2022 Course Conditions - Phoenix Area

[HercNav]

Troon Monument: greens were incredibly beat up with unfixed ball marks.  Otherwise, decent conditions. 

[cbbaron]

21 hours ago, HercNav said:

Troon Monument: greens were incredibly beat up with unfixed ball marks.  Otherwise, decent conditions. 

Im always amazed hoe beat up Troons greens look but that they never really come in to play and greens roll fine

[AzSuperHack76]

I was out at the Patriot All America today. Man, those kids are so good. Watched group after group throw darts into 18 all day. Course is in amazing shape as well. Highly recommending getting out tomorrow to watch the final day, and highly recommend getting out next week to play the course being in such great shape. 

[jatrain]

TPC Champions today.  Greens were a little slow as they had soaked up all the rain but course was great.  $80 walking rate (you gotta ask for it). 

[hackeraz]

Got to jump on a couple new to me tracks last week. Thursday went out to GCU, mostly because it was the only place we could get a tee time before 2pm, and hit 18. All in all doesn't seem like a bad route, especially for the rate, but also didn't seem terribly memorable. Tons of sirens the entire round which I guess is probably par for that neighborhood. Greens were rolling really good though but the sparse, dormant bermuda (on a parks course?) was terrible to play out of especially since everything was so soggy from all the rain. Still had a good time. 

 

Friday headed up to The Boulders and hit the South course. That practice green is in shambles from what I'd suspect is some sort of fungus issue, and didn't leave me very confident that the greens would be much better. Thankfully the issue seemed confined to the practice area as the greens on course were pretty good, fast, and true. Enjoyed the layout for the most part and got to see some great wildlife including a squadron of javelina and a pretty friendly bobcat. 

[Bob Cat]

Bobcat's are your friend... and they love beer.  Just say'n.

[chisag]

55 minutes ago, hackeraz said:

Got to jump on a couple new to me tracks last week. Thursday went out to GCU, mostly because it was the only place we could get a tee time before 2pm, and hit 18. All in all doesn't seem like a bad route, especially for the rate, but also didn't seem terribly memorable. Tons of sirens the entire round which I guess is probably par for that neighborhood.

 

 

... Yup, just not a memorable course that's flat with not a mountain in site. This fall GCU started charging the same to walk or ride. Only park district course to do this although to be fair it is run by GCU. I didn't spend $1500 on a remote controlled cart so I could be charged the same as someone riding. Combined with rounds always closer to 5 hours than 4, GCU is off my playing list permanently. 

[AZ_JHWK]

I had a different experience at GCU. Played there twice in December and was Charged $48 walking with the city card. I think it's $69 with a cart. 

[MackDaddy480]

1 minute ago, AZ_JHWK said:

I had a different experience at GCU. Played there twice in December and was Charged $48 walking with the city card. I think it's $69 with a cart. 

I also had the same thing at GCU, paid $48 to walk mid-December with the city card.

[chisag]

... It is the twilite rate that did away with walking rates and playing 5 times week, I only play twilite. 🤑

[Sam_Wise11]

After all the debating, I decided to bring my clubs and got to play Southern Dunes last Tuesday. Got paired with a two gals from New York and a gentleman from Maine. Was probably the most fun I've had getting paired with randoms! We were all cheering for each other and what not - score couldn't have mattered less.

Course conditions were in great shape. Greens were quick and rolled very true - not much break in them at all. Brought the wife with and she even had fun riding along! Would definitely recommend to any local or visitor looking to play a well conditioned course that won't break the bank.

I will say: On their website, they state that they charge $100 to have your own cart or if you have a non-golfer riding with you (says due to COVID). I called to confirm this and was told that it's only $25 for a non-golfing rider and needs to be pre-approved by management. So if you're in the same boat as I was, definitely call ahead to get this taken care of ahead of time.

[MrGoobers]

We are going to have 2 foursomes out in early march. We already have 36 holes at Talking Stick booked on Saturday and I'm looking for something else on Friday. I've never been to the area and have guys ranging from about 6 hdcp to 22.

 

We are staying in Fountain Hills very near We Ko Pa but they only have twilight times left that are not guaranteed to finish by dark. Eagle Mountain is close but the fees in March are nearing $300 which I would be willing to pay for great views and good conditions but I just don't hear anything about that place so I'm unsure if $260 there is worth it. Sunridge looks cool with great views but I think my high handicap friends are going to struggle there. I'm also looking at TPC Champions course where I can trust the conditions but it's a little farther and not as much in the mountains as Eagle or Sunridge. Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Also, any suggestions for other golf related activities like a short course, lighted par 3, putting course, etc.? Thanks!

[MackDaddy480]

I would suggest taking a look at Camelback Golf Club. They have 36 holes and are 2 nice courses.

 

Check out Mountain Shadows short course.

[chisag]

23 minutes ago, MackDaddy480 said:

I would suggest taking a look at Camelback Golf Club. They have 36 holes and are 2 nice courses.

 

Check out Mountain Shadows short course.

 

 

... I am going to call your Padre and raise you Ambiente. I find Padre average in almost every way but I do really enjoy playing Ambiente. $200 for Padre is at least $150 too much. Ambiente is a unique lay out with a British Open feel and nice views of the mountains. Still too expensive in winter but visitors create a supply and demand so it is what it is. Locals play in summer for $59 or less. 

[fore_life]

Arizona has a whopping total of zero lit courses which has blown my mind for years

[tcbringhurst]

3 hours ago, fore_life said:

Arizona has a whopping total of zero lit courses which has blown my mind for years

I know that 500 club used to light their range, but the bugs became a nuisance so they stopped doing that. I wonder if that’s why we don’t have any lit courses?

[cbbaron]

22 hours ago, fore_life said:

Arizona has a whopping total of zero lit courses which has blown my mind for years

More than likely a money losing proposition

[fore_life]

19 minutes ago, cbbaron said:

More than likely a money losing proposition

you think? Night golf in summer would be nice, and it’s not like it gets too cold to play in the winter here, that’s 4 more hours they could be fleecing the snowbirds !

 I’d also bet that led and other lighting solutions are much more viable than the old hps or metal halide lighting etc

Edited January 15, 2023 by fore_life

[cbbaron]

1 hour ago, fore_life said:

you think? Night golf in summer would be nice, and it’s not like it gets too cold to play in the winter here, that’s 4 more hours they could be fleecing the snowbirds !

 I’d also bet that led and other lighting solutions are much more viable than the old hps or metal halide lighting etc

Probably too much liability carts at that hour and how about summer when wildlife comes out at dusk. Also possible issue with neighborhoods

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, cbbaron said:

Probably too much liability carts at that hour and how about summer when wildlife comes out at dusk. Also possible issue with neighborhoods

 

... Back when I was in high school in Greensboro NcC, they had a couple of either par 3 or executive lighted courses. Since golf was for fat guys smoking cigarettes in really bad clothes, I wasn't interested but went a few times to tag along with friends and just watched. Everyone seemed to really enjoy it. If I remember correctly there were no cart's and everyone walked. 

[chisag]

On 12/24/2022 at 12:32 PM, puttnforthe8 said:

Greens were rolling so well and a great speed. 

 

 

... Since this is my 4th year here in paradise, I need to complete my agronomy thesis. Playing bent most of my life I am still a little confused by the greens. Using the "Tucson" course that shall not be named, right after over seeding they were rolling like a CC. Smoothest I have ever seen. Now several months later there seems to be two grasses fighting each other and late in the day when I play, the ball starts to wander over the uneven grass. Staring to have some bare spots as well. All in all no real complaints for the price but having a downhill putt from 8 feet that can be putted 5 times and do 5 different things wandering side to side like a Chinese checkerboard is frustrating and something I never experienced on bent greens. To be fair they are subtle movements not egregious throw it completely off line movements.

... Sooooo what kind of grass is it that causes these conditions?  

[Bonneville85308]

23 hours ago, fore_life said:

you think? Night golf in summer would be nice, and it’s not like it gets too cold to play in the winter here, that’s 4 more hours they could be fleecing the snowbirds !

 I’d also bet that led and other lighting solutions are much more viable than the old hps or metal halide lighting etc

 

There's one in the Palm Springs area (The Lights at Indio, 2777 yard par 54), no idea how much night play it gets.  I have no facts but I think something this would do well in the right location around Phoenix. There was talk about an upcoming total renovation of Rolling Hills in Tempe that would include lights for night play, and that seems like an ideal candidate for it; central location in a safe area, no houses around it to complain about the lights, close to ASU, etc. The course is already going to be there getting maintained for daytime play, so it really comes down to how long it takes to sell enough nighttime green fees to recoup the cost of buying and installing the lights. Otherwise once that's paid for, I'd have to think you would only need a dozen or so people to play per night to offset the cost of paying a guy $14/hr to work the shop after dark and the electricity for the lights. Sell some beer and the numbers look even better.

[StudentGolfer4]

13 hours ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Since this is my 4th year here in paradise, I need to complete my agronomy thesis. Playing bent most of my life I am still a little confused by the greens. Using the "Tucson" course that shall not be named, right after over seeding they were rolling like a CC. Smoothest I have ever seen. Now several months later there seems to be two grasses fighting each other and late in the day when I play, the ball starts to wander over the uneven grass. Staring to have some bare spots as well. All in all no real complaints for the price but having a downhill putt from 8 feet that can be putted 5 times and do 5 different things wandering side to side like a Chinese checkerboard is frustrating and something I never experienced on bent greens. To be fair they are subtle movements not egregious throw it completely off line movements.

... Sooooo what kind of grass is it that causes these conditions?  

As the Bermuda goes dormant Rye grass is growing during the winter/overseed. I think this may be what you’re referring to? Personally I think all courses should stop overseeding. Move the tee boxes around a bit, change where the carts enter/exit the paths, and adjust to the faster green speeds. 
 

With the current water challenges facing AZ and much of the west this would be a good start for the golf industry. 

[chisag]

2 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

As the Bermuda goes dormant Rye grass is growing during the winter/overseed.

 

 

... So the Bermuda is slowly dying off and the Rye is taking over? Just interesting that it has gotten patchy when it was perfect a few weeks after the over seed. I don't play in the mornings so no idea how they roll as I always play twilite and the later the hour the slower and more erratic the greens get. Just never faced this back in Chicago on bent greens. Thanks ...

[fore_life]

3 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

As the Bermuda goes dormant Rye grass is growing during the winter/overseed. I think this may be what you’re referring to? Personally I think all courses should stop overseeding. Move the tee boxes around a bit, change where the carts enter/exit the paths, and adjust to the faster green speeds. 
 

With the current water challenges facing AZ and much of the west this would be a good start for the golf industry. 

Dormant Bermuda greens would be totally destroyed by frost/high foot traffic 

[StudentGolfer4]

@chisag I’m sure someone can give you a better answer but I believe that is correct. If @BNGL is still around he’s an expert and could better explain the process and would most likely know exactly you are describing. 
 

@fore_life would it? Have you seen this happen before? If a place like Pinehurst that is booked from sunup to sundown 12 months a year can do it I’m betting other courses could too. I would also guess they deal with frost more often than courses in the PHX area. Yes, I know 2 and 4 are primarily walking only but others aren’t. #8 is the third most popular course there and is almost all carts. Sure they have many more resources than Dobson ranch or Aguila but Ive never heard a good reason why a place like We Ko Pa or Troon North couldn’t do the same. Not overseeding allows for better playing conditions in the fall and the course can come out of dormancy faster in the spring. 
 

Over thanksgiving I spoke to the superintended at a club up in Peoria and asked him if they have considered not overseeding. He laughed and told me he considered it every year but he hasn’t gotten the OK from the membership yet, but given the rise in seed costs it’s been getting a bit more traction. He believed that if the club would allow him to do it just 1 year the members would see how much better the playing surfaces were and they would never overseed again. I asked why they always overseed if he’s against it and he said athletics. The large majority of members are snow birds and they expect green courses. 
 

Below is a good article on why courses don’t have necessarily have to overseed. https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2018/01/going-green--golf-courses-benefit-by-painting-fairways-instead-o.html
 

[chisag]

13 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I asked why they always overseed if he’s against it and he said athletics. The large majority of members are snow birds and they expect green courses. 
 

Below is a good article on why courses don’t have necessarily have to overseed. https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2018/01/going-green--golf-courses-benefit-by-painting-fairways-instead-o.html

 

 

... Ignorance and putting lipstick on a pig is a really bad reason to do anything on a golf course. I would happily play tan greens and fairways if it provided the best conditions. I moved to Phoenix for the natural mountain views, indigenous wildlife and dormant warm winter courses. Painting courses green is just the dumbest sh!t I have ever seen.

[MackDaddy480]

20 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

@chisag I’m sure someone can give you a better answer but I believe that is correct. If @BNGL is still around he’s an expert and could better explain the process and would most likely know exactly you are describing. 
 

@fore_life would it? Have you seen this happen before? If a place like Pinehurst that is booked from sunup to sundown 12 months a year can do it I’m betting other courses could too. I would also guess they deal with frost more often than courses in the PHX area. Yes, I know 2 and 4 are primarily walking only but others aren’t. #8 is the third most popular course there and is almost all carts. Sure they have many more resources than Dobson ranch or Aguila but Ive never heard a good reason why a place like We Ko Pa or Troon North couldn’t do the same. Not overseeding allows for better playing conditions in the fall and the course can come out of dormancy faster in the spring. 
 

Over thanksgiving I spoke to the superintended at a club up in Peoria and asked him if they have considered not overseeding. He laughed and told me he considered it every year but he hasn’t gotten the OK from the membership yet, but given the rise in seed costs it’s been getting a bit more traction. He believed that if the club would allow him to do it just 1 year the members would see how much better the playing surfaces were and they would never overseed again. I asked why they always overseed if he’s against it and he said athletics. The large majority of members are snow birds and they expect green courses. 
 

Below is a good article on why courses don’t have necessarily have to overseed. https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2018/01/going-green--golf-courses-benefit-by-painting-fairways-instead-o.html
 

 

I used to work at a private club up in north Scottsdale and they overseed for the same reason. The couse would play a lot better and be a lot more fun if they did not overseed but 90% of the memership has 2nd/3rd home elsewhere so when they come to AZ in the winter they want to see green grass.

Edited January 16, 2023 by MackDaddy480

[chisag]

7 hours ago, MackDaddy480 said:

 

I used to work at a private club up in north Scottsdale and they overseed for the same reason. The couse would play a lot better and be a lot more fun if they did not overseed but 90% of the memership has 2nd/3rd home elsewhere so when they come to AZ in the winter they want to see green grass.

 

 

... Talking with a landscaper about planting later this winter and telling him I am only interested in indigenous plants and trees, he just laughed and knocked knuckles with me. Said I wouldn't believe how many customers from other climates move here and want what they had at home. Or just as bad, something they saw in pictures. They have to sign an agreement saying they understand these plants/trees/flowers may not survive and it is against his recommendations. Mind boggling that some have more money than brains, they just have him re-plant the same plants/trees/flowers after they die. Sometimes ya gotta wonder how the human race made it this far...

Edited January 17, 2023 by chisag

[fore_life]

Does pinehurst use Bermuda?