distance debate

[mahonie]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

That's what the instructors and teachers are saying/writing.

I watched McDowell doing a set at the Irish Open a few years back for Sky. He was saying he has a stock shot for the PGA Tour...baby draw iirc. Find the yardage to hole, find the club that hits closest to that yardage and hit the shot. At the Irish Open he said he was practicing 9 'stock shots.' High draw, mid draw, low draw, high fade, mid fade, low fade, high, mid, low straight shots. Wind was the major factor behind his thinking, but also that you had to shape shots to take advantage of the undulations on the ground. Tiger says much the same thing in 'Chronicles of a Champion Golfer.'

The way PGA Tour courses are set up, unless you get in trouble, there's no need to shape shots. Friend of mine who does not have access to golf on the TV at home (he will admit he's tight!), watched some of a PGA Tour event on holiday the other week. It was the first time he'd watched the PGA Tour and he asked me when the pros started playing with only 3 clubs. He was being facetious and meant that during the coverage he'd seen, he only saw shots with driver, wedge and putter.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Yes, but what are you doing in the trees in the first place?  😁

 

I fight a hook with my irons.  First was on a <300 yard par four and there were people on the green. Instead of waiting, I teed off with an iron.  A five iron iirc.  Only missed the fairway by about 10 yards but there are those stupid bradford pears between the fairway and a road.

 

The second scenario is a par four hole that is like 345 yards with a large dip in the fairway that doglegs left.  I teed off with the 5 iron again as that will leave me about 150 from a pretty flat spot in the fairway.  Drive it any further and you go down into the bottom and you cannot see the green surface from down there.  Go well too far and you can't even see the top of the flagstick.  I usually try to hug the inside of the dogleg to shorten the approach.  Most of the time you can play from the trees left.  That time included.  I parred both holes.

 

Red dots are where the ball was.  Blue dots are where the hole was cut.  On #4 the yellow arrows are trying to show where the fairway dips down and then back up to the elevated green.  Red circle in the fairway is the flattish area around the 150 stake I try to lay up to.

 

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, mahonie said:

It was the first time he'd watched the PGA Tour and he asked me when the pros started playing with only 3 clubs. He was being facetious and meant that during the coverage he'd seen, he only saw shots with driver, wedge and putter.

 

I've done the math a little bit on here before.  If you keep in mind that "wedge" encompasses a club with lofts between [potentially] 42* and 64* degrees, a "wedge" can conceivably go (on a full shot) anywhere from 160 to 80 yards.

 

For a guy hitting it (total distance) 320 yards, and assuming a PW of 46* going about 150 yards, anything less than 470 yards is a driver-wedge hole barring circumstances that would cause him to lay up.  That PW distance is probably a little on the conservative side as well.  My traditional loft PW is my 145 yard club.  I cannot drive it 320 on the regular without some ground-aided help.

Edited August 11, 2022 by smashdn

[TLUBulldogGolf]

15 hours ago, clevited said:

 

It should not get disproportionately less fair for the more athletic player.  It already is naturally unfair as the further you hit the ball the more precise with everything you have to be.  Making the ball effectively act like a wiffle ball for the faster player would be a horrific thing to do.  The game is fine.  What you suggest is insanity. 

Yes when I hit it 50+ yards past my buddy my first thought is always how unfair it is that I have to be more precise.

 

 

[mahonie]

29 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I've done the math a little bit on here before.  If you keep in mind that "wedge" encompasses a club with lofts between [potentially] 42* and 64* degrees, a "wedge" can conceivably go (on a full shot) anywhere from 160 to 80 yards.

 

For a guy hitting it (total distance) 320 yards, and assuming a PW of 46* going about 150 yards, anything less than 370 yards is a driver-wedge hole barring circumstances that would cause him to lay up.  That PW distance is probably a little on the conservative side as well.  My traditional loft PW is my 145 yard club.  I cannot drive it 320 on the regular without some ground-aided help.

I think you mean anything less than 470 (320 + 150) yards is driver-wedge? Not that long ago that was recognised as a par 5.

 

As a comparison my driver is 260 yards with run and my 46 degree wedge maxes out at 120 yards, so a 'traditional' 500 yard+ par 5 on the flat is still a 3 shotter for me...although its not driver, 3-iron, 8-iron like it used to be!

[ThinkingPlus]

20 minutes ago, mahonie said:

I think you mean anything less than 470 (320 + 150) yards is driver-wedge? Not that long ago that was recognised as a par 5.

 

As a comparison my driver is 260 yards with run and my 46 degree wedge maxes out at 120 yards, so a 'traditional' 500 yard+ par 5 on the flat is still a 3 shotter for me...although its not driver, 3-iron, 8-iron like it used to be!

Uh, 470 hasn't been considered a par 5 distance for elite players for at least 30 - 40 years.  It would have been so only for very special holes with huge elevation change.

[clevited]

35 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Yes when I hit it 50+ yards past my buddy my first thought is always how unfair it is that I have to be more precise.

 

 

 

You may be downplaying how much more skill you have than your buddy to have kept the ball in play as well as you do while hitting it 50 yards past him.

[smashdn]

13 minutes ago, mahonie said:

I think you mean anything less than 470 (320 + 150) yards is driver-wedge? Not that long ago that was recognised as a par 5.

 

As a comparison my driver is 260 yards with run and my 46 degree wedge maxes out at 120 yards, so a 'traditional' 500 yard+ par 5 on the flat is still a 3 shotter for me...although its not driver, 3-iron, 8-iron like it used to be!

 

There you go.  I corrected it.  I thought that was funny looking at first when i typed it but I had an office full of people chatting and was distracted.  

 

Local course that hosted a KFT qualifier, it's par fives are 522, 498, 529 and 550.  I've reached in two on the 522 first hole as it plays a little downhill.  If you clear the fairway bunker with your drive it will catch the downhill slope to the bottom.  From the bottom it is a 6 or 7 iron.  Number 7 has a very elevated tee.  It took a heck of a shot but I've hit and held that green with a five iron.  I don't think I have ever got on two on #14 as the green is way above the fairway.  Penalty area down the right about 60 before the green up to the green and in behind it.  I will just lay up to 100 or so yards.  Last one , number 18, is uphill till about 150 then it hits the crest of a hill and plays flat after that.  A good drive still leaves you 250 - 290 yards out.  You can do it/try it but it is blind due to the hill.  I usually just lay up but there are several fairway bunkers and hills and hollows in the lay up area.  Seems a little silly at first but sometimes it is best to play that driver - 7i -9i to keep it in that flat area if you aren't going to try and get it to jus the front of the green.

[mahonie]

45 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Uh, 470 hasn't been considered a par 5 distance for elite players for at least 30 - 40 years.  It would have been so only for very special holes with huge elevation change.

My point is that most courses these days are actually par 66/67 and there is no such thing as a par 5 for pros. Bryson was right when he called Augusta a par 68...for the pros it is. I have no issue with that as long as it is recognised as a par 68 and people stop drooling when so and so shot 64...its only 4 under par (!)...and a +6 handicap Pro is actually shooting 2 over his handicap. Semantics I know, but the modern game is all about distance...pars have to be brought in line so that average Joe is not hoodwinked into thinking that it us the be all and end all.

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, mahonie said:

My point is that most courses these days are actually par 66/67 and there is no such thing as a par 5 for pros. Bryson was right when he called Augusta a par 68...for the pros it is. I have no issue with that as long as it is recognised as a par 68 and people stop drooling when so and so shot 64...its only 4 under par (!)...and a +6 handicap Pro is actually shooting 2 over his handicap. Semantics I know, but the modern game is all about distance...pars have to be brought in line so that average Joe is not hoodwinked into thinking that it us the be all and end all.

Or just don't worry about it.

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 minutes ago, mahonie said:

My point is that most courses these days are actually par 66/67 and there is no such thing as a par 5 for pros. Bryson was right when he called Augusta a par 68...for the pros it is. I have no issue with that as long as it is recognised as a par 68 and people stop drooling when so and so shot 64...its only 4 under par (!)...and a +6 handicap Pro is actually shooting 2 over his handicap. Semantics I know, but the modern game is all about distance...pars have to be brought in line so that average Joe is not hoodwinked into thinking that it us the be all and end all.

 

Really? At par 68, the only player under par for the entire 2022 Masters tournament is... Nobody. If par were 68, Scheffler's final score (-10) would have been 6 over par for the entire tournament. Maybe I can admit it's only 4 over par if he didn't four-putt the 18th on Sunday 😉 

 

At par 72, the cut was +4. At par 72, the players who tied for 10th place finished E over all four rounds.

 

If par were 68, only 4 winners since 2000 would be even par or better for the entire 72 holes. https://www.golflink.com/list_5175_list-winners-masters-golf-tournament.html

 

Seems like Augusta is defending par just fine. 

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, mahonie said:

My point is that most courses these days are actually par 66/67 and there is no such thing as a par 5 for pros. Bryson was right when he called Augusta a par 68...for the pros it is. I have no issue with that as long as it is recognised as a par 68 and people stop drooling when so and so shot 64...its only 4 under par (!

04/10/22

Masters Tournament

CUT

76

80

 

04/11/21

Masters Tournament (2021)

T46

76

67

75

75

 

If Augusta is really a par 68 like Bryson says, well he isn't even a 4 handicap then. Thus a golfwrx 4 would wax him at Augusta

[mahonie]

55 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

There you go.  I corrected it.  I thought that was funny looking at first when i typed it but I had an office full of people chatting and was distracted.  

 

Local course that hosted a KFT qualifier, it's par fives are 522, 498, 529 and 550.  I've reached in two on the 522 first hole as it plays a little downhill.  If you clear the fairway bunker with your drive it will catch the downhill slope to the bottom.  From the bottom it is a 6 or 7 iron.  Number 7 has a very elevated tee.  It took a heck of a shot but I've hit and held that green with a five iron.  I don't think I have ever got on two on #14 as the green is way above the fairway.  Penalty area down the right about 60 before the green up to the green and in behind it.  I will just lay up to 100 or so yards.  Last one , number 18, is uphill till about 150 then it hits the crest of a hill and plays flat after that.  A good drive still leaves you 250 - 290 yards out.  You can do it/try it but it is blind due to the hill.  I usually just lay up but there are several fairway bunkers and hills and hollows in the lay up area.  Seems a little silly at first but sometimes it is best to play that driver - 7i -9i to keep it in that flat area if you aren't going to try and get it to jus the front of the green.

Typically par is determined by distance, we have a couple of par 5s at my home course that are just under 500 yards but in reality they are just long par 4s. We have a par 5 that is 565 yards that is reachable in 2 because there is a chute in front of the green that throws a really good shot forward. Par should be determined on the likelihood of the average golfer hitting the green in a specific number of shots which as I've said elsewhere would mean most courses would be par 66/67.

[mahonie]

7 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Or just don't worry about it.

Don't worry, I don't 😉

[smashdn]

11 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Really? At par 68, the only player under par for the entire 2022 Masters tournament is... Nobody. If par were 68, Scheffler's final score (-10) would have been 6 over par for the entire tournament. Maybe I can admit it's only 4 over par if he didn't four-putt the 18th on Sunday 😉 

 

At par 72, the cut was +4. At par 72, the players who tied for 10th place finished E over all four rounds.

 

If par were 68, only 4 winners since 2000 would be even par or better for the entire 72 holes. https://www.golflink.com/list_5175_list-winners-masters-golf-tournament.html

 

Seems like Augusta is defending par just fine. 

 

Scheffler was -8 on the par fives.  One bogey on them all week.

[mahonie]

7 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Really? At par 68, the only player under par for the entire 2022 Masters tournament is... Nobody. If par were 68, Scheffler's final score (-10) would have been 6 over par for the entire tournament. Maybe I can admit it's only 4 over par if he didn't four-putt the 18th on Sunday 😉 

 

At par 72, the cut was +4. At par 72, the players who tied for 10th place finished E over all four rounds.

 

If par were 68, only 4 winners since 2000 would be even par or better for the entire 72 holes. https://www.golflink.com/list_5175_list-winners-masters-golf-tournament.html

 

Seems like Augusta is defending par just fine. 

Augusta is a tough course... I think a 6+ winning score is fine. However, that doesn't look so good against the guys hitting persimmon and balata 50 years ago and still shooting better than -10. Yes I know that they have increased the length but its only 600 yards since the mid-1960s.

[Krt22]

21 minutes ago, mahonie said:

Typically par is determined by distance, we have a couple of par 5s at my home course that are just under 500 yards but in reality they are just long par 4s. We have a par 5 that is 565 yards that is reachable in 2 because there is a chute in front of the green that throws a really good shot forward. Par should be determined on the likelihood of the average golfer hitting the green in a specific number of shots which as I've said elsewhere would mean most courses would be par 66/67.

Rating to par is irrelevant, its how many strokes it takes to hole out, which is why bryson's comments were completely asinine.  Making 4 on a 500+ yard par 5 still requires you to execute 2 or 3 really good shots, which even Bryson fails to do all the time. Golf is played on the course, not a launch monitor with theorhetical distances. For every par 5 that averages 4.XX here is a par 4 that averages not much less. When we have a PGA tour par 5 that averages a FULL shot under par (ie the whole fields average), then we can talk about changing the par rating.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Krt22

[mahonie]

10 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Rating to par is irrelevant, its how many strokes it takes to hole out, which is why bryson's comments were completely asinine.  Making 4 on a 500+ yard par 5 still requires you to execute 2 or 3 really good shots, which even Bryson fails to do all the time. Golf is played on the course, not a launch monitor with theorhetical distances. For every par 5 that averages 4.XX here is a par 4 that averages not much less. When we have a PGA tour par 5 that averages a FULL shot under par (ie the whole fields average), then we can talk about changing the par rating.

That would be a good starting point... I'm guessing there would be more than anticipated 

[Nard_S]

10 hours ago, trilerian said:

it's a short range.

245 yards with a 100 foot net is not short. It's knuckleheads swinging out of their shoes, pulling & pushing left & right (to the hazard of go;fers on the course) but then proceed to hit their super duper GI #8i like a fat Sally.

 

When seniors are driving par 4's yet cannot stop an #8i on a par 3 ( yes, I've witnessed this), all of which largely a function of the technology and NOT talent the game is screwed.

 

The game has jumped the shark and the tech is the ramp.

 

It's more a skill to drive persimmon 275 than it is to drive big Ti 325. Fact.

[So_Cal]

330 drive by Avery in the women’s am 👍🏻👍🏻

[trilerian]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

245 yards with a 100 foot net is not short. It's knuckleheads swinging out of their shoes, pulling & pushing left & right (to the hazard of go;fers on the course) but then proceed to hit their super duper GI #8i like a fat Sally.

 

When seniors are driving par 4's yet cannot stop an #8i on a par 3 ( yes, I've witnessed this), all of which largely a function of the technology and NOT talent the game is screwed.

 

The game has jumped the shark and the tech is the ramp.

 

It's more a skill to drive persimmon 275 than it is to drive big Ti 325. Fact.

If you think the game is screwed then just quit. 
 

Me, I love golf. It’s my zen place. And how Jon Doe the weekend hacker plays the game has no bearing on my enjoyment. 
 

You sound like you let a lot of stuff that doesn’t really matter affect you. Go play persimmons and blades with hickory sticks. If that is what floats your boat, have at it and don’t let anyone tell you their way is better. Just remember, it’s a two way street.

 

 

[clevited]

2 hours ago, Nard_S said:

245 yards with a 100 foot net is not short. It's knuckleheads swinging out of their shoes, pulling & pushing left & right (to the hazard of go;fers on the course) but then proceed to hit their super duper GI #8i like a fat Sally.

 

When seniors are driving par 4's yet cannot stop an #8i on a par 3 ( yes, I've witnessed this), all of which largely a function of the technology and NOT talent the game is screwed.

 

The game has jumped the shark and the tech is the ramp.

 

It's more a skill to drive persimmon 275 than it is to drive big Ti 325. Fact.

 

You related to a certain chicken, last name Little? 

[clevited]

56 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

330 drive by Avery in the women’s am 👍🏻👍🏻

 

What were the circumstances and so what, good for her.  

[So_Cal]

16 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

What were the circumstances and so what, good for her.  

Uphill tee shot, #13.  Short iron into par 5.  Not going to spend time arguing.  Just saying shot values are shot with modern tech 

[Double Mocha Man]

27 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

What were the circumstances and so what, good for her.  

And it turns out she was typically out- driving her opponent by 60 yards. But she lost the match.

[clevited]

11 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

Uphill tee shot, #13.  Short iron into par 5.  Not going to spend time arguing.  Just saying shot values are shot with modern tech 

 

How uphill, what was the wind direction and speed? You and Nard should get together to yell at the clouds sometime. 

[So_Cal]

4 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

How uphill, what was the wind direction and speed? You and Nard should get together to yell at the clouds sometime. 

Lol.  Maybe we should.  I don’t have the energy to engage much with the distance deniers.  They seem to be retired and well funded.  

[So_Cal]

7 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

And it turns out she was typically out- driving her opponent by 60 yards. But she lost the match.

She is a world class player and hit a small headed wood off the last tee under pressure.  Something that detractors of MilesGiles say is no problem.  Well it proved more difficult than the large headed club, which she hadn’t missed all day.  Banana in the bunker.  Bogey.  Loss.  Miles won that argument yesterday. 
 

Miles 1

Distance Deniers 0

[clevited]

30 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

She is a world class player and hit a small headed wood off the last tee under pressure.  Something that detractors of MilesGiles say is no problem.  Well it proved more difficult than the large headed club, which she hadn’t missed all day.  Banana in the bunker.  Bogey.  Loss.  Miles won that argument yesterday. 
 

Miles 1

Distance Deniers 0

 

Until you realize she probably would have done the same with driver.  Was likely a face closure issue rather than strike.  Nerves can't be fixed by a 460 club head, a bad swing is a bad swing and that same swing would likely have been much worse with a driver. 

 

Edit:  Then you also have to ask, why did she use a fairway wood (I am guessing) if it is so much harder to hit?  Could it be driver wasn't the play and or she was more confident in the supposedly harder to hit fairway wood?  You logic isn't so logical I don't think.  

Edited August 12, 2022 by clevited

[smashdn]

9 hours ago, trilerian said:

If you think the game is screwed then just quit. 
 

Me, I love golf. It’s my zen place. And how Jon Doe the weekend hacker plays the game has no bearing on my enjoyment. 
 

You sound like you let a lot of stuff that doesn’t really matter affect you. Go play persimmons and blades with hickory sticks. If that is what floats your boat, have at it and don’t let anyone tell you their way is better. Just remember, it’s a two way street.

 

 

 

Do you not play public courses?  Never had to wait for guys to get out of your fairway while they are playing an adjacent hole?  I have been the beneficiary and the cause before.

 

That's the downside to hitting it a long way.  If it goes wayward it has the potential to go way offline.