Dr Kwon

[MK7Golf21]

39 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

I’m going to speak the unspeakable. I’m wearing my flame suit, so fire away.

 

I’ve seen video of claiming X increase in swing speed, but they’re using the drill of starting momentum with a forward swing first and not hitting a ball. It’s irrelevant if it’s not a swing used during play and is not a legitimate increase in speed.

 

There are many instructors who can increase swing speed and many ways to do it. So much depends on the physical attributes or limitations of the person. I see it all the time. Forces in the swing are well known and not a mystery.

 

All of the speed a person can muster is useless if the club head geometry at impact isn’t optimal. The average recreational player will gain a lot by hitting it in the middle of the damn face consistently, instead of chasing that one in 10 drive. But, that’s human nature.

 

 

 

I would agree on air swings for sure but I think what Kwon teaches does help to increase speed because it gets you really using your legs and body in a free motion, it's just accuracy needs to play a part as well like you mention or it's kind of useless. We only see driver swings during these lessons which is unusual and it's because speed with he driver is the main thing he is after. 

[johnrobison]

People frequently conflate what Dr Kwon is doing and golf instruction. Seems that if you want to learn how to produce more speed efficiently, he's good for that. But if what you really want is to learn how to hit the ball more effectively, not so much. 

[Nels55]

Lots of interesting thoughts here regarding Dr. Kwon's teaching.  I have wondered if any of his students make a permanent change and actually improve since I first started on his stuff.  I do know from experience that real swing change is very difficult and takes more then one day or one lesson to accomplish for anyone who starts the lesson with an existing swing pattern.  I suppose that if the student goes back and watches the videos of the lesson and then works to make the changes over a period of time then it could happen.  The problem is that without Dr. Kwon watching and correcting it can be very tricky to do the drills correctly which makes the learning unlikely.  In my case if I shoot a lot of video I have a chance to see what I am doing correctly or incorrectly.  LOL not necessarily the most effective strategy but my swing pattern has actually changed in the last year that I have been doing the drills.  I am hitting the ball farther as a result but my index is basically unchanged so there is that. 

 

One thing I can say is that every other golf teacher I have had including all the books and videos at some point has said something that is makes me go hmmm.  Often things that are simply not correct.  I have not noticed that with Kwon, everything that he says seems to make sense and is backed by his studies.  Also it seems that if someone came to him with conflicting data he would be interested in seeing it as opposed to many golf pros who dismiss anyone who disagrees with them outright.  

 

Just my thoughts, LOL.

[KD1]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

I’m going to speak the unspeakable. I’m wearing my flame suit, so fire away.

 

I’ve seen video of claiming X increase in swing speed, but they’re using the drill of starting momentum with a forward swing first and not hitting a ball. It’s irrelevant if it’s not a swing used during play and is not a legitimate increase in speed.

 

There are many instructors who can increase swing speed and many ways to do it. So much depends on the physical attributes or limitations of the person. I see it all the time. Forces in the swing are well known and not a mystery.

 

All of the speed a person can muster is useless if the club head geometry at impact isn’t optimal. The average recreational player will gain a lot by hitting it in the middle of the damn face consistently, instead of chasing that one in 10 drive. But, that’s human nature.

 

I get a little heartburn with academics moonlighting. I’ve seen one trying to hold a zoom class while off making money away from their students. Tenure be damned. It seems like more of a way to embrace their hobby with the university and tuition picking up the tab. If you want to teach, buy your own equipment, quit your job and teach golf like all of the other instructors who aren’t subsidized .

Putting on my flamesuit . . .

 

 

I'll push back a little bit.

 

I don't remember claims about X increase in swing speeds but do remember a claim about X increase in distance... I think it was in one is Brendan's videos.

 

As far as moonlighting goes, I went to a research university down the road from TWU, I worked in a lab. In my experience the research is the be primary focus, the classes are secondary. I'm not saying thats right but for that reason I trust that they know they're stuff. As far as I know he doesn't take payment for these sessions, rather he asks for donations directly to the university... I've noticed in the most recent videos there's giant TWU advertising in the background all of the sudden.

 

I just don't see a problem with a biomechanical researcher working on behalf of a university instead of being out trying to hustle on his own.

Edited February 5, 2023 by KD1

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

I'll push back a little bit.

 

I don't remember claims about X increase in swing speeds but do remember a claim about X increase in distance... I think it was in one is Brendan's videos.

 

As far as moonlighting goes, I went to a research university down the road from TWU, I worked in a lab. In my experience the research is the be primary focus, the classes are secondary. I'm not saying thats right but for that reason I trust that they know they're stuff. As far as I know he doesn't take payment for these sessions, rather he asks for donations directly to the university... I've noticed in the most recent videos there's giant TWU advertising in the background all of the sudden.

 

I just don't see a problem with a biomechanical researcher working on behalf of a university instead of being out trying to hustle on his own.

He’s hustling, created a cottage industry for himself - not leveling that as a criticism. 

[KD1]

15 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He’s hustling, created a cottage industry for himself - not leveling that as a criticism. 

 

Ive never met him and obviously don't know his business. Did he create this cottage industry for him self or his employer? Does it matter? I guess what my point is is that I really don't understand what soloman1's final point was that they were trying to make.

[Hawkeye77]

7 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Ive never met him and obviously don't know his business. Did he create this cottage industry for him self or his employer? Does it matter? I guess what my point is is that I really don't understand what soloman1's final point was that they were trying to make.

If the vast instructor certification program is only making money for TWU …..

 

Again, not criticizing. I’m a capitalist!

[1puttit]

When I had my session he said "The university is interested in doing more branding" in reference to the new backdrop. I got the feeling it was not his idea. He also said they are going to paint so I wouldn't be surprised to see that whole wall covered in TWU logos in the near future. 

[KD1]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

If the vast instructor certification program is only making money for TWU …..

 

Again, not criticizing. I’m a capitalist!

Either way it seems like a mutually beneficial relationship.

[Krt22]

12 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

I’m going to speak the unspeakable. I’m wearing my flame suit, so fire away.

 

I’ve seen video of claiming X increase in swing speed, but they’re using the drill of starting momentum with a forward swing first and not hitting a ball. It’s irrelevant if it’s not a swing used during play and is not a legitimate increase in speed.

 

There are many instructors who can increase swing speed and many ways to do it. So much depends on the physical attributes or limitations of the person. I see it all the time. Forces in the swing are well known and not a mystery.

 

All of the speed a person can muster is useless if the club head geometry at impact isn’t optimal. The average recreational player will gain a lot by hitting it in the middle of the damn face consistently, instead of chasing that one in 10 drive. But, that’s human nature.

 

I get a little heartburn with academics moonlighting. I’ve seen one trying to hold a zoom class while off making money away from their students. Tenure be damned. It seems like more of a way to embrace their hobby with the university and tuition picking up the tab. If you want to teach, buy your own equipment, quit your job and teach golf like all of the other instructors who aren’t subsidized .

Putting on my flamesuit . . .

 

 

Absolutely no flaming to be had. Speed without good face control is useless.

 

In many cases bad golfers have poor speed because they aren’t controlling the face, so adding speed is counterproductive 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

13 hours ago, KD1 said:

Either way it seems like a mutually beneficial relationship.

 

That's obvious.

 

Your suggestion this was somehow altruistic and akin to pure research by a university employee and not having any profit motive component is what you aren't letting go.  He's got somewhere north of 200 folks who have bought into his certification program listed on his website (not a university website), more signing up, which again since so many don't read and jump to conclusions, is great - if anyone thinks there is value they should buy it, if their students think there is value, they'll buy in as well, that's how works and is pretty common.

 

Anyway, I just had a couple questions I'd be happy to read answers to, nothing more to it.

 

 

[KD1]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

That's obvious.

 

Your suggestion this was somehow altruistic and akin to pure research by a university employee and not having any profit motive component is what you aren't letting go.  He's got somewhere north of 200 folks who have bought into his certification program listed on his website (not a university website), more signing up, which again since so many don't read and jump to conclusions, is great - if anyone thinks there is value they should buy it, if their students think there is value, they'll buy in as well, that's how works and is pretty common.

 

Anyway, I just had a couple questions I'd be happy to read answers to, nothing more to it.

 

 

 

That's not at all what I was suggesting. My comment was in hasty response to the moonlighting comment in context of the "reprogramming" and all the latest social media attention, what's most relevant to me as a hack. I sometimes forget this instruction forum is full of... instructors! I wasn't considering these certification courses as I was ignorant of their scope. I said I didn't understand what their point was... I've got a better handle on it now.

Edited February 6, 2023 by KD1

[Hawkeye77]

43 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

That's not at all what I was suggesting. My comment was in hasty response to the moonlighting comment in context of the "reprogramming" and all the latest social media attention, what's most relevant to me as a hack. I sometimes forget this instruction forum is full of... instructors! I wasn't considering these certification courses as I was ignorant of their scope. I said I didn't understand what their point was... I've got a better handle on it now.

Rest assured, I'm not one and really try to limit my dives down theory rabbit holes, so my questions are usually more general and just trying to "get" something on what is not the deepest level, but enough so I know whether it resonates or, for me, not worth trying to understand better.

[Soloman1]

If compensation for his instruction at the school is going towards the school, then kudos to him. But my comment was not just about him. There are some chasing money at the expense of tuition paying students. I think the ethics of that is a little wiggly.

[glk]

This video is Mike C from Fit for Golf.    He picks things up very quickly and they progress to hitting balls at the end so video is only 50 minutes versus one that go 90 and beyond.

Focus is on shift and using the right leg.    Some discussion also in the comments.

 

 

 

Also this is from a recent Dana lesson for Jason Gore - look familiar?    Todd C also has a video on a similar drill.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CohtSWqoW8A/?hl=en

Edited February 14, 2023 by glk

[Nels55]

On 2/14/2023 at 3:22 PM, glk said:

This video is Mike C from Fit for Golf.    He picks things up very quickly and they progress to hitting balls at the end so video is only 50 minutes versus one that go 90 and beyond.

Focus is on shift and using the right leg.    Some discussion also in the comments.

 

 

 

Also this is from a recent Dana lesson for Jason Gore - look familiar?    Todd C also has a video on a similar drill.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CohtSWqoW8A/?hl=en

So Dr. Kwon is taking a front post player and ruining his swing?  My gosh the golf the golf instruction industry or whatever you want to call it is is a mess!  The amount of conflicting teaching / information is amazing!

 

Edit:  This comment is meant as a reflection on the difference between what I have seen Mike Adams teach using his rear, mid and front post system compared to what Dr. Kwon is teaching here.  In particular I am thinking of the number of times that Adams has mentioned a top player falling in the rankings because a coach tried to train them to use a different post then then the post that the player was successful using.  It is not meant as any kind of judgement on either Dr. Kwon's teaching or Mike Adams teaching!  

Edited February 16, 2023 by Nels55

[Jeselnik]

8 hours ago, Nels55 said:

So Dr. Kwon is taking a front post player and ruining his swing?  My gosh the golf the golf instruction industry or whatever you want to call it is is a mess!  The amount of conflicting teaching / information is amazing!

Was he supposed to swing they way he was?  Was his swing ruined? If you want to play it safe, stay home.

 

JNIK

[iceman1118]

10 hours ago, Nels55 said:

So Dr. Kwon is taking a front post player and ruining his swing?  My gosh the golf the golf instruction industry or whatever you want to call it is is a mess!  The amount of conflicting teaching / information is amazing!

So you think his swing was “ruined” after this lesson? Why? 

[johnrobison]

11 hours ago, Nels55 said:

So Dr. Kwon is taking a front post player and ruining his swing?  My gosh the golf the golf instruction industry or whatever you want to call it is is a mess!  The amount of conflicting teaching / information is amazing!

That wasn't golf instruction. It was power generation instruction, which is what Mike went to see him for.

[glk]

48 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

That wasn't golf instruction. It was power generation instruction, which is what Mike went to see him for.

What would make it golf instruction?

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, glk said:

What would make it golf instruction?

OK. Fair enough... It's a component of golf instruction, I suppose, in the sense that he's teaching him how to translate power to the golf club.

[Hawkeye77]

34 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

OK. Fair enough... It's a component of golf instruction, I suppose, in the sense that he's teaching him how to translate power to the golf club.

 

It's all related at the core to providing people with mechanically sound golf swings and understanding whatever information appropriate to understanding the golf swing he is having them learn, or teaching others to have them learn -- isn't "translating power" vs. overall working in the context of the golf swing a distinction without a difference?   It's all golf swing related on way or another.

 

Whether it translates or makes sense is for the students to judge by actual results and others to parse over in theoretical discussions.  I don't see much discussion about visual/quantifiable translation to hitting a golf ball and before/after of long term progress, but have to assume it's out there somewhere, and not suggesting it isn't, just don't really seem to see it in all of the videos, many of which look very much the same, but I freely admit I don't have time to watch them all and won't.  

[glk]

31 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

OK. Fair enough... It's a component of golf instruction, I suppose, in the sense that he's teaching him how to translate power to the golf club.

I don't know Mike's intent in seeing Dr Kwon but Dr Kwon has said a number of times that he teaches an overall body motion which happens to result, at times, in distance gains.     This is as opposed to things like speed stick protocols, the stack system, etc that have a main purpose of power generation and a side benefit that your swing plane or something else may improve.     It is no surprise to me that long drive has adopted a lot of Dr Kwon's teaching and a fair number of instructors - he has been teaching this since 2014 to golf professionals and it really has just gotten more into more of the public domain, if you will, in the last few years - his influence is world wide.    I only wish that other's like Sasho, etc would also offer training based on their research - I know that numerous researchers attend and give talks to instructor forums which Dr Kwon also does but I am not aware of any other researcher offering classes open to all and based on their research of the golf motion.

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, iceman1118 said:

So you think his swing was “ruined” after this lesson? Why? 

No.  I was referring to the very well respected Mike Adams and the things that he teaches regarding front post, center post and rear post.  I guess that I should have made that more clear.  I made no judgement on either's teaching structure.  It's just that two well respected teachers seem to teach very differently and as I mentioned the overall amount of conflicting instruction out there is mind boggling. 

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, glk said:

I don't know Mike's intent in seeing Dr Kwon but Dr Kwon has said a number of times that he teaches an overall body motion which happens to result, at times, in distance gains.     This is as opposed to things like speed stick protocols, the stack system, etc that have a main purpose of power generation and a side benefit that your swing plane or something else may improve.     It is no surprise to me that long drive has adopted a lot of Dr Kwon's teaching and a fair number of instructors - he has been teaching this since 2014 to golf professionals and it really has just gotten more into more of the public domain, if you will, in the last few years - his influence is world wide.    I only wish that other's like Sasho, etc would also offer training based on their research - I know that numerous researchers attend and give talks to instructor forums which Dr Kwon also does but I am not aware of any other researcher offering classes open to all and based on their research of the golf motion.

Mike's working on increasing speed right now - he's already a very good player - and I'll ask him this weekend when I'll probably see him at the range (we practice at the same place and chat golf and stuff) what his takeaways were. I was simply commenting on the "ruining his swing" and "instruction is a mess" assertion earlier. Mike didn't go to Kwon because he needed a swing instructor (traditionally speaking) but, rather, because he's on a quest to generate more power. And I get that part of the golf swing is generating power - yes.

Edited February 15, 2023 by johnrobison

[glk]

10 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Mike's working on increasing speed right now - he's already a very good player - and I'll ask him this weekend when I'll probably see him at the range (we practice at the same place and chat golf and stuff) what his takeaways were. I was simply commenting on the "ruining his swing" and "instruction is a mess" assertion earlier. Mike didn't go to Kwon because he needed a swing instructor (traditionally speaking) but, rather, because he's on a quest to generate more power. And I get that part of the golf swing is generating power - yes.

would be interesting to hear about his takeaways if he is okay with sharing.    I wonder if he went thru the full swing analysis and only the reprogramming - i know Dr Kwon does this for pro players as well as golf instructors in which he includes fitness folks.

 

looked at dr kwon Instagram and see mike did the analysis too.

Edited February 15, 2023 by glk

[Nels55]

12 hours ago, glk said:

would be interesting to hear about his takeaways if he is okay with sharing.    I wonder if he went thru the full swing analysis and only the reprogramming - i know Dr Kwon does this for pro players as well as golf instructors in which he includes fitness folks.

 

looked at dr kwon Instagram and see mike did the analysis too.

It would be interesting to find out how Dr. Kwon's students do!  I have noticed that in general it seems fairly common for established golfers to not improve much from lessons.  In this case it is only one lesson though I would think that the student would review the video fairly often to keep the teaching fresh.

 

How the students do is really the only measure of any golf teacher and there is very little or actually zero objective data for average golfers that I know of.  I have seen lots of testimonials but nothing like handicap tracking or something of that nature.

[Nels55]

This video seems interesting.  Dr. Scott Lynn mentions Dr. Kwon at one point.  It seems like Dr. Kwon  is not focused on any particular one of the three forces?  I found Dr. Scott's mentioning that adding rotational torque never seemed to hurt any of his students to rather instructive.  I will probably give the first exercise a try.

 

LOL I don't think I would want to be in that garage while I was hitting balls into that little net!

[glk]

19 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

This video seems interesting.  Dr. Scott Lynn mentions Dr. Kwon at one point.  It seems like Dr. Kwon  is not focused on any particular one of the three forces?  I found Dr. Scott's mentioning that adding rotational torque never seemed to hurt any of his students to rather instructive.  I will probably give the first exercise a try.

 

LOL I don't think I would want to be in that garage while I was hitting balls into that little net!

Dr kwon is focused on the torque developed in the body through use of the ground   Trying to randomly adjust individual ground forces is hit and miss.

 

it is the torques produced inthe horizontal and frontal planes that dominate the swing - torque in the lateral plane does not contribute to chs but does come into play thru impact.

 

his advocated motion pattern is the most efficient way he has found to generate the greatest grf torque for a person - torque in the horizontal plane is relatively easy to generate and doesn't have complex foot forces - it is the back and forward pushing of the ground - what is termed torque in swing cat.  Grf toruqe has many different ways to generate it since it is comprised of the horizontal  and vertical forces - and so it is a difference maker in a golfer producing grf torque.

 

an example of a person swinging n their knees yet still having 80% swing speed shows how easily the horizontal torque can be generated.  It is actually required since horizontal torque if out of balance with grf torque creates a flat fsp - you need a flatter swing plane while in your knees.  When standing for a regular golf swing the brain thru learning regulates the horizontal torque with the grf torque - if it didn't and you create an imbalance yiu either swing over it or stick it in the ground.

 

it is this torque that the golfer uses to create angular momentum that is ultimately transferred to the club head - greater torque, greater momentum.

 

more details than this simplified explanation and dr kwon supplies these in his certification classes.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by glk

[Zitlow]

22 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

This video seems interesting.  Dr. Scott Lynn mentions Dr. Kwon at one point.  It seems like Dr. Kwon  is not focused on any particular one of the three forces?  I found Dr. Scott's mentioning that adding rotational torque never seemed to hurt any of his students to rather instructive.  I will probably give the first exercise a try.

 

LOL I don't think I would want to be in that garage while I was hitting balls into that little net!

 

This is a tutorial on how to use ground forces.