He hasn't mentioned anything yet in his videos about how to square the clubface but maybe that is for later.

 

Of course squaring the clubface is for later. If you have too much feedback (such as face or ball flight) it becomes much harder to make changes to the swing. Every good coach out there that is trying to teach large changes to the motion, advocates doing it without ball flight/face control feedback because our brains subconsciously will sabotage efforts to change the motion if it sees a poor result. It's why people who hit into nets when making big swing changes do so much more rapidly than people trying to do the same at the range. They can focus on the motion rather than the result (or poor results that often comes when making big changes). 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Simpsonia

[MK7Golf21]

10 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

Of course squaring the clubface is for later. If you have too much feedback (such as face or ball flight) it becomes much harder to make changes to the swing. Every good coach out there that is trying to teach large changes to the motion, advocates doing it without ball flight/face control feedback because our brains subconsciously will sabotage efforts to change the motion if it sees a poor result. It's why people who hit into nets when making big swing changes do so much more rapidly than people trying to do the same at the range. They can focus on the motion rather than the result (or poor results that often comes when making big changes). 

 

This is true, however, when you go to hit balls the changes disappear very fast. All that work gone and you search for other feels. You have to be prepared for that. I almost like just taking lessons hitting real balls, making changes hitting real balls. The changes aren't drastic but it is the middle ground and is "your" swing.

Edited April 20, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[MK7Golf21]

6 minutes ago, Billywhizz said:

 

So maybe the step drills hitting a line of real balls might be better.

 

well you have to take it to hitting real balls to a target eventually, I'd suggest not waiting very long. I know Tiger takes it to hitting balls on grass the same day to see if he is working on the right stuff, that is where it counts. Otherwise, you are wasting a bunch of time.

 

I don't like that all these instructors are in labs these days.

Edited April 20, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[Simpsonia]

42 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

This is true, however, when you go to hit balls the changes disappear very fast. All that work gone and you search for other feels. You have to be prepared for that. I almost like just taking lessons hitting real balls, making changes hitting real balls. The changes aren't drastic but it is the middle ground and is "your" swing.

 

No, see this is exactly what Monte and other coaches say is holding amateurs back who are trying to get better. You need to commit to making the changes, even if they disappear for a while when you're actually on the course. You go to the course and you swing your swing that you arrived to the course with. But once you get back and go back into practice mode, you need continue to work ingraining the correct motions that you can monitor via video (and ideally get continuous feedback from a coach). If you're just constantly searching for new or different swing feels, yeah you're never going to get better because swing feels change day to day. 

 

Real swing changes take months (or more likely years) to fully ingrain and overwrite bad motions. The problem is most amateurs don't ever commit because they don't get immediate feedback the first time they go to a course. Or worse, they discount the correct motions because they associate a poor result (fat, chunk, thin, shank, etc) with the motion, rather than the poor execution of the motion because it hasn't been fully ingrained yet. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Simpsonia

[MK7Golf21]

38 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

No, see this is exactly what Monte and other coaches say is holding amateurs back who are trying to get better. You need to commit to making the changes, even if they disappear for a while when you're actually on the course. You go to the course and you swing your swing that you arrived to the course with. But once you get back and go back into practice mode, you need continue to work ingraining the correct motions that you can monitor via video (and ideally get continuous feedback from a coach). If you're just constantly searching for new or different swing feels, yeah you're never going to get better because swing feels change day to day. 

 

Real swing changes take months (or more likely years) to fully ingrain and overwrite bad motions. The problem is most amateurs don't ever commit because they don't get immediate feedback the first time they go to a course. Or worse, they discount the correct motions because they associate a poor result (fat, chunk, thin, shank, etc) with the motion, rather than the poor execution of the motion because it hasn't been fully ingrained yet. 

 

That's why hitting real balls into open air is an important part of the process instead of waiting. Some people will work all winter ingraining "positions" into a net and then start playing in the spring and find out they are hitting it 90 degree's sideways and shooting 100. They wasted months ingraining a motion that was based on some ideal position that they probably aren't even correctly doing or doesn't come naturally to them.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

well you have to take it to hitting real balls to a target eventually, I'd suggest not waiting very long. I know Tiger takes it to hitting balls on grass the same day to see if he is working on the right stuff, that is where it counts. Otherwise, you are wasting a bunch of time.

 

I don't like that all these instructors are in labs these days.

In my experience getting the correct motion doing the drills is not easy.  From there getting the motion to hitting golf balls is a slow process.  For instance I can get a reasonable move going with the rope drill but when I go to hit a golf ball I tend to revert to my old pattern.  My way to combat this is to take a few rope swings and then hit one ball and repeat.  I also do the same with the step drills.  For instance as Kwon recommends while playing I do a stage 3 drill before every ball swing. 

 

3 months or so into doing this and I am seeing some results.  As @Simpsonia mentioned it could take years to effect a real change to an efficient motion.  It takes time to actually change body movements especially when the poor movement pattern has produced a lot of 'good' shots over the years. 

 

My previous swing was terrible and I feel like I am moving into the sort of acceptable range.  Anyway if an established golfer is looking for a quick fix I don't think that this will work in most cases.

[MK7Golf21]

38 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

In my experience getting the correct motion doing the drills is not easy.  From there getting the motion to hitting golf balls is a slow process.  For instance I can get a reasonable move going with the rope drill but when I go to hit a golf ball I tend to revert to my old pattern.  My way to combat this is to take a few rope swings and then hit one ball and repeat.  I also do the same with the step drills.  For instance as Kwon recommends while playing I do a stage 3 drill before every ball swing. 

 

3 months or so into doing this and I am seeing some results.  As @Simpsonia mentioned it could take years to effect a real change to an efficient motion.  It takes time to actually change body movements especially when the poor movement pattern has produced a lot of 'good' shots over the years. 

 

My previous swing was terrible and I feel like I am moving into the sort of acceptable range.  Anyway if an established golfer is looking for a quick fix I don't think that this will work in most cases.

 

what is your old pattern vs. the changes you are trying to make?

[Nels55]

9 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

what is your old pattern vs. the changes you are trying to make?

Hips go towards the target on the backswing and then reverse to start down and then go back to towards the target.  Sit and spin through the ball same as a lot of Kwon's students.  Also I used an arm dominated swing quite a bit.  Too slow going back and too fast starting the downswing.  Most any mistake that you see Kwon correct I have done at some point.

[iceman1118]

Been taking some of this to the course for my first few rounds of the season. I have adopted step 3 (small swing forward, then back and through) as my pre shot routine. Driver I go full swing, irons/wedges I go as far back in the backswing as the distance I have in front of me to ingrain my feel. It has been working well so far. I am not a big swing thought guy, but doing step 3 before I step into my shot has really cleared my mind.