Dr Kwon

[Simpsonia]

12 hours ago, glk said:

 

But two items keep coming back up and that is the importance of the vertical and horizontal rhythm in the swing motion.   Shurn will get you the horizontal.   Shifting and pushing the ground hard with the trail leg and getting the right side as high as you can sets up the vertical - his tap, tap tap - unweighting from p3 to p4 is really important to create a large moment arm and high torque by p5.   The large vertical force from the lead leg comes from slowing the drop from unweight ending and not from an attempt to jump - attempting to squat and jump is poor use of the ground and screws up sequencing and lead to the pelvis collapsing and reduced ability to push the ground with the lead leg.    Good swing that use the ground well don’t squat - the body’s com shifts upward, drops via unweighting  and gravity thru transition and early downswing, and then rises again thru impact.

 

 

 

So I'm really curious about this. We see a lot of the long hitters (Berkshire, JT, Neinaber) with their lead foot leaving the ground. Originally I had always thought of it as a jump pressure from that lead leg. I know some of the long drive guys do teach and emphasize a jump in some drills (ie Koch's rainbow drill). But, if I'm understanding this now, it's not actually a squat and jump movement, ie the intention isn't to use lead leg pressure to leave the ground, ie pushing the pelvis up. The lead leg is a bracing post that you push into, and leaving the ground is more a result of continued rotation pulling the lead pelvis back and upward enough to cause that lead foot to leave the ground incidentally? Or are they just outliers who managed to figure out sequencing that works with a jump movement? 

[PracticeSwinger]

10 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

But, if I'm understanding this now, it's not actually a squat and jump movement, ie the intention isn't to use lead leg pressure to leave the ground, ie pushing the pelvis up. The lead leg is a bracing post that you push into, and leaving the ground is more a result of continued rotation pulling the lead pelvis back and upward enough to cause that lead foot to leave the ground incidentally?

Interested also - and that's my understanding as well... a result/reaction more than an intent - and experimenting it seems to be the case; when I try to 'mix Rory/JT from the top - i.e. squat and launch' all hell brakes loose... but when I extent the trail side, then surf/unweight to brace/pressure the lead leg (even exaggeration as a step) - the push back and up happens on it's own (where not much pressure is left into the lead foot at impact)... work in progress

[MK7Golf21]

If you watch the reprogramming sessions he is big on kicking the ground but when people start to lower intentionally in squat moves he corrects them not to do that and says squatting throws off the sequence. I've experienced that whenever I used an intentional squat down in a swing, never stuck with me because it's inconsistent.

[Duffer Mark]

@glk, thanks for the detail. I wish I would have signed up for his class earlier this year. 

 

Does Kwon address shallowing the club (ulnar deviation, etc.)?

[glk]

Yep his data clearly shows that the motion is to raise the body com then the vertical force is used to brake the downward motion .  A squat entails lowering then raising but the swing motion is opposite - raise then stop the drop.    And this motion comes from folks across the spectrum - just that some folks are much better at the pattern.    
 

todays class is focused on rotation results based on functional swing plane.   
just starting on the kinematic after break.   This will focus on angular velocities associated with the rotations.   

Edited November 2, 2022 by glk

[glk]

23 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

@glk, thanks for the detail. I wish I would have signed up for his class earlier this year. 

 

Does Kwon address shallowing the club (ulnar deviation, etc.)?

No discussion on shallowing.    
 

I got the early bird discounts and discounts for attending previous sessions but overall the three session totally 42 hours of class time cost $1200.    And I can take any future version of these sessions for free.

[yoose]

14 hours ago, glk said:

Yes dr kwon is certainly evolving his instruction during these reprogramming sessions.    He does a lot on body movement before he gets into step drills.

 

im inthe middle of his certification level 2 class (have attended 6 mini talks and was kwonified via taking his certification level 1.    These sessions are focusing on sharing data/info from elite swings on his key research findings - my head was ready to explode after this mornings session.     I’ve rewatched the mini talks but these two certifications sessions are going to take some reviewing and time to digest.  
 

lots of information the functional swing plane and the hand motion path and how they interact for better and worse.    He defines 3 swing styles based on how the club head’s path differs from a persons projected fsp and things get complicated when the hand plane and fsp don’t play nice together.    His work to get people to modify the direction they swing their hands as in the video is what he views as important to developing his planar swing style where the fsp and hand motion plane are parallel and well aligned.   Issues happen which require wrist actions to “save” when the fsp and hand plane have severe directional gaps .
 

But two items keep coming back up and that is the importance of the vertical and horizontal rhythm in the swing motion.   Shurn will get you the horizontal.   Shifting and pushing the ground hard with the trail leg and getting the right side as high as you can sets up the vertical - his tap, tap tap - unweighting from p3 to p4 is really important to create a large moment arm and high torque by p5.   The large vertical force from the lead leg comes from slowing the drop from unweight ending and not from an attempt to jump - attempting to squat and jump is poor use of the ground and screws up sequencing and lead to the pelvis collapsing and reduced ability to push the ground with the lead leg.    Good swing that use the ground well don’t squat - the body’s com shifts upward, drops via unweighting  and gravity thru transition and early downswing, and then rises again thru impact.

 

he has lots of good detail on the pelvis motion too.  And it is not what I thought and it challenges tpi concept of ee.   Pelvis com moves a few cm toward the ball until end of pelvis rotation, then move away but never gets back to it starting position.  He is not a fan of butt against the wall, ball , or whatever - believes it promotes collapsing of pelvis and poor use of ground    
y e yang was used as an example.  He plays his stick figures from different angles to show motions and how com etc move in poor motions and good - defined based on how well the ground is used.

 

im still digesting and don’t claim expertise. Like I said info packed and really requires multiple views and questions - he is great about responding.  He plans a third certification where you’ll be able to run his software on swings and make a diagnosis.

 

these graphs show the motion.

Thanks for sharing. Lots of information to digest here. Good to know about the squat move and I’ve been trying it and it makes the sequence awkward. 

 

11 hours ago, glk said:

He is not concerned with it and doesn’t view it as ee given the amount and pattern he sees in quality swings.  He is concerned that focus on keeping the butt back can lead to negative effects on using the ground.
 

this is his chart summary of his db of elite swings.     Yes there is variation and some do keep the get the pelvis com back to or further back than the starting point.   He has charts of average plus ranges.    And this can be accompanied with maintaining knee flex too long so pelvis “collapses” and ability to push with lead leg is reduced. 

this forward movement is not large - on average about an inch with ranges from -1 to 7 cm.   He includes swings with driver, 5i, and pw for all golfers and things differ slightly but he typically presents driver data.  Have to note that this is all tied together with how the pelvis is rotated.     The pattern is toward, away, toward and he has data on all of these segments.  But that is really getting into the weeds.  He recognizes that excessive forward or backward is an issue - concierge that wall type drills can be overdone.

he played an animation viewed from above on how the pelvis com moves in response to a question basically saying really it moves forward.   I asked him for a copy and if he sends it to me I’ll post it - good to see how this forward/backward motion works together with the lateral motion and rotation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On this graphic it looks like the pelvis CM moves down in the backswing, but when I try to get my trail hip high it seems like the pelvis CM moves up. Does he show anything on that motion? Is it the tilt that makes the pelvis CM move down?

[glk]

 

 

this is the animation of grant waite's swing view from overhead.    I had to copy to desktop and post since the link is on a private drive.

 

You can see that from setup to to almost TB the pelvis center moves toward the ball then away thru the downswing but doesn't quite make it back to the setup position.

 

 

 

[glk]

20 minutes ago, yoose said:

Thanks for sharing. Lots of information to digest here. Good to know about the squat move and I’ve been trying it and it makes the sequence awkward. 

 

On this graphic it looks like the pelvis CM moves down in the backswing, but when I try to get my trail hip high it seems like the pelvis CM moves up. Does he show anything on that motion? Is it the tilt that makes the pelvis CM move down?

Yes the pelvis CM moves down until between TB and p5 when it then starts to move up and is slightly above setup at Ball Impact.     And the R/L tilt caused by the lead side lowering is a factor - it is not lowered by bending both knees at the same time but folks try to do this during the downswing.    Getting trail hip high contributes to the body CM (which peaks around End of Pelvis Rotation) going up via extending the trail leg as well as letting the lead side lower.      The pelvis also tilts forward and backward - setup is forward then backward during backswing, then forward and again back (thru impact the posterior tilt is much greater than during the backswing). - Dr Kwon didn't talk about how much this tilt contributed to COM movement.      

 

[glk]

Dr Kwon described his 3D system at high level.      10 high speed cameras at 500 Hz.    68 body markers (GEARS has 28 I believe)

And the markers are attached to bare skin as much as possible to avoid measure error induced by marker movement independent of body(an issue he has seen in systems like Kvest, AMM).       Also the markers are used for error avoidance since body motion is calculated via multiple markers not just one - so the system tracks the relative motion of the markers too.     This is stuff he developed - KWON3D.    Smart person.    He also uses the functional swing plane concept that he and Como and some others developed back in 2012ish to determine rotation angles etc  - he also has a inclined multi segmented axle + open chain model that he developed.       Interestingly he doesn't teach golf biomechanics at TWU - this is a side job, lol.

 

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

36 minutes ago, glk said:

Interestingly he doesn't teach golf biomechanics at TWU - this is a side job, lol.

Knew it - imposter!... I'll hang in the Mike Austin and Jackie Burke swing method threads...

[glk]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

Knew it - imposter!... I'll hang in the Mike Austin and Jackie Burke swing method threads...

Surprising.  I figured you as a holygrailofgolf from overhand golf type

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, glk said:

Surprising.  I figured you as a holygrailofgolf from overhand golf type

Haha - still can't believe this guy videos

[glk]

14 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Does it sound quite similar to / compatible with Pete Cowen's spiral stairway concept?

As I understand Cowen, no, not as simple as a coiling  motion.

[glk]

7 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Haha - still can't believe this guy videos

On the kinematic sequence.   HL hip line.  SL Shoulder line. UL Arms. Club.  WC wrist c0ck.  Thorax is omitted but would happen between hl and sl.

chart is from 66 players

dr kwon breaks things into 3 segments.  Backswing, transition, and downswing.  The backswing and downswing are partial sequences - they don’t happen in exact proximal to distal order.   Transition does.

he spent an hour on 18 charts this is just one.   Peak angular velocity has been measured and it has been measured relative to when it occurs in the backswing and downswing.  He also measured the change in angular velocity in the downswing between peak and BI.   
 

first in the backswing hl and sl peak within 10 ms.   The arms and club are separated from hl and sl and themselves.    He correlated all but club to chs.   Club doesn’t correlate due to differences in wrist cocking speed and timing.

in the ds all factors correlate to chs.

 

he doesn’t mention this here but in cert 1 he talked about transition length.  Transition is from end of pelvis rotation to top of backswing.   Good transition take in the ballpark of 100ms.   Quick 60-70 ms - he has one inthe 40s and this was also with the player with the shortest arm swing.

 

Inthe ds, hl, sl, and arms peak within 10ms.    Again partial sequence.   And the decel from peak to impact for the hl and arms is correlated to chs - more decel faster chs.

so important to have peak ds angular velocity happen early (and wrist to uncock later).     Peaks happen close to the early downswing event - shaft vertical.    Important to have sufficient time to transfer speed from body to club.  Only the hips and arm decel correlate.    The shoulders don’t cause there are a small number of players (5 out of his 66) that keep accelerating the shoulder thru impact - these folks also have an early wrist uncocking, and other sequencing issues.   He removed them from the data and has results of just the 61 too.   He noted that these are averages and that folks who have really good swings have  higher peaks, better delays, etc.

 

In short active backswing with mature transition and early acceleration.    And there you go.   So not just amg’s speed up the arms - speed up everything.     Peak torque happens by or just before p5 (peak grf happens later but by then the moment arm has shortened).  Peak ds velocitys by shaft vertical.     Wrist uncocking happens about shaft vertical too.   Gives you about 80-90 ms to decel and transfer momentum.  
 

so peaks are important and when they happen are too - some delayed in backswing and some early in downswing.    Example delayed shoulder turn in backswing is good - nothing special needed here just his active backswing; active use of the body - killer is turning shoulder early.

land orettty much everything happening soon after transition is good except wrist uncocking.
 

 

Here is the data on peak timing prior to impact and relative to ED.      They don’t correlate to chs due to conflicting items  Faster downswing means peaks will be closer to bi but you also need to give enough time before bi for decel to happen for good transfer - still need them to happen as early as possible.  

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by glk

[Duffer Mark]

@glk, What does a delayed shoulder turn in backswing look like?

[glk]

42 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

@glk, What does a delayed shoulder turn in backswing look like?

Grant Waite would be a example but as I mentioned delayed requires nothing special just dr kwon’s active backswing.    A bad example would be folks that delay/restrict hip movement and turn shoulder quickly to create a big x-factor - So folks that quickly turn the shoulders and ignore lower body motion.
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi2p9kZn5eT/?hl=en

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by glk

[GolfTurkey]

Did he have any suggestions for or motions that naturally result in the delayed uncocking of the wrists, without having to resort to consciously holding onto angles which pretty much every teacher seems to frown upon?

[Duffer Mark]

4 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Did he have any suggestions for or motions that naturally result in the delayed uncocking of the wrists, without having to resort to consciously holding onto angles which pretty much every teacher seems to frown upon?

I wonder if the answer lies where Dr. Kwon tells people to "draw the sword" in the downswing.

[glk]

6 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Did he have any suggestions for or motions that naturally result in the delayed uncocking of the wrists, without having to resort to consciously holding onto angles which pretty much every teacher seems to frown upon?

 

2 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

I wonder if the answer lies where Dr. Kwon tells people to "draw the sword" in the downswing.

exactly his response

Edited November 3, 2022 by glk

[MK7Golf21]

20 hours ago, glk said:

 

 

this is the animation of grant waite's swing view from overhead.    I had to copy to desktop and post since the link is on a private drive.

 

You can see that from setup to to almost TB the pelvis center moves toward the ball then away thru the downswing but doesn't quite make it back to the setup position.

 

 

 

so he sees this same pattern in most the top pro swings in his database? 

[Duffer Mark]

 

Kwon talks about wrist action including drawing the sword analogy in this video. 

[glk]

9 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

so he sees this same pattern in most the top pro swings in his database? 

Nope.   Out of the 66 only 39 had what he termed a planar swing.  
He had wrist dominate swingers and arm dominate swingers, guys that “fire the hips”,  spinners, stuck,  casters.      For these players you have to ask what could they have done with a better motion?     Matt kuchar stands out - he basically get little to nothing out of the ground - I imagine a Matt kuchar 20-30 yards longer would have won a major if not multiple.

[MK7Golf21]

13 minutes ago, glk said:

Nope.   Out of the 66 only 39 had what he termed a planar swing.  
He had wrist dominate swingers and arm dominate swingers, guys that “fire the hips”,  spinners, stuck,  casters.      For these players you have to ask what could they have done with a better motion?     Matt kuchar stands out - he basically get little to nothing out of the ground - I imagine a Matt kuchar 20-30 yards longer would have won a major if not multiple.

Even the hip EE movement? So he didn’t see that similar pattern as Grant Waite in most the top swings in his db where they don’t make it back to address position in downswing? 

[glk]

13 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Even the hip EE movement? So he didn’t see that similar pattern as Grant Waite in most the top swings in his db where they don’t make it back to address position in downswing? 

The hip pattern  graph was an average across all 66.  So in general the hip pattern was similar with variance.   Some moved their butts back through out the swing  (and just got back to setup position by impact) but those were outliers.

 

When he talked about different items he shared the general and the outliers.  Too much data to really share here and frankly I need to rewatch several times more.   He measured a lot of stuff and tuesday he shared it and it lead to my comment of head exploding.

Edited November 3, 2022 by glk

[MK7Golf21]

25 minutes ago, glk said:

The hip pattern  graph was an average across all 66.  So in general the hip pattern was similar with variance.   Some moved their butts back through out the swing  (and just got back to setup position by impact) but those were outliers.

 

When he talked about different items he shared the general and the outliers.  Too much data to really share here and frankly I need to rewatch several times more.   He measured a lot of stuff and tuesday he shared it and it lead to my comment of head exploding.

thanks for the info!

 

1 hour ago, Duffer Mark said:

 

Kwon talks about wrist action including drawing the sword analogy in this video. 

He says not to use the wrists in a casting motion from the top. Different take than the other thread which dominates this forum. Personally, in my own swing I lean more towards Kwons findings, casting from the top never really clicked with me. 

[PracticeSwinger]

23 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

He says not to use the wrists in a casting motion from the top. Different take than the other thread which dominates this forum. Personally, in my own swing I lean more towards Kwons findings, casting from the top never really clicked with me. 

NTC is focusing on the intent to cast from the top and in a good direction - in order to shallow it out... it is the generic idea required to help the vast majority of amateurs that have the intent, from the top, 'to smash hard that little mofo' and thus fire the hips, spin their shoulders + torso, try to 'hold the lag' from a front view and as a consequence have a steep shaft, OTT coming in - compensatory EE, stall/flip save and if done too late, slice it right of the planet...

Edited November 3, 2022 by MtlJayMan
typo

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

NTC is focusing on the intent to cast from the top and in a good direction - in order to shallow it out... it is the generic idea required to help the vast majority of amateurs that have the intent, from the top, 'to smash hard that little mofo' and thus fire the hips, spin their shoulders + torso, try to 'hold the lag' from a front view and as a consequence have a steep shaft, OTT coming in - compensatory EE, stall/flip save and if done too late, slice it right of the planet...

I know what it is. Works well for people who yank the handle steep and narrow. Feel and real aren’t the same and it works for them. Casting from the top doesn’t work for everyone and isn’t universal. For me I don’t have a problem with yanking steep/narrow and casting to 8 gets me dumped under, way too wide and slows me down. 

[PracticeSwinger]

Just now, MK7Golf21 said:

I know what it is. Works well for people who yank the handle steep and narrow. Feel and real aren’t the same and it works for them. Casting from the top doesn’t work for everyone and isn’t universal. For me I don’t have a problem with yanking steep/narrow and casting to 8 gets me dumped under, way too wide and slows me down. 

Agree - swings get better individually within a coach/student relationship... my comment was more on how to attack the vast majority of amateurs with a generic intent - and NTC attains that goal perfectly... we're on the same page

[CSagan]

RIP JayMan