2022 Course Conditions - Phoenix Area

[StudentGolfer4]

1 hour ago, fore_life said:

Does pinehurst use Bermuda?

Yes, which is why I used it as an example.  Different courses on property switched at different times but 2010-14 appears to have been the timeline. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by StudentGolfer4

[fore_life]

Interesting!!!

 

Found this

https://ukturf.ca.uky.edu/sites/ukturf.ca.uky.edu/files/2022-02/traffic dormant bermuda.pdf

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by fore_life

[Bonneville85308]

21 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Yes, which is why I used it as an example.  Different courses on property switched at different times but 2010-14 appears to have been the timeline. 

 

My understanding is that Pinehurst #2 and #4 are cart path-only at all times, so cart traffic wear isn't a factor on the dormant bermuda there. Pinehurst also has a completely different soil profile than what you find in Phoenix metro.

 

Your typical lower or mid level Phoenix area course, where the tee sheet is completely full with 8 or 9 minute tee time intervals from dawn until 2pm 7 days per week from November through April with almost everyone riding, would probably have the fairways completely worn down to hardpan dirt by cart traffic and the par 3 tee boxes in similar condition by some point in January if they don't overseed. We have some of the worst soil in the country for golf courses, it tends to be heavily compacted, clay-like, and drains poorly.  God forbid it rains when the grass is dormant, it just turns into a muddy mess.

 

Bob and Sue from Minnesota aren't going to repeatedly pay $100+ each to play in those conditions, the courses care about them and their money in winter, not us locals. Personally I think the only way a public course could be successful here in winter without overseeding is if they are competing solely on price and can be among the cheapest, if several courses go out of business and lower the overall golf capacity of the area, or if they are a 36+ hole facility and overseed one or more of the others on property.

 

A high end private club here can get away with not overseeding due to having a fraction of the number of rounds played compared to a typical public course, possibly a higher proportion of walking rounds, a membership that is invested in and theoretically takes more care of their home course by following cart rules, etc.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Bonneville85308

[AZ_JHWK]

Last time I played GCU, I noticed one fairway on each 9 was not overseeded. I didn't stop to ask anyone but maybe they are conducting an experiment. 

[fore_life]

Yeah all you have to do is look at the dormant rough areas around the greens at places like Dobson to see how poorly it holds up.

 

Vistal(rip) used to not overseed the greens and they were great until the first frost hit and they would become sandy and bare

[Pants87]

Heading is AZ at the end of the month here.. While every course is expensive, we are intentionally avoiding those that are insanely priced this time of year - the below is my best attempt at an ‘affordable’ yet quality course list:

 

- GCU

- Aguila

- Legend Trail

- Legacy

- Raven

- Southern Dunes 

 

Any of these you’d recommend avoiding?

 

Also, will a 2pm twighlight round have a chance at finishing 18? Looks like ~6pm sunset. 

[chisag]

15 minutes ago, Pants87 said:

Any of these you’d recommend avoiding?

 

 

... I am not a fan of Legend Trails. But avoid GCU, especially if you are fighting sunlight and visiting Phoenix I would be disappointed in a flat course with no scenic views nor mountains in sight. 

[Bonneville85308]

30 minutes ago, Pants87 said:

Heading is AZ at the end of the month here.. While every course is expensive, we are intentionally avoiding those that are insanely priced this time of year - the below is my best attempt at an ‘affordable’ yet quality course list:

 

- GCU

- Aguila

- Legend Trail

- Legacy

- Raven

- Southern Dunes 

 

Any of these you’d recommend avoiding?

 

Also, will a 2pm twighlight round have a chance at finishing 18? Looks like ~6pm sunset. 

 

Take Legend Trail off the list if you are trying to keep things affordable. You are looking at $200+ this month for anything with at least a remote chance of finishing before dark.

[puttnforthe8]

1 hour ago, Pants87 said:

Heading is AZ at the end of the month here.. While every course is expensive, we are intentionally avoiding those that are insanely priced this time of year - the below is my best attempt at an ‘affordable’ yet quality course list:

 

- GCU

- Aguila

- Legend Trail

- Legacy

- Raven

- Southern Dunes 

 

Any of these you’d recommend avoiding?

 

Also, will a 2pm twighlight round have a chance at finishing 18? Looks like ~6pm sunset. 

ZERO chance of finishing anything after 2.

 

Raven is $200; Legacy is $140; Legend is $225

 

Recommended plan - assuming you are willing to drive a bit extra:

 

Vistancia

GC of Estrella

Copper Canyon

Southern Dunes

Aguila

Wigwam

 

Outside of an itinerary like this you are either paying $1000-1400 for 6 rounds or playing the dregs of the valley.

 

Dregs:  Western Skies, Kokpelli, Ken Mcdonald, Foothills, Dove Valley, Legend Arrowhead, etc

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by puttnforthe8

[chisag]

11 minutes ago, puttnforthe8 said:

Dregs:  Western Skies, Kokpelli, Ken Mcdonald, Foothills, Dove Valley, Legend Arrowhead, etc

 

 

... I see you have left Ahwatukee Country Club off the list. You know it's not private right?  

[puttnforthe8]

18 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... I see you have left Ahwatukee Country Club off the list. You know it's not private right?  

 

LOL...that's incl in the "etc".....but technically is a level below "dreg" these days.  

[Pants87]

1 hour ago, puttnforthe8 said:

ZERO chance of finishing anything after 2.

 

Raven is $200; Legacy is $140; Legend is $225

 

Recommended plan - assuming you are willing to drive a bit extra:

 

Vistancia

GC of Estrella

Copper Canyon

Southern Dunes

Aguila

Wigwam

 

Outside of an itinerary like this you are either paying $1000-1400 for 6 rounds or playing the dregs of the valley.

 

Dregs:  Western Skies, Kokpelli, Ken Mcdonald, Foothills, Dove Valley, Legend Arrowhead, etc

 

 

 

 

I appreciate the feedback and list -

wigwam and Estrella seem close and similarly priced - any preference there? If Wigwam, any recommendation on which of their 3 courses?

[Kuhndogg8]

8 hours ago, Pants87 said:

I appreciate the feedback and list -

wigwam and Estrella seem close and similarly priced - any preference there? If Wigwam, any recommendation on which of their 3 courses?

 

Estrella and it's not close.  Would also look into Verrado.  Might be priced a little above the courses mentioned, but for what you're getting it's a great option.  It won't be completely insane like the stuff on the East side of time.

[puttnforthe8]

4 hours ago, Kuhndogg8 said:

 

Estrella and it's not close.  Would also look into Verrado.  Might be priced a little above the courses mentioned, but for what you're getting it's a great option.  It won't be completely insane like the stuff on the East side of time.

 

@Pants87Estrella is the far better course and views.  If you have to play Wigwam, the gold is the better course.  But Red is not that bad, just shorter.

 

@Kuhndogg8 Verrado is $200 post tax, so getting up there in price.

[fore_life]

Per a buddy of mine, the greens at verrado founders are TRASH as of Monday, he said it looks like there’s a poa infestation or something

[AzSuperHack76]

Falcon Dunes today, still drying out from all of the rain. Greens were super soft, ripped a few off the green due to the spin, they are usually pretty firm for the most part so took a few holes to get used to. Overall the course is in decent shape, bunkers still leave a lot to be desired. 

 

Pace was exactly 4 hours teeing off in the afternoon. 

 

To the geriatric 2some that hit into us as we were walking off the green on 18, eat poop you depends wearing geezers. 

[ScubaSteve]

Will be down in east Tempe the week after Super Bowl for family trip. Hoping to get in 3 rounds under about $90 (paying for a few older teens and CDN $ so have to add 35% too. 😳). Have a few courses booked at various times at this price point or lower. Looking for thoughts on conditions and course recommendations between these guys. Would prefer morning rounds (Duke, Wigwam Red) but if I can get early afternoon ones for cheaper at the other ones that might work. Thanks. 
 

- Wigwam Gold

- Wigwam Red

- Longbow (after 2:00 may be too late)

- The Duke (only morning round available under $90)

- Mountain Brook (interested as only $65 after 1:30)

Edited January 22, 2023 by ScubaSteve