Dr Kwon

[Simpsonia]

12 hours ago, glk said:

Scott Lynn has lots of good info.   I watch and listen to every video or podcast including him that I can.   It is more of me saying the same thing Scott is cause he and kwon are two of my biggest sources for info on grf.  As Scott says humans are messy and there is plenty of variation within our swing motion - more a spectrum than a dichotomy or tricohotomy.    
 

can take his level 1 certification on the swing cat site for free.    

 

My takeaway from watching many of Lynn's other videos on the SwingCatalyst channel though is that the max GRF (Kwon's "kickstart") is still preceded by quite a bit of lead foot pressure (maybe ~30-40% total pressure), but more in the toes as a rotational/torque force to get the hips back to square so he can start ramping up the vertical. So as it relates to Rory's video, since he famously has a lift and replant of the lead heel, he's still using quite a bit of lead leg GRF in the toes to re-square prior to planting that lead heel and kicking to max vertical force. Is that how you understand it as well? 

[Forged4life]

31 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

My takeaway from watching many of Lynn's other videos on the SwingCatalyst channel though is that the max GRF (Kwon's "kickstart") is still preceded by quite a bit of lead foot pressure (maybe ~30-40% total pressure), but more in the toes as a rotational/torque force to get the hips back to square so he can start ramping up the vertical. So as it relates to Rory's video, since he famously has a lift and replant of the lead heel, he's still using quite a bit of lead leg GRF in the toes to re-square prior to planting that lead heel and kicking to max vertical force. Is that how you understand it as well? 

I have to disagree that rory has a famously left heel move. He is one that pretty much keeps it on the ground. Jack and bubba are more famous for that left heel lift and replant. I would think the way he dips in transition and double cocks the hips is more his famous move. 
 

that being said holy moly is that just a perfect golf swing for the driver. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Forged4life

[glk]

5 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

My takeaway from watching many of Lynn's other videos on the SwingCatalyst channel though is that the max GRF (Kwon's "kickstart") is still preceded by quite a bit of lead foot pressure (maybe ~30-40% total pressure), but more in the toes as a rotational/torque force to get the hips back to square so he can start ramping up the vertical. So as it relates to Rory's video, since he famously has a lift and replant of the lead heel, he's still using quite a bit of lead leg GRF in the toes to re-square prior to planting that lead heel and kicking to max vertical force. Is that how you understand it as well? 

All three grf have overlap just peak in a typical order of horizontal, torque, then vertical.

[RichieHunt]

Just an update my progress.  I had been working on some of the footwork stuff that Marcus Bell talks about.  My issue is getting the pressure shift forward enough and early enough.  That causes low point issues along with not getting enough vertical force and not being able to get enough rotation.  

 

I had been watching some of Marcus Bell's work on YouTube and started paying attention to the footwork.  The un-c0cking and c0cking of the ankles, pronation of the trail ankle in transition and the shift of pressure from the toes to the heel.  Started out great with that.  Seeing a lower ball flight (I hit it quite high) with a noticeably increase in distance.  

 

But this is golf and eerything loses its luster eventually.

 

The past two weeks I would hit a lot of good shots, but then make a lot of terrible swings.  Not only would the results be bad, but the swing just felt completely different.  No timing, no balance, no ability to push off with the left leg and the feel of using the ground was greatly diminished.  Then it would be countered by beautiful shots that made me feel like Hogan in '53.

 

I decided to figure out what the common pressure tracing looked like for your every day slicer.  I could tell that I was opening my shoulders too soon, but couldn't figure out why I couldn't prevent that from happening.  That's when I found this video.

 

 

 

It's not a big revelation, but it got me to understand that I didn't need to worry about transferring the pressure from the toes to my heel in my left foot as much.  It's more important for me to not get the pressure tracing so much to my left heel in transition so quickly.

 

I hit balls yesterday and the results and the swing were initially much better.  But this being golf I started to lose things a bit as the range session progressed.  I could hit a few balls where the pressure shift was just fine, but then I would hit a ball where the pressure shift would get too quickly to the left heel and then I'd hit the big whipe or een worse, the shank.  And it would feel like I was barely using the ground at all.

 

That's when I started to feel around and understand what was going on.  I have a tendency to keep my left knee too straight in the backswing.  This is something that George Gankas talked about in my swing a few years ago and we worked to correct it.  But I also realized that when I have that straightened left knee, I baiscally do that by pushing off my left heel.  That is why I tend to over-extend in the backswing  and I don't get enough turn.  But it also causes me to shift the pressure back to the left heel too soon in transition.

 

I've seen plenty of players, particularly long hitters, play with a straighter left leg in the backswing.  But the difference is that they had their pressre still on the toes on their left foot in the backswing and were 'pushing off' those toes.  This still allows them to shift the pressure forward and initially towards the toes of their left foot.  

 

I have found the kettlebell drills that Dr. Kwon prescribes to be the most useful in feeling the pressure shifts and the pivot motion.

 

 

 

RH

[Nels55]

6 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

Just an update my progress.  I had been working on some of the footwork stuff that Marcus Bell talks about.  My issue is getting the pressure shift forward enough and early enough.  That causes low point issues along with not getting enough vertical force and not being able to get enough rotation.  

 

I had been watching some of Marcus Bell's work on YouTube and started paying attention to the footwork.  The un-c0cking and c0cking of the ankles, pronation of the trail ankle in transition and the shift of pressure from the toes to the heel.  Started out great with that.  Seeing a lower ball flight (I hit it quite high) with a noticeably increase in distance.  

 

But this is golf and eerything loses its luster eventually.

 

The past two weeks I would hit a lot of good shots, but then make a lot of terrible swings.  Not only would the results be bad, but the swing just felt completely different.  No timing, no balance, no ability to push off with the left leg and the feel of using the ground was greatly diminished.  Then it would be countered by beautiful shots that made me feel like Hogan in '53.

 

I decided to figure out what the common pressure tracing looked like for your every day slicer.  I could tell that I was opening my shoulders too soon, but couldn't figure out why I couldn't prevent that from happening.  That's when I found this video.

 

 

 

It's not a big revelation, but it got me to understand that I didn't need to worry about transferring the pressure from the toes to my heel in my left foot as much.  It's more important for me to not get the pressure tracing so much to my left heel in transition so quickly.

 

I hit balls yesterday and the results and the swing were initially much better.  But this being golf I started to lose things a bit as the range session progressed.  I could hit a few balls where the pressure shift was just fine, but then I would hit a ball where the pressure shift would get too quickly to the left heel and then I'd hit the big whipe or een worse, the shank.  And it would feel like I was barely using the ground at all.

 

That's when I started to feel around and understand what was going on.  I have a tendency to keep my left knee too straight in the backswing.  This is something that George Gankas talked about in my swing a few years ago and we worked to correct it.  But I also realized that when I have that straightened left knee, I baiscally do that by pushing off my left heel.  That is why I tend to over-extend in the backswing  and I don't get enough turn.  But it also causes me to shift the pressure back to the left heel too soon in transition.

 

I've seen plenty of players, particularly long hitters, play with a straighter left leg in the backswing.  But the difference is that they had their pressre still on the toes on their left foot in the backswing and were 'pushing off' those toes.  This still allows them to shift the pressure forward and initially towards the toes of their left foot.  

 

I have found the kettlebell drills that Dr. Kwon prescribes to be the most useful in feeling the pressure shifts and the pivot motion.

 

 

 

RH

Sounds like a familiar process LOL.  I am probably not as detailed as you seem to be but finding something mechanical that works and then losing it has been a constant in my golf journey.  Actually it has been the same in any sport, something works for a while and then it does not.

 

I don't think that you can consciously control the types of the things that you mention in your post and be successful in the long run.  But the answer is not to just swing mindlessly because then the mechanics will be sub optimal or totally suck to be more precise. 

 

I think that for me the trick is to find a way to make the 'correct' movements automatic.  Doing the drills and videoing a lot does seem to help.  While playing I seem to do my best when I have a really simple focus and I do a step 3 drill before the shot to try to ingrain the correct body motion.  Right now my simple focus is to feel like my arms and wrists are a free hinge at impact.  Doing this tends to give a decent impact position with good trajectory and a little less tendency to hook it off the planet.  LOL I seem to play my worst when I focus on making a good backswing which is something that I have tended to focus on a lot over the years.  So for me it seems best to focus on the backswing with a practice swing and then focus on making good impact while actually playing the shot.  

 

I hope to get to a point where I can turn my brain off and just play the shot to the target without thinking about how to swing the club.  I have done that for short periods of time on rare occasions in the past and it is a wonderful way to play.  I can do that fairly often while putting and sometimes on short game shots so maybe there is hope...

[RichieHunt]

19 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Sounds like a familiar process LOL.  I am probably not as detailed as you seem to be but finding something mechanical that works and then losing it has been a constant in my golf journey.  Actually it has been the same in any sport, something works for a while and then it does not.

 

I don't think that you can consciously control the types of the things that you mention in your post and be successful in the long run.  But the answer is not to just swing mindlessly because then the mechanics will be sub optimal or totally suck to be more precise. 

 

I think that for me the trick is to find a way to make the 'correct' movements automatic.  Doing the drills and videoing a lot does seem to help.  While playing I seem to do my best when I have a really simple focus and I do a step 3 drill before the shot to try to ingrain the correct body motion.  Right now my simple focus is to feel like my arms and wrists are a free hinge at impact.  Doing this tends to give a decent impact position with good trajectory and a little less tendency to hook it off the planet.  LOL I seem to play my worst when I focus on making a good backswing which is something that I have tended to focus on a lot over the years.  So for me it seems best to focus on the backswing with a practice swing and then focus on making good impact while actually playing the shot.  

 

I hope to get to a point where I can turn my brain off and just play the shot to the target without thinking about how to swing the club.  I have done that for short periods of time on rare occasions in the past and it is a wonderful way to play.  I can do that fairly often while putting and sometimes on short game shots so maybe there is hope...

 

I learned a long time ago from a former PGA Tour pro that when you have to think about your backswing you're going to play your worst.  It's very true.

 

The idea is to just get up there and have almost zero thought about it and just fire away.  I have long believed that so much of golf is much more natural than people think  The Dr. Kwon videos have confirmed my suspicions as if you get the pressures moving and have good sequencing a lot of the other stuff like the shaft plane, face angle, wrist actions, arms, etc. fall in place.

 

But it's good to be precise (and accurate) in what you're trying to accomplish and what your tendencies are.  There's a video from BBG where Drew Cooper talks about whenever he struggles it's basically the same thing in that his head and upper body move off the ball too much.  It doesn't matter how he's struggling or when, he knows he'll look at it on video and his upper body and head are out of position in the backswing.

 

I think that's likely the case for most low handicappers.  The tricky part is that whatever their bad habit is they are not doing it exactly the same every time they fall back into the bad habit.  It's more about variations of the bad habit that they fall back into.

 

Once one can establish accurately and precisely what they are trying to accomplish and understand what their bad habit is they can get to work on correcting their movements and make it become second nature to them.

 

Otherwise their hand-eye coordination and manual dexterity starts to play a larger role.  When their hand-eye coordination and manual dexterity is on point and can create good results despite inaccurate intentions that's when people start to chase 'feels' and their misperceptions about the swing start to grow.

 

 

 

 

RH

[RichieHunt]

This weekend was rough for me.  Felt like I was getting it on the range, but the course was a borderline dumpster fire.  Having said that, one of the things I've learned that has really helped me was when Drew Cooper discussed that he basically has one bad habit and habit always shows up when he is not playing well.

 

As I posted earlier, I think the tricky part is with good players the bad habit can come in variations.  Then the player has to come up with the right variation of a fix to the problem.  

 

For me I've boiled down the bad habit being that I open up too soon.  I feel that the issue right now stems from inefficient movements and pressure shifts of the left leg in the backswing. 

 

I feel like when I turn in the backswing, my lower and upper body need to pivot to the point where left knee flexes and the left ankle pronates.  Getting more of the pressure towards the ball of the left foot rather than the heel.

 

One of my bad habits is to get too much pressure towards the heel of my left foot going back and then pushing off the left heel and not pronating the left ankle in the backswing.  It's amazing that when I really worked on the former the ballstriking improved dramatically and it was easy to shift the pressure forward without opening up too soon.  

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[hackeraz]

Finally finished all 43 pages! Absolutely great thread and has helped me tremendously. I don't believe I was ever too far off these principles back when I was playing regularly as a teenager and college chap, but a 20 year break certainly caused some lapse in memory. As I restarted my golf journey I lost rhythm and sequencing, most notably from way too slow and measured of a back swing trying to hit positions. The Leadbetter golf comment in one of the videos was bang on. In the few times I've been out this year I've noticed that my best ball striking has been when i've been a bit more free in my swing and there's a rhythm, eye opener after watching this. Spent some time on the range ironing out a few the items, more force in the backswing, getting transitioned earlier into the lead leg, and boom. Crazy solid contact and felt like I was 22 again dropping 330+ off the tees.  

[glk]

 

[zacgolf]

 

[i*windows]

of those following Dr Kwon what are you main takeaways from his ideas?

external focus

On 6/3/2022 at 2:20 PM, RichieHunt said:

 

I learned a long time ago from a former PGA Tour pro that when you have to think about your backswing you're going to play your worst.  It's very true.

 

The idea is to just get up there and have almost zero thought about it and just fire away.  I have long believed that so much of golf is much more natural than people think  The Dr. Kwon videos have confirmed my suspicions as if you get the pressures moving and have good sequencing a lot of the other stuff like the shaft plane, face angle, wrist actions, arms, etc. fall in place.

 

couldn't agree more,I've always played my best when my only thoughts are to start the swing by screwing a bottle top closed on the way back, then open it on the way down and my body organises itself well and I hit the shots. 

 

[glk]

On 6/7/2022 at 3:47 AM, zacgolf said:

 

I’m attending this.   47 signed up so far.   

[Duffer Mark]

Insightful review: Findings from Dr. Kwon’s Golf Biomechanics Instructor Training Program Level 1

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/findings-from-dr-kwons-golf-biomechanics-instructor-training-lee/

[trilerian]

On 5/30/2022 at 7:37 PM, glk said:

Great example. Note when Rory starts straightening the left leg - appears about p5 or a bit after.   He first adds flex in transition. And has to rotate back to square to get into position to kick.

 

hard to see on kwon’s as in Rory but note where golfer is at max grf.  
 

 

 

another way to view this is on a scale lowering oneself raise vertical force and the raising lowers it - so weight goes up and then down - max grf is at point at or just before the raising up happens.

 

first the shift has to happen to align the hip and ankles - if hip stays inside ankle or goes outside then won’t be able to push as hard.  And given the downswing happens in .25 sec and getting to p5 takes about .12 of that easy to sense that turn and kick happen almost at same time.   
 

tyler has a video that covers a bit on sequencing,etc that applies to the discussion.

 

I am kind of skimming through this thread.  The last video in this post, I swear Tyler is describing me.  Normally I'm like, no he/she is talking about someone else, but in this case...  I do use my left leg for power, kind of thought that was the whole posting concept, but I use it like he describes in the beginning of the video.  

[glk]

4 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Insightful review: Findings from Dr. Kwon’s Golf Biomechanics Instructor Training Program Level 1

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/findings-from-dr-kwons-golf-biomechanics-instructor-training-lee/

If that interested you his mini series will cover a lot of those topics

 

he already has two videos in the fsp on his YouTube site - see playlists to get to easier

 

his schedule for the mini talks. Each is two hour zoom meeting with pdfs provided and access to filmed version for 6 months afterward.

1. Ground‐up (June 13)
2. Rhythm in golf swing (June 15)
3. Kinematic sequences (June 17)
4. The KGRAND=IO=SE swing principles (June 20)
5. Swing morphology (June 22)
6. Commonly observed motion pattern issues (June 24)

[Duffer Mark]

@glk I'm not sure I have the time to dedicate at this point. (Not sure I feel like spending the money either though it's not much.) I may go through Tyler's ~26 minute video "Understanding Power Sources" and think about Kwon's seminars some more.

[glk]

17 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

@glk I'm not sure I have the time to dedicate at this point. (Not sure I feel like spending the money either though it's not much.) I may go through Tyler's ~26 minute video "Understanding Power Sources" and think about Kwon's seminars some more.

Dr kwon mini lectures really aren’t focused on directly improving ones swing for the most part.  More focused on golf teachers or swing geeks (I’m no instructor, lol)
 

Tyler power source video is really good.     His arm movement of elite golfer is also really good - he actually defines the release, oh my.   But then most of his videos are good.    To the point and evidenced based -  asking him questions he’ll tell you he doesn’t know, it is a grey area, I’ll do a video, etc.

since most teachers have checked out of golfwrx, I’ve asked him questions based on topics here to clarify my u derstanding.    Great resource and since he now has playlists on being your own coach it has gotten even better since I joined in 2016.

Edited June 11, 2022 by glk

[glk]

intent to start swing
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cen48YwFXAJ/

[i*windows]

nice sequence of the Shurn

 

[RichieHunt]

I think I've found the missing piece to the puzzle with regards to my swing and I'm swing quite well now and have little issue with opening up too soon and getting the pressure traces and sequencing.

 

As I mentioned in previous posts, I had an issue with getting the pressure trace such where in transition the pressure was shifting more towards the toes of my left foot.  I found that I had a lower body issue where I would get too much pressure in my left heel in the backswing and the left knee would be too straight and the left ankle was not pronated by p4.  This would cause me to open up too early and get the pressure on my left heel in transition.

 

After countless swings paying close attention to that, I started to notice that the main reason why I struggle with that lower body motion is that my left foot is flared out too much at address.  The more it's flared out, the more difficult it can be to pronate the left ankle in the backswing and it's easier to get too much pressure on the left heel.  

 

It's not to say that one can't have lead foot flare at address, but the good players with foot flare are getting their left knee to flex and their ankle to pronate and not getting too much pressure on the lead heel.

 

I had tried to square up my left foot at address before and it didn't work very well.  But now I have more accurate intentions.  I know I can't be lazy with the turn and I need to have a 'wind up' as Dr. Kwon calls it.  That goes along with the 'shurn' and then it becomes quite easy to 'drift forward' in transition, get the pressure towards the toes of the left foot without opening up too soon and 'spittin' the bit.'  

 

I've seen a more penetrating ball flight.  It's a bit difficult to really 'go after it' right now because we've had head index in the 100's.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[PracticeSwinger]

8 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

I think I've found the missing piece to the puzzle with regards to my swing and I'm swing quite well now and have little issue with opening up too soon and getting the pressure traces and sequencing.

 

As I mentioned in previous posts, I had an issue with getting the pressure trace such where in transition the pressure was shifting more towards the toes of my left foot.  I found that I had a lower body issue where I would get too much pressure in my left heel in the backswing and the left knee would be too straight and the left ankle was not pronated by p4.  This would cause me to open up too early and get the pressure on my left heel in transition.

 

After countless swings paying close attention to that, I started to notice that the main reason why I struggle with that lower body motion is that my left foot is flared out too much at address.  The more it's flared out, the more difficult it can be to pronate the left ankle in the backswing and it's easier to get too much pressure on the left heel.  

 

It's not to say that one can't have lead foot flare at address, but the good players with foot flare are getting their left knee to flex and their ankle to pronate and not getting too much pressure on the lead heel.

 

I had tried to square up my left foot at address before and it didn't work very well.  But now I have more accurate intentions.  I know I can't be lazy with the turn and I need to have a 'wind up' as Dr. Kwon calls it.  That goes along with the 'shurn' and then it becomes quite easy to 'drift forward' in transition, get the pressure towards the toes of the left foot without opening up too soon and 'spittin' the bit.'  

 

I've seen a more penetrating ball flight.  It's a bit difficult to really 'go after it' right now because we've had head index in the 100's.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

Agree on all accounts with the flaring of the lead foot... I always have to find the 'sweet spot' in the amount of flare... less : I have to make sure I pivot through and not release down the line (but don't have any problem with the trace going from toes to heel in the downswing)... more : no difficulty pushing back the lead hip in transition/downswing (but finding that I'm 'getting out of my shots' too early / less compression as I'm already on my heel to begin with)... love that sport haha

[glk]

Just finished first week of mini talks.  Lots to digest and review.   Dr kwon has measured lots of different swings from elite to not so much and has correlated many aspects of the golf swing motion to club speed.   So his conclusion of an active backswing and mature transition is well supported with evidence.   As are his stepping drills to promote such motion.  These are mini talks and it is clear that he has even more information in his certification courses

[johnrobison]

3 minutes ago, glk said:

Just finished first week of mini talks.  Lots to digest and review.   Dr kwon has measured lots of different swings from elite to not so much and has correlated many aspects of the golf swing motion to club speed.   So his conclusion of an active backswing and mature transition is well supported with evidence.   As are his stepping drills to promote such motion.  These are mini talks and it is clear that he has even more information in his certification courses

Meaning... He's actually shown a causal relationship? Not simply that people with certain swing motion also have high speed, but that one results in the other?

[glk]

8 hours ago, johnrobison said:

Meaning... He's actually shown a causal relationship? Not simply that people with certain swing motion also have high speed, but that one results in the other?

Good question.  I had followed up via email and have at least one other question to ask - I was hoping to hear back today  but dr kwon said he’d answer questions at the next session for the entire group on the first day.   So I expect to hear something on Monday.    I was aware from a Sasho video a while back that high lead foot force can lead to higher chs but isn’t necessary - Gary woodland is a prime example - he has top 10 driver speed but has below tour average vertical ground force.

[Nels55]

The first drill in this video is one that Dr. Kwon has demonstrated quite often but this particular demo seemed to get through to me better:

 

[glk]

On 6/17/2022 at 10:32 AM, johnrobison said:

Meaning... He's actually shown a causal relationship? Not simply that people with certain swing motion also have high speed, but that one results in the other?

Got his answer.   As you would expect no causal relationship.   As I review parts of the talks he uses the word “tends”      Not a surprise given the complexity of the golf swing.

 

these 3 talks of 6 total hours are packed with stuff.   With 6 more hours to go.   For me it is going to take several sessions in whole or part to feel I have a decent grasp of the material.        

[Duffer Mark]

@glkHow would you compare/contrast what you've learned in Dr. Kwon's mini-talk so far with what you've learned from Ferrell on GSA?

[glk]

2 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

@glkHow would you compare/contrast what you've learned in Dr. Kwon's mini-talk so far with what you've learned from Ferrell on GSA?

dr kwon’s focus is full swing and Tyler’s teaching on full swing is very much aligned, imo.    Dr kwon has talked about more detail on the physics of the swing so in that sense he has added a lot more info on the what a body driven swing offers as advantages over a more arm driven swing - dumbed down version is potential for more chs with less physical effort while simplifying swing plane.    Tyler offers more info on arm movements in coordination with the body swing - details you would expect from an instructor which dr kwon isn’t.

some interesting tidbits.  Dr kwon has shown that x-factor is not correlated to chs - neither backswing or downswing versions but how one generates the x-factor is important - want a large backswing and small downswing x-factor so peak happens in early transition - a relatively large downswing x-factor is typically a poor sequencing with more lower body slide in an attempt to separate hips from shoulder motion.

 

in the kinematic sequence the angular peaks in the downswing need to happen close (like 10ms) and early in the downswing - the longer time the hips and arms have to decelerate the more potential for higher chs - so time is needed - shoulder decel doesn’t correlate to chs due to different patterns where they continue to accel - what he terms late shoulder acceleration.   He breaks the kinematic seq into 3 phases - backswing, transition, and downswing - only in the transition does he say the data shows it is important to have good separation in time and a well ordered sequence - he wants a complete sequence in transition but notes that the others can be partial - of course these happens in ms.     
 

and this stuff is just a handful of view graphs.     We’ve gone thru about 120 so far in 4 sessions.     He has structured the talks well - first three built up data to support todays talk which was on his GRANDIOSE swing principles.     Next two days are on swing shapes and common swing pattern issues.

 

And he definitely does not like freezer drills!

 

as I said before lots to unpack so I’ll be watching all or parts of these talks a few times.     
 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by glk

[me05501]

I’ve experimented with these feels some, and once in a while hit a rocket that goes 10-15% longer than my normal shot. Unfortunately I lose the feel quickly and start swaying instead of turning. 
 

I’ve decided to shelve it til the off season and work on it in my basement during the colder months. 

[MK7Golf21]

…

Edited June 22, 2022 by MK7Golf21