Dr Kwon

[ezpz]

1 hour ago, iceman1118 said:

I am not implying Kwon is trying to teach a long drive swing. I absolutely understand he is trying to make people move more efficiently. But outside of Bryson, how many pros are we watching on a daily basis really go after it? Two exact opposite players come to mind when I am watching what Kwon teaches... Justin Thomas and Collin Morikawa. They both seem deliberate in their swing and seem to use the backswing as a load or windup, not what seems to be a violent hulking motion in attempt to move better. They move more efficiently and hit it the same distance as the guys in the Kwon videos and it doesn't look like they are going to break their back in half. How do all these people plan to hit a finesse 65 yard wedge when the time comes? 

 

Just trying to look at the other side is all. 

Considering you are already quick, you are probably doing a lot of things right already. This groundforce/kwon stuff can be an immense help for players who are inefficient and not quick (I started the groundforce stuff in real life lessons at the start of offseason before I found dr Kwon and went from 96mph average to 105 average). I think a lot of slower/less powerful player stand to gain immensely from undertanding how to swing more athleticaly. Obviously if someone is at 115 already there can be other considerations.

[Nels55]

1 minute ago, ezpz said:

Considering you are already quick, you are probably doing a lot of things right already. This groundforce/kwon stuff can be an immense help for players who are inefficient and not quick (I started the groundforce stuff in real life lessons at the start of offseason before I found dr Kwon and went from 96mph average to 105 average). I think a lot of slower/less powerful player stand to gain immensely from undertanding how to swing more athleticaly. Obviously if someone is at 115 already there can be other considerations.

Based on what I have seen relative speed is not necessarily an indication of good swing mechanics.  A really strong person can make a lot of speed in a variety of non optimal ways.  Also someone with perfect mechanics might have 'low' speed simply because of how they are built.  After all there are PGA Tour pros who average in the low 100 mph range.  Most likely their swing mechanics are better then most posting on this thread...  Ground force / swing optimization work might get @iceman1118 another 20 mph or possibly you are right and it would make no difference.  No way to know from here!

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Based on what I have seen relative speed is not necessarily an indication of good swing mechanics.  A really strong person can make a lot of speed in a variety of non optimal ways.  Also someone with perfect mechanics might have 'low' speed simply because of how they are built.  After all there are PGA Tour pros who average in the low 100 mph range.  Most likely their swing mechanics are better then most posting on this thread...  Ground force / swing optimization work might get @iceman1118 another 20 mph or possibly you are right and it would make no difference.  No way to know from here!

It’s about blending movements not maxing out 1 or 2.  
 

If you over do any of the body forces you rob the others.

 

Too much lateral leads to loss in vertical and rotational.  
 

The same for body movements at the expense of arm and wrist movements and vice versa

 

I can increase anyones club speed from 1 swing to the next, but if they have no chance of putting the club on the ball, what good is it.

 

There is too much extremism is golf instruction.  You’re casting, hold the lag.  You’re coming out of posture, keep your head down.  Your hips aren’t getting open, fire them.  Your arms are behind you, throw them at the ball.  In all of those situations the golfer would get worse.

 

One of the biggest reasons so many people fail to get better, even with lessons is all the false dichotomies.  There’s a blend and the answer is almost always between the extremes.  
 

 

[iceman1118]

55 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I have watched as many of the videos as I have been able to find and I am not seeing what you are seeing.  I see Kwon asking for a vigorous backswing and a gather and less effort through the ball.  He seems to me to always be after good tempo and rhythm. 

 

I can see where trying to change someone's ingrained movement pattern in a few hours can be problematic.  Not much time for short game lessons!  

Vigorous yes. Absolutely agree with that. And I also see him looking for good tempo and rhythm. I also could just be confusing the athletic move we see on tv with what people who have never felt athletic in golf look different. Absolutely agree with your thoughts.

[iceman1118]

54 minutes ago, glk said:

Kwon is teaching a motion that he researched starting with swing plane (he defined a functional swing plane), then by measuring lots of pro swings, long drive swings with Chris Como in around 2013/14 - it is from this research that he identified the motion that produces the best use of the ground.     As he stated the step drills are, in his view, the simplist drills to learn the motion.     Folks that go to him, if they put in the work, will gain length and accuracy - he is eliminating inefficiencies in their swing and they are not swinging out of their shoes.      I think you are making this into something it is not - lots of good teachers having been teaching this motion and going to Kwon's certification classes for around 5 years or so.     Good teachers have been teaching this motion for some time now.    The short game including wedges out to around 70 yards is a different swing than full swing - you wouldn't be making this same motion or necessarily a shortened version of it.

Great point. I don't dispute any of it at all. Quite frankly I never heard of Dr Kwon until Brendan had him on his channel. So watching his stuff is new to me. 

 

I wasn't trying to make anything out of it. Was just trying to get the discussion going. Glad I did because this is what makes this place great sometimes is hearing everyone dissect it. Always learn something when that happens.

[iceman1118]

36 minutes ago, ezpz said:

Considering you are already quick, you are probably doing a lot of things right already. This groundforce/kwon stuff can be an immense help for players who are inefficient and not quick (I started the groundforce stuff in real life lessons at the start of offseason before I found dr Kwon and went from 96mph average to 105 average). I think a lot of slower/less powerful player stand to gain immensely from undertanding how to swing more athleticaly. Obviously if someone is at 115 already there can be other considerations.

That's a solid increase. Very impressive quite frankly. Glad it is working for you. Has it helped your game/scores at all?

[PracticeSwinger]

14 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There is too much extremism is golf instruction.  You’re casting, hold the lag.  You’re coming out of posture, keep your head down.  Your hips aren’t getting open, fire them.  Your arms are behind you, throw them at the ball.  In all of those situations the golfer would get worse.

 

One of the biggest reasons so many people fail to get better, even with lessons is all the false dichotomies.  There’s a blend and the answer is almost always between the extremes. 

Yes!... I think this comes from the 'easy' binary way of thinking... if something is deficient, well obviously the contrary is adequate... yeah, but to some extent...

 

and it's even more complicated when it relates to golf instruction because, for the most part, we need exaggeration drills to 'feel' the difference - but in no way will my swing be more efficient if it becomes the sum of all of the exaggerations I need to practice from the root causes of my problems... (hello Tin cup haha)

 

I think those that can blend a bit of 'ah, that's what I feel when I get to my lead side early' without trying to press their way to Australia after a while, and move on to another piece to become even more efficient are the ones that can ingrain good patterns (and refine them in the long run)... my uneducated 2 cents

[Nels55]

27 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Yes!... I think this comes from the 'easy' binary way of thinking... if something is deficient, well obviously the contrary is adequate... yeah, but to some extent...

 

and it's even more complicated when it relates to golf instruction because, for the most part, we need exaggeration drills to 'feel' the difference - but in no way will my swing be more efficient if it becomes the sum of all of the exaggerations I need to practice from the root causes of my problems... (hello Tin cup haha)

 

I think those that can blend a bit of 'ah, that's what I feel when I get to my lead side early' without trying to press their way to Australia after a while, and move on to another piece to become even more efficient are the ones that can ingrain good patterns (and refine them in the long run)... my uneducated 2 cents

Absolutely.  Over doing a move is certainly in my arsenal.  Another thing that happens to me quite often is that I get a new move and looks better and works better but feels wrong or awkward.  Anyway, I get the feel of it and keep repeating it but after a while if I check the video I will notice that even though it feels like I am making the new move I am back to my old move.  LOL tough game golf...  

[glk]

52 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s about blending movements not maxing out 1 or 2.  
 

If you over do any of the body forces you rob the others.

 

Too much lateral leads to loss in vertical and rotational.  
 

The same for body movements at the expense of arm and wrist movements and vice versa

 

I can increase anyones club speed from 1 swing to the next, but if they have no chance of putting the club on the ball, what good is it.

 

There is too much extremism is golf instruction.  You’re casting, hold the lag.  You’re coming out of posture, keep your head down.  Your hips aren’t getting open, fire them.  Your arms are behind you, throw them at the ball.  In all of those situations the golfer would get worse.

 

One of the biggest reasons so many people fail to get better, even with lessons is all the false dichotomies.  There’s a blend and the answer is almost always between the extremes.  
 

 

 

and along with that goes the focus on averages.   These are measured pga tour averages from Scott Lynn.   And then an example of numbers that get that average and sd.    And Matt kuchar has been measured, by lynn,  having only 41% of his pressure on his lead foot at impact with driver - when he was hitting it well and finished top ten that week.  

 

as Scott Lynn likes to say we humans are messy.

 

[Hilts1969]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Yes!  LOL I have a tendency to slip into my old ingrained wrong way lean backswing without realizing it which may well contribute to the arms taking over.  Sometimes I am pretty sure it is mental.  Anxiety or panic or whatever and I tighten up and arm swing it with my body stopping at some point and it can get pretty ugly.  It's a work in progress.

 

Know the feeling very well:-)

[ezpz]

59 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

That's a solid increase. Very impressive quite frankly. Glad it is working for you. Has it helped your game/scores at all?

I havent played a round yet because of the weather/conditions. I'm curious myself how much it will help my scores so we will see.

Edited February 9, 2022 by ezpz

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, glk said:

 

and along with that goes the focus on averages.   These are measured pga tour averages from Scott Lynn.   And then an example of numbers that get that average and sd.    And Matt kuchar has been measured, by lynn,  having only 41% of his pressure on his lead foot at impact with driver - when he was hitting it well and finished top ten that week.  

 

as Scott Lynn likes to say we humans are messy.

 

I would like to add, “What’s the top of the swing?” 😜

 

The number of people that have ruined their swings and built horrific sets of clubs aspiring to track man tour averages is more than the number of times my ex wife has cursed me.

[glk]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I would like to add, “What’s the top of the swing?” 😜

 

The number of people that have ruined their swings and built horrific sets of clubs aspiring to track man tour averages is more than the number of times my ex wife has cursed me.

Yep and Lynn’s points was need the sd to make sense of averages (the tour first gave him just the averages so he had to ask for the sd) and that if those golfers from his numbers example would be chasing the average then probably a lot of them would be messed up - kuchar trying to get to 75% at impact might be selling shoes.

[Nels55]

Here is an interesting interpretation of Dr. Kwons teaching by Todd Kolb:

https://usgolftv.com/instruction/3-concepts-from-dr-kwons-biomechanics-that-improved-my-teaching/

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, glk said:

Yep and Lynn’s points was need the sd to make sense of averages (the tour first gave him just the averages so he had to ask for the sd) and that if those golfers from his numbers example would be chasing the average then probably a lot of them would be messed up - kuchar trying to get to 75% at impact might be selling shoes.

Agree

[leekgolf]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:08 PM, glk said:

Agreed on last two posts.  
 

Reminds me of the iteach right shoulder toward  left foot.  That intent was a big piece  in improving my swing and of course along the way I regressed and took a couple of lessons with monte to clean it up.     Golf.
 

Different ways to get it done.    

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Blai33GlPz7/

 

Hey @glk ! I hope you're doing well in your new place! Are you talking about the backswing?  

 

Are you a lefty and I didn't know or maybe possibly forgot?

[Daniel Eason]

How much does pulling the club inside in the backswing have an impact on swing speed?

 

I seem to be visibly pulling it inside yet still getting speeds that are acceptable. 

 

Id like the club to get a bit more in front of me but this is where it naturally goes with the push off the left side. 

Edit....

 

I appreciate you haven't seen a video but I'm wondering if I'm not forceful enough in the backswing. See kwon talk about this 4 odd minutes to the end. 

 

 

Will try this feel next on the range. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Daniel Eason

[glk]

21 hours ago, leekgolf said:

Hey @glk ! I hope you're doing well in your new place! Are you talking about the backswing?  

 

Are you a lefty and I didn't know or maybe possibly forgot?

Yep. Backswing.   Righty.     Not quite there  yet - we have a place in Rio Rancho and are putting our place in Kodak on the market this month - trading the views of the smokies for Sandia  peak.     Won’t miss the 14 million yearly visitors to the smokies.   

 

 View from bosque brewery patio which is a few miles from our new place.

have yet to eat at los pollos Hermanos but we almost bought a place a block from Jesse pinkman's house, lol.  

 

 

[glk]

34 minutes ago, Daniel Eason said:

How much does pulling the club inside in the backswing have an impact on swing speed?

 

I seem to be visibly pulling it inside yet still getting speeds that are acceptable. 

 

Id like the club to get a bit more in front of me but this is where it naturally goes with the push off the left side. 

Edit....

 

I appreciate you haven't seen a video but I'm wondering if I'm not forceful enough in the backswing. See kwon talk about this 4 odd minutes to the end. 

 

 

Will try this feel next on the range. 

More likely you are using your arms versus body.  Swing a weight.

Edited February 10, 2022 by glk

[Daniel Eason]

Just now, glk said:

More likely you are using your arms versus body.

 

Maybe, i personally Don't feel anything in arms. Just pushing off the left side to start continuous motion. 

 

I need to do some experiments. 

[Nard_S]

38 minutes ago, Daniel Eason said:

How much does pulling the club inside in the backswing have an impact on swing speed?

Has more of an impact on path and face and not in a good way.

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Daniel Eason said:

Id like the club to get a bit more in front of me but this is where it naturally goes with the push off the left side. 

 

 

If that's where it naturally wants to go why change it?  When the left shoulder goes out the left arm and club naturally come in. 

 

 

[ezra76]

I've been doing a lot of the drills as well as working out. Finally was able to go hit wedges in a field today as snow melting. I had setup with my normal PW shots and paced them off at around 115-120. I decided to really try to rip one with arms loose and got the sync just right. That ball, plugged in the mud, I pace off at 159. Not that I'd ever try to hit a PW that far on the course but dang I was surprised. 

[SPIF]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

If that's where it naturally wants to go why change it?  When the left shoulder goes out the left arm and club naturally come in. 

 

 

For one, those are vastly different viewpoints, so the position of the club and arms don’t correlate at all.  Secondly, it’s not conjecture that a myriad of issues arise from sucking the club well inside due to excessive lead arm rotation.  
 

Honest question Zitlow: have you ever studied the swing for yourself, or is your entire repertoire of swing knowledge based off Mike Austin soundbytes?

[Zitlow]

@SPIFI took lessons from several club pros and driving range pros including Kevin Kirk and Butch Harmon when he lived in Houston and didn't get any better.

 

Mike Austin taught me how to swing the club on a dynamic plane. Since you don't get Mike Austin, you won't get the concept. 🙂

[Hilts1969]

8 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

If that's where it naturally wants to go why change it?  When the left shoulder goes out the left arm and club naturally come in. 

 

 

 

Showing those 2 pics is bad advice due to camera angles,  one thing you can see which shows perfectly why the poster is sucking it inside are the shoulders , sneads shoulder plane is at the ground a few feet past the ball. The posters is at the wall next to him. If you drew a plane line on that his would touch the ground in the next county.

 

hip and shoulder tilts are far too flat he isn’t moving the club with the hips correctly. 

[Zitlow]

@hiltsAgree that @Daniel Easonis too flat with his shoulders and hips. When the left shoulder goes out the left arm comes in. When the left shoulder goes down the left arm and shaft go up. It isn't complicated. 

 

 

Mike Dunaway - Better camera angle

 

[Nard_S]

I would point out that unless you have Sam Snead's leg action, better to not mimic his inside takeaway. He is Gene Kelly, & we are doing "the bump" at our middle school dance.

[Duffer Mark]

I’m finally making good contact after trying to use the ground better. However, my lower back is still getting a little sore. It’s a little sore in this swing which is why I think I’m swaying a little on the back swing. 

 

[glk]

1 hour ago, Duffer Mark said:

I’m finally making good contact after trying to use the ground better. However, my lower back is still getting a little sore. It’s a little sore in this swing which is why I think I’m swaying a little on the back swing. 

 

This is typical of too flat of a turn.  Upper body sway.

 

 Your left knee has to work straight out toward your toes - this drops the left hip and always you to side bend to have a good shoulder tilt which will get your shoulder under your chin.  Too flat hips leads to too flat shoulders.   Your left knee now works too much inward and not enough outward.   Need to get that left shoulder under your chin.