Dr Kwon

[Duffer Mark]

Here is Mike Carroll tweeting about some of what Dr. Kwon worked with him on. 
 

[Nels55]

Seems like Brendon has moved on from Dr. Kwon:

 

At about 16:05 they talk about doing a jump test.  I did not think it possible that someone could jump higher from a static position!  Amazing to me that that could even happen.  More proof that there is a lot of variability in humans.

[glk]

12 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Seems like Brendon has moved on from Dr. Kwon:

 

At about 16:05 they talk about doing a jump test.  I did not think it possible that someone could jump higher from a static position!  Amazing to me that that could even happen.  More proof that there is a lot of variability in humans.

 Yep, my understanding is that folks who are poor at sequencing may not see a higher jump - in golf this is the sequence of momentum transfer - golfer A may generate more torque than golfer B but B can be better at transfer out to the club, ie sequencing.   Or within a golfer they can improve their swing speed by improving their sequencing in regard to transfer of momentum.    This is pretty much what Dr Kwon was researching - a highly efficient overall movement pattern for the golf swing and he used club head speed as the key determinate.

 

So yes people can jump inefficiently.    From articles I've read this is not the majority.   But if you were doing a jump test it is possible that it may reveal a non-strength related issue for their sport - poor coordination - another widely variable aspect of our movement patterns.

Edited February 20, 2023 by glk

[Hawkeye77]

12 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Seems like Brendon has moved on from Dr. Kwon:

 

At about 16:05 they talk about doing a jump test.  I did not think it possible that someone could jump higher from a static position!  Amazing to me that that could even happen.  More proof that there is a lot of variability in humans.

 

That's his way, lol, sure he appreciates the free advertising --- again.

 

Lynn and Mark Crossfield were actually talking about this three years ago re Swing Catalyst and Crossfield did quite a bit on it last spring and still talks about it.  Brendon a little late to the party, but the Lynn stuff is interesting.  Actually seems to translate into hitting a golf ball.

[Nels55]

14 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

That's his way, lol, sure he appreciates the free advertising --- again.

 

Lynn and Mark Crossfield were actually talking about this three years ago re Swing Catalyst and Crossfield did quite a bit on it last spring and still talks about it.  Brendon a little late to the party, but the Lynn stuff is interesting.  Actually seems to translate into hitting a golf ball.

 

I am still amazed that anyone could jump higher from a static start. 

 

I was hitting some balls with a friend one night and I was measuring his driver speed on skytrak and also on my old Beltronics radar and I had him swing my speed sticks just for grins.  He swung every one light or heavy the same speed as his driver.  I wonder if that could be related and maybe he is the type of person who would jump higher from a static position???  No idea. 

 

They did seem to hit the nail on the head as far as Phil goes though as we have all seen him jump!

[glk]

after some initial swings etc dr kwon gets into details with Chris on how the shift and push work - starts around the 25 minute mark and goes around 30-40 minutes.
 

 

[Jeselnik]

On 2/21/2023 at 5:59 AM, BioG said:

I do like Dr Scott Lynn because he's very good at presenting complex stuff in an understandable manner.

 

I did ask Dr Scott Lynn about Dr Kwon's step drills and he said the following:

 

 "As with every drill in golf, it can be good for some people and not so good for others."
 
 

 

 

 

I suspect the not good segment is pretty small.  I can tell for certain that the kettlebell drill is fabulous for stability in everyday life also helped left leg post/brake.

 

JNIK

[Hawkeye77]

55 minutes ago, BioG said:

Has Dr Kwon produced any published data in the public domain showing how grfs might increase clubhead speed? 

 

I would have thought most of the grfs would be used to move the body parts but how does one know whether those movements actually assist in increasing clubhead speed?

 

Or is it all theoretical?

 

The Mann bois are in the house ….

[glk]

11 hours ago, BioG said:

Has Dr Kwon produced any published data in the public domain showing how grfs might increase clubhead speed? 

 

I would have thought most of the grfs would be used to move the body parts but how does one know whether those movements actually assist in increasing clubhead speed?

 

Or is it all theoretical?

 

His papers are listed under his bio.    He doesn't have any free papers available (maybe one is but I don't recall what it's name is) so you have to pay for access.    Otherwise you can take his certification courses which he happens to be giving at the end of this month and early April - registration closes on the 13th - once taken you can retake for free - comes with some 300+ viewgraphs and each session is recorded which you have access too.    Certification 2 is focused on data, lots and lots of data.    http://drkwongolf.info/documents/Flyer 2023-03 Global.pdf

 

http://drkwongolf.info/drkwon.html

Edited March 11, 2023 by glk

[rebel11]

I love this guy's (Dr. Kwon) delivery.  A lot of instructors would be like, "Hey great job buddy you did it"!  But not him.  He's blunt and tell it like it is.  Until they get it right.  

[Frankensteins Monster]

He needs to use that net he has hanging in the background. It makes everyone flinch when it hits the wall.

[Nels55]

Well, it seems that I finally got the recentering right and easy.  I never could quite get it as I was always trying to make it happen at the top in transition.  This evening I watched a Be Better Golf video with Lee Detrick and he talked about the backswing being over at about shaft parallel to the ground as the body starts moving towards the target at that point.  I have heard this from Dr. Kwon and also AMG but didn't get it.  Anyway I am pretty good at making the initial shift to my trail foot to start the backswing so I did that and then started my body towards the target immediately.  While trying this I hit every shot very solid and good distance for me.  Anyway this move felt really weird which I took as an encouraging sign but I figured that the video would look totally bad.  Low and behold I was actually making a really nice recentering move in transition just a like someone who can actually swing the club!  I simply could not believe it when I saw it.  My swing still sucks as I am not posting on my lead leg correctly but I can work on that part next.  

 

Here's the video:

 

[pdxhak]

 

[Zitlow]

@pdxhak Very good. A powerful golf swing is a balanced, dynamic, ground up motion. 

[naj959]

Any updates from people doing step drills?

Significant speed increases?

 

I've been casually lurking around this tread. Never fully committed to the Kwon stuff but experimented. I've found a small trigger similar to Wolfe really helps my pivot and gets the hips working correctly. Just curious if you guys are still working it or moved on to something else? I really want to add some speed (currently at 100 mph) and think sequencing better is probably what I need to work on. 

[Nels55]

Well, I guess that this is sort of an update.  I have been spending a fair amount of time trying to get the shift turn / re-centering movement to work for me.  No matter what I do I tend to make a move to my trail side and stand up a little very late in the backswing.  The only way I can stop that movement is to get to my lead foot really early and stay there.  Doing that I get what looks like a decent re-centering move on video.  I put a lot of effort into learning that movement but not enough to make it a habit and I have to think about it on every swing in order to do it which is not conducive to good golf.  

 

Anyway, I have looked at a number of Mike Adam's videos and I saw one where he said that a trail leg post or 'glider' golfer does not shift to the lead foot until late sometimes after transition.  That sounded interesting so I experimented with turning back and shifting at the same time and then turning through and shifting at the same time.  More of a linear progression which seems to suit my perception of the swing better.  It worked pretty good in a little bit of practice and in a tournament yesterday.  I actually hit the ball better than I have in a long time.  LOL don't know if this is an 'answer' of sorts for me or not.  

 

I can say that when I was trying so hard to get the timing right and re-center properly my driver speed on Mevo was in the 90 to 95 mph range and after making the change I am back to 96 to 100 mph range so I picked up 5 mph or so.  I can also do the rope drill and kettlebell drill with this motion which may actually be what I was doing last May when I shot my lifetime best round.  

 

I don't know maybe I am going the wrong way here but it has made me really happy to be comfortable while swinging again.  LOL possibly a case of "that feels weird so I won't do it" that @MonteScheinblum talks about.  I really don't know but I am going to stick with this move for a while and see what happens.

[AlohaPineapple]

i've been working on dr kwon drills for a few months now, started over the winter.  i've noticed more distance and increased swing speed by having more conscious focus on the ground force and lower body dynamics.  may have overshot the lower body emphasis as now I'm looking to incorporate more shoulder rotation through release.  but when I do get those two motions sequenced properly, it feels fantastic and I can see a noticeable increase in power.

[Jeselnik]

I love the KWON drills. The kettle bell drills have dramatically improved my stability in everyday life.  Use it or lose it.

 

JNIK

[tm3]

On 4/18/2023 at 5:13 PM, pdxhak said:

 

Interesting, but $275?  Ouch!

[nlk10010]

The more I watch the Dr. Kwon video posted above (with Chris P) the more I am reminded of a video Jim Hardy did a long time ago showing people how to use the "Orange Whip" to practice his one-plane and two-plane swings. This of course was before he started in on the LOP and RIT swings.

 

What Kwon demonstrates is a LOT (IMO) like the one-plane Hardy swing with the OW. Not surprising, a good swing requires balance and rhythm, just somewhat reassuring that some old methods can still be useful.

Edited May 13, 2023 by nlk10010

[tm3]

15 hours ago, nlk10010 said:

The more I watch the Dr. Kwon video posted above (with Chris P) the more I am reminded of a video Jim Hardy did a long time ago showing people how to use the "Orange Whip" to practice his one-plane and two-plane swings. This of course was before he started in on the LOP and RIT swings.

 

What Kwon demonstrates is a LOT (IMO) like the one-plane Hardy swing with the OW. Not surprising, a good swing requires balance and rythym, just somewhat reassuring that some old methods can still be useful.

Jim Hardy, now there is a blast from the past!

 

Forget the kettlebell and the $275 piece of plywood -- gimme a swing jacket!

[Peter_b]

There is a 10 second part where Dr Kwon shows the right and the wrong hip move during the step drill of a student. "not this but this" Someone remember where that was what youtube flic? So essential and would like to watch again. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Peter_b

[Nels55]

Looks like Milo likes Dr. Kwon's drills:

 

Step drills, Kettlebell drills but no rope drill.  Also I noticed that there is some sort of swing plane hoop trainer in the background later on in the video.  

[KD1]

6 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Looks like Milo likes Dr. Kwon's drills:

 

Milo and Kwon have been teaching in the Be Better Golf schools together.

[Albatross Dreamer]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, glk said:

 Yep, my understanding is that folks who are poor at sequencing may not see a higher jump - in golf this is the sequence of momentum transfer - golfer A may generate more torque than golfer B but B can be better at transfer out to the club, ie sequencing.   Or within a golfer they can improve their swing speed by improving their sequencing in regard to transfer of momentum.    This is pretty much what Dr Kwon was researching - a highly efficient overall movement pattern for the golf swing and he used club head speed as the key determinate.

 

So yes people can jump inefficiently.    From articles I've read this is not the majority.   But if you were doing a jump test it is possible that it may reveal a non-strength related issue for their sport - poor coordination - another widely variable aspect of our movement patterns.

 

On 2/21/2023 at 12:41 AM, Nels55 said:

 

I am still amazed that anyone could jump higher from a static start. 

 

I was hitting some balls with a friend one night and I was measuring his driver speed on skytrak and also on my old Beltronics radar and I had him swing my speed sticks just for grins.  He swung every one light or heavy the same speed as his driver.  I wonder if that could be related and maybe he is the type of person who would jump higher from a static position???  No idea. 

 

They did seem to hit the nail on the head as far as Phil goes though as we have all seen him jump!

It not so much just sequencing, but also using a muscular based strategy vs a stretch shortening strategy. Muscular force takes longer to generate than stretch shortening. If someone has a poor stretch shortening cycle the downward momentum is going to overwhelm the tissues responsible for that and therefore could be a lower jump with the counter movement vs static start. While it can be trained to be better, that person is likely always going to have more of a muscular bias vs stretch shortening bias. It doesn't mean the same speed can't be reached, just how the person gets there might be different.

[Zitlow]

There's a difference between using muscular force and muscular effort. Muscular force is using the muscles advantageously according to their design. Muscular effort is trying to create force in the downswing. 

 

Most muscles work in opposing pairs, one side stretches while the other side contracts. The stretching and winding happens in the backswing. The relaxing and unwinding happens in the downswing.

 

 

 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

There's a difference between using muscular force and muscular effort. Muscular force is using the muscles advantageously according to their design. Muscular effort is trying to create force in the downswing. 

 

Most muscles work in opposing pairs, one side stretches while the other side contracts. The stretching and winding happens in the backswing. The relaxing and unwinding happens in the downswing.

 

 

 

 

Relaxed like this?:

[Simpsonia]

17 hours ago, Nels55 said:

 

Relaxed like this?:

 

 

To be fair to Zitlow, that could easily feel like some muscles are relaxed to that particular golfer (I have no idea what Tiger felt in this photo, but a golfer in general). I know when I video my swing, I have to feel relaxed arms (or else my shoulders get spinny), but on film they look far more flexed than I felt during the swing. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Simpsonia

[ThinkingPlus]

35 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

 

To be fair to Zitlow, that could easily feel like some muscles are relaxed to that particular golfer (I have no idea what Tiger felt in this photo, but a golfer in general). I know when I video my swing, I have to feel relaxed arms (or else my shoulders get spinny), but on film they look far more flexed than I felt during the swing. 

Which is the continuing dialog of our golf times: feel isn't real. 

[Albatross Dreamer]

18 hours ago, Nels55 said:

 

Relaxed like this?:

 

54 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

 

To be fair to Zitlow, that could easily feel like some muscles are relaxed to that particular golfer (I have no idea what Tiger felt in this photo, but a golfer in general). I know when I video my swing, I have to feel relaxed arms (or else my shoulders get spinny), but on film they look far more flexed than I felt during the swing. 

 

18 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Which is the continuing dialog of our golf times: feel isn't real. 

 

Without going too much into the weeds with muscle action there's an impulse then relaxation. In order for a muscle to freely get back to it's length fastest it needs to relax, otherwise what you get is an eccentric muscle action which is a braking action. For example, the fastest sprinters do have fast contraction times, but also are the best at relaxing too. The heavier the object you have to overcome the longer that initial force has to be sustained in order for momentum to continue/increase. Tiger's forearms aren't relaxed because he's holding onto the club, otherwise it'd fly out of his hands. The key is for that stiffness to not carry up his arms and into the rest of his torso. The more tension in a muscle the less ROM the joint it acts on has access to.

 

I believe what @Zitlow was saying is that in the swing the prime movers eccentrically contract/build tension in the backswing then forcefully contract to redirect momentum then relax in the downswing to allow the impulse to properly transfer to the clubhead. If we were to keep trying to contract those muscles (which many ams do), we'd be stuck on our back leg, rotate poorly, and the club would miss the ball by a mile. However, looking at Tiger's swing the muscles of the front leg are eccentrically contracting in order to allow the body to rotate around that fixed point and act as a braking force to stop the swing in the follow through.