Dr Kwon

[Simpsonia]

10 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

This is why teachers who advocate lowering the arms early talk so much about not right tilting. If you pull down and do that it’s really bad. They guys on tour who actually pull down have more level shoulders. Rory, Justin Rose, Sergio to name a few. It is very hard for me not to early extend doing that pattern. Justin Rose actually does early extend. 

 

But now you're talking about apples and oranges. Instructors who advocate lowering the arms (ala the Justin Rose drill) aren't advocating the exact minute sequencing and timing of a tour pro who may get a little further down the chest than others. They are giving feels to amateurs who have no concept of what the arms actually need to do in the swing. As Monte says, most Ams don't get the arms started early enough, and if they don't try to lower the arms earlier rather than later they end up getting really stuck. So rather than teach exact timing down to the hundreths of a second to try and match DJ and Brooksy's left arm, they use broader feels such as "pull the arms down early" to get them actually moving in transition. Otherwise you end up with a thousand range heroes who just leave the arms up and end up either stalling into massive early extension or suck them down late behind and get stuck in duck hook city. 

[Nard_S]

I don't think this is a position thing, this is more a firing thing. 

 

I'm upper body, hand & arms dominant. The J.R. pump works better for me because it appeals to my nature of swinging, of how I trigger things. I find the G.G. sequence goofy, especially the yo-yo part even though I swung like that for some time. I do embrace his squat but the pump move is the winner for me. YMMV.

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

Instructors who advocate lowering the arms (ala the Justin Rose drill) aren't advocating the exact minute sequencing and timing of a tour pro who may get a little further down the chest than others.

What I’m trying to get people to see is the difference here is whether the arms lower immediately or stay up higher. That’s the whole point. They are completely different ways to swing the club. Different matchups, different movements. IMO it is much easier to get stuck pulling the arms down the chest than it is doing what Brooks, DJ and Tommy do. But my point isn’t to say that one is better than the other for everyone. It’s that they are vastly different ways to swing a golf club.  
 

GG approached this by calling it a myth. It’s not a myth. You can do whichever swing you want and decide for yourself what works. 
 

 

 

[RichieHunt]

I have a question (unfortunately I haven't read every post or every Dr. Kwon video).

 

When the golfer 'kicks the ground' and makes the 'frisbee flinging' motion with the upper body are those actions supposed to happen simultaneously or does one happen before the other?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

RH

[Simpsonia]

35 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

I have a question (unfortunately I haven't read every post or every Dr. Kwon video).

 

When the golfer 'kicks the ground' and makes the 'frisbee flinging' motion with the upper body are those actions supposed to happen simultaneously or does one happen before the other?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

RH

 

The intention of the Kwon step drills are supposed to take swing thought sequencing out of the equation. Keep doing them, but also mix in ultra high intensity swings too. For example, Kwon often says "swing as hard as you can, imagine hitting someone in front of you that you really hate." That's supposed to get your lateral movement going so hard that if you don't brace with the lead leg ("kickstart the ground") you're going to fall over forward. That should get you the sequencing of an early pressure shift without having to think about it consciously. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Simpsonia

[glk]

38 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

I have a question (unfortunately I haven't read every post or every Dr. Kwon video).

 

When the golfer 'kicks the ground' and makes the 'frisbee flinging' motion with the upper body are those actions supposed to happen simultaneously or does one happen before the other?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

RH

It is kick then go.   

[MonteScheinblum]

13 hours ago, Krt22 said:

That would be very cool. Objective measurements tend to settle debates pretty quickly.

Only with the people who are interested in learning.  Many don’t care and just hold on.

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Can you see the difference here? Lead arm is lower on the body, higher right shoulder. More extended lead wrist lag, no shallowing. Sergio’s is shallow because it’s so laid off at the top but he doesn’t actually shallow he just lowers the arms.

 

If These 3 major champions are not shallow, well I am not sure what else to say. If this sort of arm lowering isn't shallow, shouldn't it also stop rotation? Are all 3 really stalled out and stuck? Do I really need to rotate like DJ to be considered shallow?

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If These 3 major champions are not shallow, well I am not sure what else to say. If this sort of arm lowering isn't shallow, shouldn't it also stop rotation? Are all 3 really stalled out and stuck? Do I really need to rotate like DJ to be considered shallow?

By left arm parallel all elite golfers are accelerating the left arm away from the chest.  It’s been measured by Phil Cheatham. It’s also around .02 seconds after the hips accelerate.  I’ve measured hundreds in 3D and AMG has measured thousands.  It’s pretty cut and dried.  Ams accelerate the arms/hands later than pros and long hitters.

 

Its why you start seeing a gap between lead arm and the torso at p5 down the line and a huge one at p6 and many ams have no gap.  It’s why at p6 face on you see pros hands in front of trail thigh and ams have hands well behind.  Cast and flip must happen just to get club to the ball or they’d miss it.

Edited May 3, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If These 3 major champions are not shallow, well I am not sure what else to say. If this sort of arm lowering isn't shallow, shouldn't it also stop rotation? Are all 3 really stalled out and stuck? Do I really need to rotate like DJ to be considered shallow?

Shallow shaft angle and shallow-ing are two different things. Neither are necessary to win a major championship. I am not claiming that one pattern is better than the other for everyone. I’m saying that they are different. As long as we can acknowledge that not everyone swings the same way we have made progress on this forum. There is entirely too much “this is what pros” do references with the arms and wrists. 

[MPStrat]

39 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

By left arm parallel all elite golfers are accelerating the left arm away from the chest.  It’s been measured by Phil Cheatham. It’s also around .02 seconds after the hips accelerate.  I’ve measured hundreds in 3D and AMG has measured thousands.  It’s pretty cut and dried.  Ams accelerate the arms/hands later than pros and long hitters.

 

Its why you start seeing a gap between lead arm and the torso at p5 down the line and a huge one at p6 and many ams have no gap.  It’s why at p6 face on you see pros hands in front of trail thigh and ams have hands well behind.  Cast and flip must happen just to get club to the ball or they’d miss it.

 

Lowering the lead arm down the chest would be a down and deep move, where accelerating the lead arm as part of the sequence would be forward motion. 

 

The conversation is about what actually happens before p5. Some slide their arms down their chest, some do not. 

From a feel perspective someone feeling the downswing is like throwing a frisbee is different from sliding the arms down the chest like Rose, Rory and Sergio. Although you can do what those three do, it’s just not what everyone does.

[Krt22]

 

38 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

By left arm parallel all elite golfers are accelerating the left arm away from the chest.  It’s been measured by Phil Cheatham. It’s also around .02 seconds after the hips accelerate.  I’ve measured hundreds in 3D and AMG has measured thousands.  It’s pretty cut and dried.  Ams accelerate the arms/hands later than pros and long hitters.

 

Its why you start seeing a gap between lead arm and the torso at p5 down the line and a huge one at p6 and many ams have no gap.  It’s why at p6 face on you see pros hands in front of trail thigh and ams have hands well behind.  Cast and flip must happen just to get club to the ball or they’d miss it.

Now this makes lots of sense. I think most agree that in the back swing the arms both are raised and get closer to the chest (up and in) . So at some point in the downswing, they will need to come down and out, if they don't you'd likely miss the ball completely. 

 

27 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Shallow shaft angle and shallow-ing are two different things. Neither are necessary to win a major championship. I am not claiming that one pattern is better than the other for everyone. I’m saying that they are different. As long as we can acknowledge that not everyone swings the same way we have made progress on this forum. There is entirely too much “this is what pros” do references with the arms and wrists. 

 Is the goal of shallow-ing...not to have a shallow shaft coming into impact? I am sorry, but this makes no sense. I am also not saying there are is only one to do things, I am just saying I would like to see certain claims measured on 3D to show just how different they really are. In reality most ams would benefit more from "doing what the pros do". Not doing what the pros do is why there are a bad golfer in the first place

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

 

Now this makes lots of sense. I think most agree that in the back swing the arms both are raised and get closer to the chest (up and in) . So at some point in the downswing, they will need to come down and out, if they don't you'd likely miss the ball completely. 

 

 Is the goal of shallow-ing...not to have a shallow shaft coming into impact? I am sorry, but this makes no sense. I am also not saying there are is only one to do things, I am just saying I would like to see certain claims measured on 3D to show just how different they really are. In reality most ams would benefit more from "doing what the pros do". Not doing what the pros do is why there are a bad golfer in the first place

Which pros? Justin Rose? Xander? Bernhard Langer?

 

There is a difference between shaft angle in the downswing and creating a differentiation between the COM and the net force. Creating that differentiation is shallow-ing. Phil Mickelson hasn’t shallowed a day in his life and he’s fine. Sergio has a more horizontal shaft angle in the downswing due to his laid off backswing but doesn’t actually shallow the shaft. 

 

 

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

 

Lowering the lead arm down the chest would be a down and deep move, where accelerating the lead arm as part of the sequence would be forward motion. 

 

The conversation is about what actually happens before p5. Some slide their arms down their chest, some do not. 

From a feel perspective someone feeling the downswing is like throwing a frisbee is different from sliding the arms down the chest like Rose, Rory and Sergio. Although you can do what those three do, it’s just not what everyone does.

 

You've probably seen the post, but Dan C posted about this extensively 8 years ago in this classic thread. Hands away from the shoulder, some out, some down. 

 

Quote

You can't straighten the right arm too fast too soon. If the right arm is straight at impact rather than bent it's because shoulder stalled not because the arms are firing too fast. Right arm must begin straightening before wrist begin uncocking. Coming down immediately, hands need to move away from the right shoulder down and forward getting wider. This results it more "lag" not less. The majority of people have the right arm way too bent and back halfway down and are generally the ones who end up with it straight at impact. Doesn't begin straightening fast enough or soon enough, so then they go "oops" the shoulder stops and they straighten it completely very late to get down to the golf ball.

 

[Krt22]

7 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

You've probably seen the post, but Dan C posted about this extensively 8 years ago in this classic thread. Hands away from the shoulder, some out, some down. 

 

 

I see Dan C is talking about Sergio. Apparently sergio doesn't shallow, he is just laid off🤔

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

You've probably seen the post, but Dan C posted about this extensively 8 years ago in this classic thread. Hands away from the shoulder, some out, some down. 

 

 

Notice that it is Sergio who is referenced in this thread. It is one way to do it. Dana used to teach it that way too and even has some students who do it but has said it’s not his preferred way for everyone. It is a pattern. 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

I see Dan C is talking about Sergio. Apparently sergio doesn't shallow, he is just laid off🤔

 I didn’t make that up. I got it from Manzella who has it measured on Jacobs 3d. 

[PracticeSwinger]

Seeing that the discussion is moving towards: arms moving up and down and when, also the speed at which the trail arm straightening... myths/facts #3, #5 and #8 are particularly interesting... 

 

 

[Simpsonia]

9 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Notice that it is Sergio who is referenced in this thread. It is one way to do it. Dana used to teach it that way too and even has some students who do it but has said it’s not his preferred way for everyone. It is a pattern. 

 

I guess I'm confused what you're argument exactly is here? Is it that none of your cited pros (DJ, Brooksey, Tommy) lower their left arm at all in the swing? ie they raise the arms then just rotate? Or that they just don't lower it quite as much as some others do? Cause if it's the latter, then it's exactly as I said, some out, some down, the degree of down-ness just varies based on matchups. 

[glk]

41 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 I didn’t make that up. I got it from Manzella who has it measured on Jacobs 3d. 

Don’t know when they measured Sergio but here he is in 2018 from Wayne d and it is clear that he shallows the shaft in transition.  See starting around 7:00 mark

 

 

never seen Justin ee either.  You have some video of this?   
 

personally I find gg video confusing and especially his arm talk.  Would be nice to see an example since I have doubts that he was talking about tour pros.  And Justin doesn’t use his drill to get his arms in front - it is actually the opposite.   He actually agrees with gg on it is bad to drop the arm in front!
 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by glk

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I guess I'm confused what you're argument exactly is here? Is it that none of your cited pros (DJ, Brooksey, Tommy) lower their left arm at all in the swing? ie they raise the arms then just rotate? Or that they just don't lower it quite as much as some others do? Cause if it's the latter, then it's exactly as I said, some out, some down, the degree of down-ness just varies based on matchups. 

Bingo, they all have to do it, just some more or less than others depending on how much they rotate and how much side bend they can achieve. Not everyone can rotate and get open like DJ, so to say someone who is a bit more upright and uses the arms more a "myth" isn't really a true statement.

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, glk said:

Don’t know when they measured Sergio but here he is in 2018 from Wayne d and it is clear that he shallows the shaft in transition.  See starting around 7:00 mark

 

 

never seen Justin ee either.  You have some video of this?   
 

personally I find gg video confusing and especially his arm talk.  Would be nice to see an example since I have doubts that he was talking about your pros.  And Justin use his drill to get his arms in front - it is actually the opposite.   He actually agrees with gg on it is bad to drop the arm in front!
 

 

Key point here is feel vs real. Just about everyone who demonstrate/advocates lowering the arms early, know full well it doesn't actually look like that once you add speed and rotation. But the focus is on that motion since that is what many golfers lack

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, glk said:

Don’t know when they measured Sergio but here he is in 2018 from Wayne d and it is clear that he shallows the shaft in transition.  See starting around 7:00 mark

 

 

never seen Justin ee either.  You have some video of this?   
 

personally I find gg video confusing and especially his arm talk.  Would be nice to see an example since I have doubts that he was talking about tour pros.  And Justin use his drill to get his arms in front - it is actually the opposite.   He actually agrees with gg on it is bad to drop the arm in front!
 

 

From v1

[MPStrat]

8 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Not everyone can rotate and get open like DJ, so to say someone who is a bit more upright and uses the arms more a "myth" isn't really a true statement.

I have been saying these things around here for a while. The page before this, In fact. 

[MPStrat]

18 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I guess I'm confused what you're argument exactly is here? Is it that none of your cited pros (DJ, Brooksey, Tommy) lower their left arm at all in the swing? ie they raise the arms then just rotate? Or that they just don't lower it quite as much as some others do? Cause if it's the latter, then it's exactly as I said, some out, some down, the degree of down-ness just varies based on matchups. 

Here is my belief. Leaving the lead arm where it is from p4 to p5 allows you to do some cool stuff. If you attempt to lower it down the chest from p4, you are going to have a tougher time doing those things. But unequivocally, you have guys on tour who leave the lead arm up on the shoulder plane and some who lower it. 

[glk]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

From v1

Appears to be a bad angLe.  2016 with iron and 2017 with driver. Don’t see any ee.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by glk

[MK7Golf21]

there are many ways to swing but looking at how a player like DJ does it. You will see the left arm closer to the body because of how much he rotates on the downswing at shaft parallel. He's not holding his body back on the downswing at all.

 

 

 

I personally don't think he tries to leave his arms up intentionally either, it's just a look but I do think he tries to clear his body which causes the look. It's at this point you will see the arms fling forward which creates the space and releasing the energy as the body is already open and braking on the lead side.

 

 

 

There are a few problems I see with am's swings they are intentionally trying to leave the arms up and their pivots aren't very good. They don't create space on the downswing like DJ and the body gets in the way so it looks really out of sync, they slide way too much (look how DJ's all lines up on the lead side, would be more noticeable with iron) and release the angles/arms can't get forward. 

 

Saying that, it's not very easy to do. It's much easier to just keep your upper body closed and swing the arms down to create the space but there are some drawbacks as well. What I don't like is what can happen with that move, Brian Gay as an example below. The hips become too inactive.

 

[MPStrat]

45 minutes ago, glk said:

Appears to be a bad angLe.  2016 with iron and 2017 with driver. Don’t see any ee.

 

 

 

 

He is basically standing straight up at impact in the stills I posted. Obviously he is prone to early extension. 

[MK7Golf21]

JR is worldclass. The JR drill he does came from back in the early Foley days and works for him. Rose use to not get as much depth at the top (vs what Foley likes) and his hands would go very out in transition. Then had to drop right shoulder, stall rotation and throw the club so that he wouldn't swing over the top. The whole goal behind it was for Rose to get his hands deeper on the backswing and then bring them down  before rotation exaggerated because of how much his hands would go out prior. It's a version of the common over the top fix, keep upper body closed and pump the arms down.

 

Tiger was the opposite under, he was dropping his hands down too much and closed off with upper body, remember all the leaving the arms up and swinging over the top drills Tiger was doing during the Foley years to combat this?

 

Funny he doesn't have any of those issues nowadays on his own.

Edited May 3, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[MPStrat]

Just now, MK7Golf21 said:

JR is worldclass. The JR drill he does came from back in the early Foley days and works for him. Rose use to not get as much depth at the top (vs what Foley likes) and his hands would go very out in transition. Then had to drop right shoulder, stall rotation and throw the club so that he wouldn't swing over the top. The whole goal behind it was for Rose to get his hands deeper on the backswing and then bring them down  before rotation exaggerated because of how much his hands would go out prior.

 

Tiger was the opposite under, he was dropping his hands down too much and closed off with upper body, remember all the leaving the arms up and swinging over the top drills Tiger was doing during the Foley years to combat this?

 

Funny he doesn't have any of those issues nowadays on his own.

It’s not uncommon for tour players to have some EE. It’s not a slight or a knock on Rose. Not everyone can do what DJ does.