Dr Kwon

[airjammer]

22 hours ago, glk said:

Another good example     This guy shows a reverse spiral swing - he is dropping his trail shoulder and then turns a lot - he also has an unusual late shoulder acceleration pattern due to this motion pattern     Takes a while to get  him to learn the vertical motion and then how to throw his arms via using the body - he wants to turn everything altogether.   Sound is lost a bit toward the end but it starts again.    Good example of why dr kwon has his single arm drills and how he wants folks to throw the arms - let it go.

 

 

This guy seems to follow what Milo lines would call towing the club. Dr Kwon says in this video that apparently this guys verticals were late. That seems to be a big problem across golfers including low handicaps. 
 

Seems like Milo Lines is running out of Youtube video ideas…I’d like to see him address how to tow the club and still maintain correct vertical timing. 

[Duffer Mark]

If I’ve noticed correctly, Kwon doesn’t like the right cheek against the wall drill in the backswing. Does anyone know why he has a problem with it? And what does he suggest as the alternative?
 

[glk]

2 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

If I’ve noticed correctly, Kwon doesn’t like the right cheek against the wall drill in the backswing. Does anyone know why he has a problem with it? And what does he suggest as the alternative?
 

Dr kwon doesnt like drills that keep the  butt touching the wall all the time.    promotes moving the pelvis and body backward.    And thereby making it so one cant use the ground effectively - makes it hard to push with the lead leg.
 

 

Pelvis moves forward about an inch by end of pelvis rotation and then backward until around p5 but it doesn't return to it's starting point.   Active leg action with consistent swinging will not keep the butt against the wall.

 

he offers no alternative but understands for someone that really stands up that this drill may be necessary but not with the butt starting against the wall and always staying on the wall - start off wall, kiss the wall in the backswing with the right side and then it will come off and maybe kiss the wall with the lead side in the follow thru - my suggestion not his.

 

graph of cm of pelvis for average of 66 elite swings in his study.  And overhead view of grante waite swing where you can see pelvis move forward and not return to starting point.   Essentially lead side goes more forward than trail side goes back - due to trail side being weight bearing side in backswing and lead unweighting - cant move trail side back as far since it has more force acting on it - it will move up and a bit back.   Folks that spin their butt tend to move right side more back and slide pelvis toward target in backswing.    Folks that overdo the forward motion usually don't move the trail side at all and move lead side much more forward - see this frequently on here with posted swings.   Whew.
 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by glk

[gentles]

Nearly a year into this thread, I'd like to hear from people who had some success using step drills and rope swings to promote a more active backswing and better pressure shift.

 

What was the trigger that helped the drills transition into real golf swing? Did you just do a ton of step drills and let the change on course take care of itself? Were you feeling the pressure shift as a swing feel? did you try step swings on course? Exaggerations? 

 

Please share experiences and what you're still working on now. thanks!

 

 

[Hilts1969]

On 11/17/2022 at 3:21 PM, airjammer said:

This guy seems to follow what Milo lines would call towing the club. Dr Kwon says in this video that apparently this guys verticals were late. That seems to be a big problem across golfers including low handicaps. 
 

Seems like Milo Lines is running out of Youtube video ideas…I’d like to see him address how to tow the club and still maintain correct vertical timing. 

 

Not sure it's fair to be saying milo lines is running out of you tube ideas on a thread where there is literally hours and hours of videos of people doing rope and kettle drills without a ball or no idea how the shot looked with a ball and being told to let it go.

 

Unless the arms don't move correctly in which case you can't let it go I guess:-)

[airjammer]

6 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Not sure it's fair to be saying milo lines is running out of you tube ideas on a thread where there is literally hours and hours of videos of people doing rope and kettle drills without a ball or no idea how the shot looked with a ball and being told to let it go.

 

Unless the arms don't move correctly in which case you can't let it go I guess:-)

The only reason I say Milo is running out of ideas is because he keeps putting up viewer polls as what they want to see. At some point everyone runs out of ways saying the same thing and eventually it just boils down to everyone own individual issues once you know what to do but can’t quite get it. 
 

I’m assuming Dr. Kwon choose the term “Let it go” carefully but to your point after hours of watching his youtube videos, I literally have no idea what that really mean. Maybe @glk can expand on that means actually because if you use a pressure board and swing you back with relaxed arms as soon as you pressure the board the left it starts my upper torso to rotate back towards the target while simultaneously my left arm compresses against my chest and then that motion propels my left arm off my chest. 

[glk]

2 hours ago, airjammer said:

The only reason I say Milo is running out of ideas is because he keeps putting up viewer polls as what they want to see. At some point everyone runs out of ways saying the same thing and eventually it just boils down to everyone own individual issues once you know what to do but can’t quite get it. 
 

I’m assuming Dr. Kwon choose the term “Let it go” carefully but to your point after hours of watching his youtube videos, I literally have no idea what that really mean. Maybe @glk can expand on that means actually because if you use a pressure board and swing you back with relaxed arms as soon as you pressure the board the left it starts my upper torso to rotate back towards the target while simultaneously my left arm compresses against my chest and then that motion propels my left arm off my chest. 

Dr kwon separates power generation and arm function.   Body develops power, arms/wrists (shoulders too) supply direction.    If you do the swing motion dr kwon demonstrates (grant waite being his favorite example) then max torque is developed by shaft vertical downswing.   At this point he'll say let it go or throw - meaning, to me, use that torque to throw the arms or let them go - give in to the momentum developed and use the body to throw the arms.   Haerim dance is an example too - https://www.instagram.com/p/CQ5x_5wHtD3/

  Pulling with the arms isnt necessary and will just interfere.    His one arm swing drills on his youtube page are to help work on coordinating this motion at slower speeds - that last reprogramming video (nick s) i posted the guy had a hard time with this since he really spun his shoulder late.

[Golfbeat]

Clarification for people who have still an issue with the "Letting it go".

 

 

[chigolfer1]

On 11/29/2022 at 6:47 AM, Golfbeat said:

Clarification for people who have still an issue with the "Letting it go".

 

 

 

 

This is the exact same thing the AMG guys show with the demonstration where their students literally don't know how to get the arms down without moving their whole body.  Then Sean steps in and says, just move your arms down.  This student doesn't seem to understand he can independently move his arms.  It's pretty frustrating to watch at around 1:24:00 but he does eventually get it.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by chigolfer1

[RobertBaron]

Sounds kinda like he's describing the Malaska Move and the Gem "Stab" move from this BBG vid:

 

 

[Duffer Mark]

In one of Dr. Kwon's recent reprogramming videos with 16 yr old Tadgh, he mentions that a positive aspect of the young man's back swing is that he keeps the club close to the body. I have seen in other videos where Kwon will place the club close to the body at TOS, but I don't recall seeing him explain the best path, or way, to get the club close to the body. I'm wondering if that club position helps with the draw the sword action advocates. If I reverse the sword drawing motion in my mind, it seems like it would be akin to putting the sword back in the sheath at the top. But I'm not sure that makes sense...

 

Any ideas how Kwon attempts to get people to the top with the club close?

[MK7Golf21]

19 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

In one of Dr. Kwon's recent reprogramming videos with 16 yr old Tadgh, he mentions that a positive aspect of the young man's back swing is that he keeps the club close to the body. I have seen in other videos where Kwon will place the club close to the body at TOS, but I don't recall seeing him explain the best path, or way, to get the club close to the body. I'm wondering if that club position helps with the draw the sword action advocates. If I reverse the sword drawing motion in my mind, it seems like it would be akin to putting the sword back in the sheath at the top. But I'm not sure that makes sense...

 

Any ideas how Kwon attempts to get people to the top with the club close?

 

I'd be interested in hearing how he recommends keeping the club close to body. The idea I believe is like the figure skater rotating and everything comes in close to the body to rotate the fastest and arms outreach (the club) to slow down the body. I thought glk made a past on this but can't find it. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[chigolfer1]

1 hour ago, Duffer Mark said:

In one of Dr. Kwon's recent reprogramming videos with 16 yr old Tadgh, he mentions that a positive aspect of the young man's back swing is that he keeps the club close to the body. I have seen in other videos where Kwon will place the club close to the body at TOS, but I don't recall seeing him explain the best path, or way, to get the club close to the body. I'm wondering if that club position helps with the draw the sword action advocates. If I reverse the sword drawing motion in my mind, it seems like it would be akin to putting the sword back in the sheath at the top. But I'm not sure that makes sense...

 

Any ideas how Kwon attempts to get people to the top with the club close?

 

Off topic but it sort of creeps me out that he calls it "reprogramming"  lol

[Ifelloffladder]

On 11/30/2022 at 10:36 AM, chigolfer1 said:

 

 

This is the exact same thing the AMG guys show with the demonstration where their students literally don't know how to get the arms down without moving their whole body.  Then Sean steps in and says, just move your arms down.  This student doesn't seem to understand he can independently move his arms.  It's pretty frustrating to watch at around 1:24:00 but he does eventually get it.

 

 

 

lol!! Thought it was just me. Just swing the fkj; club down, man! lol

[glk]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

I'd be interested in hearing how he recommends keeping the club close to body. The idea I believe is like the figure skater rotating and everything comes in close to the body to rotate the fastest and arms outreach (the club) to slow down the body. I thought glk made a past on this but can't find it. 

I posted in the NTC thread with photo's of Monte as example A.    It is close to the body from transition to early downswing.    It just involves not casting the wrists early, a mature backswing, and he recommends the draw the sword intent (arrow from quiver is the same) .   Casting is a speed killer and elite swings don't begin to unhinge the lead wrist until p5 and the earliest and some even closer to shaft vertical downswing - this is start - believe AMG has a instagram video with measurements on this but I just don't want to plow thru their 100s of posts.

 

Here are the photos of Monte.    Face on is notorious for exaggerating wrist c0ck (Sergio is example A) so I imagine Monte has lost some unhinge between these two photos - first is P5 (or EDA, early downswing arms in Dr Kwon nomenclature).  Second is close to shaft vertical or ED , early downswing a la dr kwon.    In any case Monte is set to really unhinge right after the second photo.

 

  

 

[Simpsonia]

16 hours ago, glk said:

I posted in the NTC thread with photo's of Monte as example A.    It is close to the body from transition to early downswing.    It just involves not casting the wrists early, a mature backswing, and he recommends the draw the sword intent (arrow from quiver is the same) .   Casting is a speed killer and elite swings don't begin to unhinge the lead wrist until p5 and the earliest and some even closer to shaft vertical downswing - this is start - believe AMG has a instagram video with measurements on this but I just don't want to plow thru their 100s of posts.

 

Here are the photos of Monte.    Face on is notorious for exaggerating wrist c0ck (Sergio is example A) so I imagine Monte has lost some unhinge between these two photos - first is P5 (or EDA, early downswing arms in Dr Kwon nomenclature).  Second is close to shaft vertical or ED , early downswing a la dr kwon.    In any case Monte is set to really unhinge right after the second photo.

 

 

 

This has always been one of my biggest confusions with NTC. I've been working with Tyler on fixing my release and getting to mostly full ulnar deviation at impact. In my questions to him, he says the unhinge comes almost entirely from the vertical component of the pivot, ie the lift of the lead shoulder, which starts around P5.5. In the intent with NTC is it just the intent to guide the hands to an unhinged position by impact while keeping tension-free wrists, or is there actual active intent to use the wrist muscles (even though that would introduce some amount of tension) to get unhinged that are held in check by the resistance of the clubhead until the change in direction around P5.5 from that lift of the lead shoulder. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Simpsonia

[Duffer Mark]

Dr. Kwon answered me on one of his YouTube videos: At the top, you can keep the club close to the body having sufficient wrist c0ck. On the way down, you can keep it close by delaying the release.

 

 

[glk]

35 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

This has always been one of my biggest confusions with NTC. I've been working with Tyler on fixing my release and getting to mostly full ulnar deviation at impact. In my questions to him, he says the unhinge comes almost entirely from the vertical component of the pivot, ie the lift of the lead shoulder, which starts around P5.5. In the intent with NTC is it just the intent to guide the hands to an unhinged position by impact while keeping tension-free wrists, or is there actual active intent to use the wrist muscles (even though that would introduce some amount of tension) to get unhinged that are held in check by the resistance of the clubhead until the change in direction around P5.5 from that lift of the lead shoulder. 

I believe ntc is focused in getting the hands and wrists to move properly (backswing and downswing).    So it will depend on the person and their current swing and this can involve a conscious effort to produce a desired motion.      Ultimately, you want to swing like you eat - you dont have to think about it.

[RoyalTroon]

18 hours ago, glk said:

...a mature backswing...

 

Another useless neologism covering decades old material. 

[Duffer Mark]

48 minutes ago, RonJon said:

 

Another useless neologism covering decades old material. 

Thanks for the helpful, clarifying comment.

[jonsnow]

22 hours ago, glk said:

I posted in the NTC thread with photo's of Monte as example A.    It is close to the body from transition to early downswing.    It just involves not casting the wrists early, a mature backswing, and he recommends the draw the sword intent (arrow from quiver is the same) .   Casting is a speed killer and elite swings don't begin to unhinge the lead wrist until p5 and the earliest and some even closer to shaft vertical downswing - this is start - believe AMG has a instagram video with measurements on this but I just don't want to plow thru their 100s of posts.

 

Here are the photos of Monte.    Face on is notorious for exaggerating wrist c0ck (Sergio is example A) so I imagine Monte has lost some unhinge between these two photos - first is P5 (or EDA, early downswing arms in Dr Kwon nomenclature).  Second is close to shaft vertical or ED , early downswing a la dr kwon.    In any case Monte is set to really unhinge right after the second photo.

 

  

 

I wear my sword on the left side of my belt. I guess Dr. Kwon wears his on his back? I can relate to the arrow from a quiver description better...

[glk]

11 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

I wear my sword on the left side of my belt. I guess Dr. Kwon wears his on his back? I can relate to the arrow from a quiver description better...

Korean ninja?

[wantstonotsuck]

58 minutes ago, glk said:

Korean ninja?

 

[glk]

Nice drill from todd on how to create work on the important vertical rhythm - key to creating unweighting, a good moment arm, and ultimately more torque which transfers into club head momentum.  add that vertical to the shurn.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CmPAskyMmPV/

 

 

[Nels55]

I am curious if this swing by Grant Waite is very close to the Kwon model?  Is this a nearly perfect swing or is before Kwon worked with Grant and possibly improved the motion?

 

[glk]

23 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I am curious if this swing by Grant Waite is very close to the Kwon model?  Is this a nearly perfect swing or is before Kwon worked with Grant and possibly improved the motion?

 

Grant waite is dr kwon's model swing.   I dont know if they worked together or if Grant was just in the lab as part of dr kwon's research.

ive posted several of grant's swing cature from dtl, fo, a d even from above

 

Below is his grf force and moment data.   He has a dual peak torque  - first peak at top of backswing and second peak at p5 - this is the best, most efficient, grf torque pattern.    In one if dr kwon's studies of 66 elite swings 9 players exhibited this pattern.   Take his certification courses and grant will be mentioned frequently.  His grf force pattern is also shown as a model pattern.

 

 

Grants's grf force pattern

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by glk

[Ex Blade User]

20 minutes ago, glk said:

Grant waite is dr kwon's model swing.   I dont know if they worked together or if Grant was just in the lab as part of dr kwon's research.

ive posted several of grant's swing cature from dtl, fo, a d even from above

 

Below is his grf force and moment data.   He has a dual peak torque  - first peak at top of backswing and second peak at p5 - this is the best, most efficient, grf torque pattern.    In one if dr kwon's studies of 66 elite swings 9 players exhibited this pattern.   Take his certification courses and grant will be mentioned frequently.  His grf force pattern is also shown as a model pattern.

 

/cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/F03CDF63-E847-4B85-88D6-5264A99C1C7A.jpeg.425d2f20aad2f04b23dcc9d96f44a141.jpeg

 

Grants's grf force pattern

/cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/610045b6f775786869a4f03bbc6ea866d3e558421809bdcec86344355da3a40c/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2022_12/CC8A121B-1EEB-4ED5-99C8-2CC48F8EE0EC.jpeg.3394ef93781ce6211ff335b8a4bf60df.jpeg

 

 

Grant wasn’t a big hitter, right?

 

it always baffles me that the people with the “best” swings don’t really win a lot. Anne van dam, Robert rock, grant, Mac o Grady etc etc 

[glk]

4 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

Grant wasn’t a big hitter, right?

 

it always baffles me that the people with the “best” swings don’t really win a lot. Anne van dam, Robert rock, grant, Mac o Grady etc etc 

Cant speak to folks having best swing and winning - grant is a model for efficient use of ground.   Best is subjective.    But id say lots of players with really good swings have won  a lot, tiger, hogan, jack, rory, norman, ,watson, nelson,  . .   Some likely were really efficient some still better than most.   But even inefficient swings in terms of using the ground have won  a lot including majors - kuchar and ye yang for example.  
 

Ia quick glance at driving stats has grant being at least in top 50 - he was 22nd in 1999.    Was longer as a senior.      So not in the really long group but not short either.

[Nels55]

20 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

Grant wasn’t a big hitter, right?

 

it always baffles me that the people with the “best” swings don’t really win a lot. Anne van dam, Robert rock, grant, Mac o Grady etc etc 

Probably talent level.  Maybe Grant needed to have a very efficient swing in order to reach the level that he attained.

[Ex Blade User]

7 minutes ago, glk said:

Cant speak to folks having best swing and winning - grant is a model for efficient use of ground.   Best is subjective.    But id say lots of players with really good swings have won  a lot, tiger, hogan, jack, rory, norman, ,watson, nelson,  . .   Some likely were really efficient some still better than most.   But even inefficient swings in terms of using the ground have won  a lot including majors - kuchar and ye yang for example.  
 

Ia quick glance at driving stats has grant being at least in top 50 - he was 22nd in 1999.    Was longer as a senior.      So not in the really long group but not short either.

It’s just the last few years it’s all Robert rock and Anne van dam. They both have similar swings and neither can seem to stay in the higher tours. It just weird to me that van dam can’t make the LPGA