Dr Kwon

[airjammer]

14 hours ago, Ex Blade User said:

Grant wasn’t a big hitter, right?

 

it always baffles me that the people with the “best” swings don’t really win a lot. Anne van dam, Robert rock, grant, Mac o Grady etc etc 

The “best” swing and the “best” putters are usually not the ones that have the most wins, it’s the ones with the best overall games. 
 

The “best” swing and putter people win or on tour in spite of not having a great “X” part of their game. 

[Nels55]

20 hours ago, glk said:

Grant waite is dr kwon's model swing.   I dont know if they worked together or if Grant was just in the lab as part of dr kwon's research.

ive posted several of grant's swing cature from dtl, fo, a d even from above

 

Below is his grf force and moment data.   He has a dual peak torque  - first peak at top of backswing and second peak at p5 - this is the best, most efficient, grf torque pattern.    In one if dr kwon's studies of 66 elite swings 9 players exhibited this pattern.   Take his certification courses and grant will be mentioned frequently.  His grf force pattern is also shown as a model pattern.

 

Grants's grf force pattern

 

 

 

Thanks for the info much appreciated!  LOL after more then a year of doing the drills my swing motion has actually improved but does not look much like Grant's.  I have way to much lateral motion from face on for instance my head moves back or away from the target a good six inches on my backswing.  When I settle things down so that my swing video looks more like Grant's I do seem to hit the ball cleaner.  

[PNWGuy]

 

20 hours ago, Ex Blade User said:

Grant wasn’t a big hitter, right?

 

it always baffles me that the people with the “best” swings don’t really win a lot. Anne van dam, Robert rock, grant, Mac o Grady etc etc 

 

IMHO:

 

Athletic abilty + Techique + Mental Game = Results

 

Occasional winners are excellent in one element, consitent winners in two elements and the greats are elite in all three.

 

Grant ranks very highly in technique for sure.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by PNWGuy

[glk]

50 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

 

Thanks for the info much appreciated!  LOL after more then a year of doing the drills my swing motion has actually improved but does not look much like Grant's.  I have way to much lateral motion from face on for instance my head moves back or away from the target a good six inches on my backswing.  When I settle things down so that my swing video looks more like Grant's I do seem to hit the ball cleaner.  

Not unusual  to shift too much in both directions and then bring it back.    Some players have a more noticeable shift than others.    

Dr. Kwon talks about two rhythms - horizontal and vertical - of the two he places more importance on vertical but it is the horizontal that setups the ability to have good vertical.     Think of the shift just enough to align the hip,knee,ankle to support a good vertical push with the leg - Dr Kwon talks about standing tall on the trail side, Dana D talks about getting the right side high.    When done well the lead side naturally unweights and then the push to the lead side becomes a fall - but again to align the leg so one can do a really good push in the downswing.    Given anatomy, stance width some are going to have a more noticeable shift - Grant doesn't show much to start but his shift back is pretty clear.

 

Josh has a nice drill to for this - can be done with something less high than in the clip.   The forces comes from slowing down the fall not from trying to squat and jump.

https://www.instagram.com/p/ClKYVsyAH4R/?hl=en

 

bonus drill.  https://www.instagram.com/p/CmwhY9BBgRd/?hl=en

Edited January 14, 2023 by glk

[Gibbs]

Wasnt Grant Waite know to be a stack and tilter? 

[glk]

to me dr kwon embodies what a golf lesson should be.   Focus on overall motion then hone in on particular details.  And he has adapted  from early on jumping into the step drills to now first focusing on the body motion without a club  Here he takes a player that would, i imagine, be called an upper core player and quickly gets him using his whole body.  Due to the players previous right arm motion plenty of time is spent to address this area. He addresses more arm/wrist motion than ive previously seen including casting too much and left arm adducting too much.  He talks a lot about hand motion plane.   And he never talks shallowing, lol - ive spent  40+ hours in zoom classes with dr kwon and never has he talked about shallowing - only time ive heard him talk about it was when asked a question in a be better golf video and then it was only a few minutes    As dr kwon has told me current motion or anthropometric measures do not determine how a person can move - so beware of people who tell you because you measure x or currently move like y that you must swing a certain way.
 

 

 

[Nels55]

50 minutes ago, glk said:

to me dr kwon embodies what a golf lesson should be.   Focus on overall motion then hone in on particular details.  And he has adapted  from early on jumping into the step drills to now first focusing on the body motion without a club  Here he takes a player that would, i imagine, be called an upper core player and quickly gets him using his whole body.  Due to the players previous right arm motion plenty of time is spent to address this area. He addresses more arm/wrist motion than ive previously seen including casting too much and left arm adducting too much.  He talks a lot about hand motion plane.   And he never talks shallowing, lol - ive spent  40+ hours in zoom classes with dr kwon and never has he talked about shallowing - only time ive heard him talk about it was when asked a question in a be better golf video and then it was only a few minutes    As dr kwon has told me current motion or anthropometric measures do not determine how a person can move - so beware of people who tell you because you measure x or currently move like y that you must swing a certain way.
 

 

 

You mention upper core and I don't know if the original swing would be upper core possibly not classifiable. 

 

Dr. Wright did do a lot of research on his methodology of determining a golfers core or best swing pattern.  It is interesting stuff.  Dr. Wright was a golf teacher who became frustrated that some golfers could not learn the lower core swing that he used and taught.  He did the research assisted by Frank Jobe and another guy and came up with the core theory where different body types are classified on a large number of core levels and given swing fundamentals based on that level. For instance Larry Rinker is max upper core and his sister is lower core.  I believe that the system is based on body measurements such as length of certain limbs and so on for the most part. 

 

Is Wright Balance correct in their assessments?  I don't know.  Possibly Dr. Kwon's students ends up in the same place depending on a students abilities. In the end good teachers help their students to play better.   

[glk]

35 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

You mention upper core and I don't know if the original swing would be upper core possibly not classifiable. 

 

Dr. Wright did do a lot of research on his methodology of determining a golfers core or best swing pattern.  It is interesting stuff.  Dr. Wright was a golf teacher who became frustrated that some golfers could not learn the lower core swing that he used and taught.  He did the research assisted by Frank Jobe and another guy and came up with the core theory where different body types are classified on a large number of core levels and given swing fundamentals based on that level. For instance Larry Rinker is max upper core and his sister is lower core.  I believe that the system is based on body measurements such as length of certain limbs and so on for the most part. 

 

Is Wright Balance correct in their assessments?  I don't know.  Possibly Dr. Kwon's students ends up in the same place depending on a students abilities. In the end good teachers help their students to play better.   

I have in the past searched for any research by dr wright but habe never found anything associated directly with the golf swing   I habe fiund articles he has written which are a description if if you are x then yiu eed to be doing a,b,c    No evidence on the correlation between these core levels and the movements was apparent.   Similar to mike adams who has measured a lot but have no evidence that anything he measures correlates to anything he prescribes.    So im  skeptical.    I asked dr kwon about both and he only asked if i knew if any statical analysis work done - given his extensive references in his research papers i would think if something pertinent was written then it would be likely that dr kwon discovered it.

 

If you are aware of research that applies i would love to be able to pass it along to dr kwon.

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, glk said:

to me dr kwon embodies what a golf lesson should be.   Focus on overall motion then hone in on particular details.  

The mind should have a very clear image of the motion required to create force in the clubhead. It's easier to trust momentum to create force than it is to trust a position. 

 

 

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, glk said:

I have in the past searched for any research by dr wright but habe never found anything associated directly with the golf swing   I habe fiund articles he has written which are a description if if you are x then yiu eed to be doing a,b,c    No evidence on the correlation between these core levels and the movements was apparent.   Similar to mike adams who has measured a lot but have no evidence that anything he measures correlates to anything he prescribes.    So im  skeptical.    I asked dr kwon about both and he only asked if i knew if any statical analysis work done - given his extensive references in his research papers i would think if something pertinent was written then it would be likely that dr kwon discovered it.

 

If you are aware of research that applies i would love to be able to pass it along to dr kwon.

Sounds like you probably know more about it then I do.  I did read what I could find and watched a lot of youtube videos on the subject a while back but I don't recall seeing any reference to research papers.  I did look into getting measured as there are a couple of guys not too far away who are checked out to do the measurements but I never pulled the trigger.  I can say that some of the measurements and claims that I saw on the web do look a little bit on the weird side of such things.  Some I remember being very subjective and basically creating a pattern based on the current ingrained swing of the golfer being measured.  Anyway I will stick with Dr. Kwon's teaching for the foreseeable future.

[glk]

The last video I posted the guy quickly picked up the shurn but struggled to use the arms well.  In this video it is the opposite - he really struggles to get the shurn - lots of tensions - as with the previous, in this video dr kwon really goes into detail on the shurn and how the pushing the ground rotates the body - pelvis and torso versus spinning your butt.  He also goes into detail on the vertical and how the knee has a little bend during the shift so one can push.    Long ago I recall using vijay Singh as a tempo cue - small world.

 

id add that he has the guy do plenty of different motions to break thru    Great to gO along with these drills - particularly like the reach and push out.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by glk

[1puttit]

Hi guys - Long time lurker. I've been following this thread with interest and have been working on some of Dr. Kwon's teachings for the past few months. As much as I try I feel like I'm just not "getting it". So I decided to go see the man himself. On 1/29/23 I had a session with Dr. Kwon. Feel free to ask me anything about the experience. Based on the feedback I'm focusing a lot on strengthening my legs so I can use them more in my swing. I had a right knee replacement a couple of years ago and I just haven't got the leg strength back. Focusing on doing squats and kettlebell drills at the moment.
 

 

[Zitlow]

I like Dr. Kwon's style of teaching a total blended motion verses trying to build a swing around isolated individual components. The body swinging the arms is good stuff, the arms swinging the body causes pivot stall. 

 

[KD1]

48 minutes ago, 1puttit said:

Hi guys - Long time lurker. I've been following this thread with interest and have been working on some of Dr. Kwon's teachings for the past few months. As much as I try I feel like I'm just not "getting it". So I decided to go see the man himself. On 1/29/23 I had a session with Dr. Kwon. Feel free to ask me anything about the experience. Based on the feedback I'm focusing a lot on strengthening my legs so I can use them more in my swing. I had a right knee replacement a couple of years ago and I just haven't got the leg strength back. Focusing on doing squats and kettlebell drills at the moment.
 

 

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How far out was his schedule?

[1puttit]

8 minutes ago, KD1 said:

How far out was his schedule?

About 2.5 months. I booked my session in early November.

[KD1]

8 minutes ago, 1puttit said:

About 2.5 months. I booked my session in early November.

Thanks! I'm actually local to him. I'm hoping to get approved to get on the schedule. I just need to get some swing videos.

[1puttit]

6 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Thanks! I'm actually local to him. I'm hoping to get approved to get on the schedule. I just need to get some swing videos.

If you're local it'll be much easier to book with him. He has sessions available during the week. I needed a weekend slot since I flew in from Colorado. But I did get a round in on Saturday, so not all bad 😀

[KD1]

4 minutes ago, 1puttit said:

If you're local it'll be much easier to book with him. He has sessions available during the week. I needed a weekend slot since I flew in from Colorado. But I did get a round in on Saturday, so not all bad 😀

Where'd you play?

TWU used to have their own course up until just a few years ago.

 

[1puttit]

2 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Where'd you play?

TWU used to have their own course up until just a few years ago.

 

I played Frisco Lakes. Having not played for a couple of months I was just looking to knock the ball around a bit and see where my game is. Hard to adjust from playing at 6,500 feet to sea level - I'm hitting even shorter than I thought! Even though I am not doing Dr Kwon's motion right yet, it has paid benefits and my swing is better. I'm an 11 hdcp and playing from the whites at Frisco Lakes I managed to card a 78. Not bad for an old guy who can't use his legs.

[glk]

So you just did the reprogramming and not the spandex analysis?     Homework?   Sign the wall?
lots of swings so some breaks along the way?       Biggest takeaway?
 

i finished the certification classes and  he extended an invite to all who completed them.   No idea if he gives any priority. 

[KD1]

13 minutes ago, 1puttit said:

I played Frisco Lakes. Having not played for a couple of months I was just looking to knock the ball around a bit and see where my game is. Hard to adjust from playing at 6,500 feet to sea level - I'm hitting even shorter than I thought! Even though I am not doing Dr Kwon's motion right yet, it has paid benefits and my swing is better. I'm an 11 hdcp and playing from the whites at Frisco Lakes I managed to card a 78. Not bad for an old guy who can't use his legs.

Nice! That was my "home" course at my last house... Rather home driving range, the green fees are a little pricey for my skill level. I ran into some of the Good Good guys last time I was there.

[1puttit]

51 minutes ago, glk said:

So you just did the reprogramming and not the spandex analysis?     Homework?   Sign the wall?
lots of swings so some breaks along the way?       Biggest takeaway?
 

i finished the certification classes and  he extended an invite to all who completed them.   No idea if he gives any priority. 

Yes, I just did the reprograming session which is about 1.5 - 2 hours. The 3d analysis is for really good players like pros and aspiring pros. I did not get to sign the wall as that too is reserved for the really good players. 

So the session itself starts with doing some warm up swings. You don't see it in the videos but he has  K Golf simulator setup which records video of your swing. 

After the initial warm up it's basically what you see in the video. Lots of 5-10 continuous swings with 1-2 minute breaks in between for instruction. The drills he has you do are really tailored to what you need to work on. So in my session I did body only drills, lots of rope drills, and swings with the orange whip and driver. He was really focused on trying to get me to move my legs and lower body better.  I was surprised he didn't have me do Kettle Bell swings but I guess he was more focused on my movement and what would help the most.

My biggest takeaway is I need to strengthen and use my legs MUCH more. This does not come naturally to me (as you can tell from the video) so it's going to take a lot of concentrated effort.

He doesn't really give you any specific homework so I asked what 3-4 things I should work on. Basically work on really using my legs, lots of continuous rope swings where i try to switch from  both hands to left hand only to right hand only. And feeling the "flow" of the club/rope, taking more time at the top of BS (Vijaaaaaay Singh!) 

 

[Nels55]

Here is a look at Ben Hogan's re-centering movement.  I think that Dr. Kwon would approve?

 

[Hawkeye77]

On 1/27/2023 at 12:32 PM, glk said:

to me dr kwon embodies what a golf lesson should be.   Focus on overall motion then hone in on particular details.  And he has adapted  from early on jumping into the step drills to now first focusing on the body motion without a club  Here he takes a player that would, i imagine, be called an upper core player and quickly gets him using his whole body.  Due to the players previous right arm motion plenty of time is spent to address this area. He addresses more arm/wrist motion than ive previously seen including casting too much and left arm adducting too much.  He talks a lot about hand motion plane.   And he never talks shallowing, lol - ive spent  40+ hours in zoom classes with dr kwon and never has he talked about shallowing - only time ive heard him talk about it was when asked a question in a be better golf video and then it was only a few minutes    As dr kwon has told me current motion or anthropometric measures do not determine how a person can move - so beware of people who tell you because you measure x or currently move like y that you must swing a certain way.
 

 

 

 

I know you are pretty invested in this and have a lot of knowledge in relation to the golf swing, but what about this lesson is what a golf lesson should be?

 

He gets him moving, but after over an hour and a half, he's still moving incorrectly and I get what he's trying to get him to do, but it's still a lot of "you are doing that" and "just do this".  I guess it's a different way of approaching things, whatever works, but I don't see much in the way of effective communication directed at "reaching" this student.  Looks much the same as another lesson posted where it looks like the guy had already been watching too many videos of Dr. Kwon and was ready to go without even looking or listening and didn't do much looking or listening, lol, just off on his merry way and says he still can't do it, and it's a simple motion to start with.  Point being, I don't see much different in trying to "reach" that student and it honestly looked like a complete waste of time (to me) but some positive results in the honeymoon period, which is good, but not necessarily confirmed with any before/after. 

 

Maybe it just all looks to vcr home workout to me and I'm not opening my mind to the possibilities, fair enough.  Would love to see before and after golf swings on grass actual shots to see if anything really changed or made a difference in the student's golf swing/game.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[MK7Golf21]

58 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

I know you are pretty invested in this and have a lot of knowledge in relation to the golf swing, but what about this lesson is what a golf lesson should be?

 

He gets him moving, but after over an hour and a half, he's still moving incorrectly and I get what he's trying to get him to do, but it's still a lot of "you are doing that" and "just do this".  I guess it's a different way of approaching things, whatever works, but I don't see much in the way of effective communication directed at "reaching" this student.  Looks much the same as another lesson posted where it looks like the guy had already been watching too many videos of Dr. Kwon and was ready to go without even looking or listening and didn't do much looking or listening, lol, just off on his merry way and says he still can't do it, and it's a simple motion to start with.  Point being, I don't see much different in trying to "reach" that student and it honestly looked like a complete waste of time (to me) but some positive results in the honeymoon period, which is good, but not necessarily confirmed with any before/after. 

 

Maybe it just all looks to vcr home workout to me and I'm not opening my mind to the possibilities, fair enough.  Would love to see before and after golf swings on grass actual shots to see if anything really changed or made a difference in the student's golf swing/game.

 

 

 

I get what you are saying in regard to Kwon's lessons, they pretty much follow the same pattern with everyone. The thing I do like is he focuses on movement. After watching his lessons I feel like just making an overall athletic move without focusing on micro moves.

 

The guy in this particular lesson has some ingrained stuff that would take a long time to really fix. His backswing pivot and arm structure is terrible. It takes guys a long time to fix across the line and this guy had a major case. In this particular lesson I thought he did pretty good, I could see a change at the end of the lesson with his backswing pivot and arm structure at the top, was definitely better at the top and the plane on the downswing was better as a result. Was one of the better lessons from kwon I've seen. Granted this guy never hit a ball and I would bet he probably went right back to where he started but need to get there first.

[Golfbeat]

I really like the Dr Kwon way of improving the body motions but golf lessons should in the end include ball striking. Are there any people out there that are consistently striking the ball better after the Kwonification? We all know that a beautiful practice swing is no guarantee at all for an effective ball striking golf swing.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, Golfbeat said:

I really like the Dr Kwon way of improving the body motions but golf lessons should in the end include ball striking. Are there any people out there that are consistently striking the ball better after the Kwonification? We all know that a beautiful practice swing is no guarantee at all for an effective ball striking golf swing.

I get what you’re saying, along with a few others that mentioned this, I view it as a prerequisite to really good ball striking… if you don’t move your body half decently and not getting in your own way in the first place - then there’s no chance you will be elite in ball striking… we see this day in day out on lesson tees and ranges - people are dead just in the way they setup, move… once you got that part down, then you can focus on striking deep diving and figure out how to get better there 

[Golfbeat]

4 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I get what you’re saying, along with a few others that mentioned this, I view it as a prerequisite to really good ball striking… if you don’t move your body half decently and not getting in your own way in the first place - then there’s no chance you will be elite in ball striking… we see this day in day out on lesson tees and ranges - people are dead just in the way they setup, move… once you got that part down, then you can focus on striking deep diving and figure out how to get better there 

 

I think we are saying the same thing although there are instructors who focus on striking the ball and creating a certain ball flight and believe that the body will accommodate naturally.

[Soloman1]

4 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Granted this guy never hit a ball and I would bet he probably went right back to where he started

 

I’m going to speak the unspeakable. I’m wearing my flame suit, so fire away.

 

I’ve seen video of claiming X increase in swing speed, but they’re using the drill of starting momentum with a forward swing first and not hitting a ball. It’s irrelevant if it’s not a swing used during play and is not a legitimate increase in speed.

 

There are many instructors who can increase swing speed and many ways to do it. So much depends on the physical attributes or limitations of the person. I see it all the time. Forces in the swing are well known and not a mystery.

 

All of the speed a person can muster is useless if the club head geometry at impact isn’t optimal. The average recreational player will gain a lot by hitting it in the middle of the damn face consistently, instead of chasing that one in 10 drive. But, that’s human nature.

 

I get a little heartburn with academics moonlighting. I’ve seen one trying to hold a zoom class while off making money away from their students. Tenure be damned. It seems like more of a way to embrace their hobby with the university and tuition picking up the tab. If you want to teach, buy your own equipment, quit your job and teach golf like all of the other instructors who aren’t subsidized .

Putting on my flamesuit . . .

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

2 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

I’m going to speak the unspeakable. I’m wearing my flame suit, so fire away.

 

I’ve seen video of claiming X increase in swing speed, but they’re using the drill of starting momentum with a forward swing first and not hitting a ball. It’s irrelevant if it’s not a swing used during play and is not a legitimate increase in speed.

 

There are many instructors who can increase swing speed and many ways to do it. So much depends on the physical attributes or limitations of the person. I see it all the time. Forces in the swing are well known and not a mystery.

 

All of the speed a person can muster is useless if the club head geometry at impact isn’t optimal. The average recreational player will gain a lot by hitting it in the middle of the damn face consistently, instead of chasing that one in 10 drive. But, that’s human nature.

 

I get a little heartburn with academics moonlighting. I’ve seen one trying to hold a zoom class while off making money away from their students. Tenure be damned. It seems like more of a way to embrace their hobby with the university and tuition picking up the tab. If you want to teach, buy your own equipment, quit your job and teach golf like all of the other instructors who aren’t subsidized .

Putting on my flamesuit . . .

 

 

Not sure you’ll get flamed away… I would think most would agree with your overall assessment… What I find interesting in the speed training, no ball, swoosh instruction is that in my mind it’s a prerequisite to decent golf (I’m not even talking great or elite here)… 95% of people have awful setup, moves that blocks them from speedy swings (and I have yet to see a good player with a slowish swing)…

 

Get them to try and swing a sledgehammer to a ball in front of them and all hell brakes loose… just being able to do this and they would learn so much in forces (even though it’s well documented not sure it’s well known, not understood and definitely not applied optimally)… be able to do this repeatedly with good balance (with lesser weight obviously) and then - you have the foundations to become a better ball striker