distance debate

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

USGA just announce some future US OPEN sites.......Pebble Beach will host  2027 and 2044. 

Pebble Beach is 7000 yards......Now do that sound like the USGA is worried about the distance debate or needing 8000 yard golf courses. I think not....PB is one of the smallest professional courses. Yet they still manage to have major events there......go figure.

 

Is this the same usga that you all constantly deride as imbeciles?

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

USGA just announce some future US OPEN sites.......Pebble Beach will host  2027 and 2044. 

Pebble Beach is 7000 yards......Now do that sound like the USGA is worried about the distance debate or needing 8000 yard golf courses. I think not....PB is one of the smallest professional courses. Yet they still manage to have major events there......go figure.

 

Cool.

In 2019 it played 7075 yards par 71.  (In round four it was set up at 7104 yards though.) (Winning score 271.)

In 2010 it played 7040 yards par 71. (Winning score was 284.)

In 2000 it played 6846 yards par 71.  (No 2 was a par five before this year.)  (Winning score 272.)

In 1992 it played 6809 yards par 72.  (Winning score 285.)

 

They only added 266 yards to the course from '92 to 2019.  (Also grow the rough to 5" for the US Open.)

[Titleist99]

20 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Is this the same usga that you all constantly deride as imbeciles?

No, the USGA hasn't posted enough on this board for me to form an opinion on them, but some other here have proved themselves to be imbecilic.........

[Titleist99]

24 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Cool.

In 2019 it played 7075 yards par 71.  (In round four it was set up at 7104 yards though.) (Winning score 271.)

In 2010 it played 7040 yards par 71. (Winning score was 284.)

In 2000 it played 6846 yards par 71.  (No 2 was a par five before this year.)  (Winning score 272.)

In 1992 it played 6809 yards par 72.  (Winning score 285.)

 

They only added 266 yards to the course from '92 to 2019.  (Also grow the rough to 5" for the US Open.)

Based on that rate they only need to lengthen Pebble Beach 200 yards by 2047......Golf has never been more popular, and distance is not a problem...and that's the shortest course on tour.

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

Based on that rate they only need to lengthen Pebble Beach 200 yards by 2047......Golf has never been more popular, and distance is not a problem...and that's the shortest course on tour.

 

PB is the most iconic and recognisable us open venue by far. It will always be played there just as St Andrews will always host the Open(even though it has had to take over parts of a different course entirely).

 

Its nothing to do with its merits, or otherwise, as a golf course 

[oikos1]

8 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

they swing far harder than they ever could with a persimmon

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

You don’t have to listen to me, plenty of major winners from before the toaster era say the same thing.. that it is far too easy to hit and removes too much skill from the game

 

find me the post where I advocated hickory. Or just quit making up rubbish 

 

Miles, if the above post isn't advocating for hickory, or specifically persimmon, than you are just blathering at this point.  Why would it even matter how hard a player swings now if you weren't advocating for persimmon or some other iteration of persimmon.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by oikos1

[milesgiles]

23 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

 

Miles, if the above post isn't advocating for hickory, or specifically persimmon, than you are just blathering at this point.  Why would it even matter how hard a player swings now if you weren't advocating for persimmon or some other iteration of persimmon.

 

 

 

persimmon heads had steel shafts since the 40s. Nothing to do with hickory. You are confused

[oikos1]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

persimmon heads had steel shafts since the 40s. Nothing to do with hickory. You are confused

Not at all.  In fact, you are the one that can't seem to define what "era" golf should go back to.  Been asked numerous times.

[milesgiles]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

Not at all.  In fact, you are the one that can't seem to define what "era" golf should go back to.  Been asked numerous times.

 

2 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Not at all.  In fact, you are the one that can't seem to define what "era" golf should go back to.  Been asked numerous times.

 

persimmon is not a type of hickory. Is it so hard to just admit you are wrong? 

[oikos1]

23 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

persimmon is not a type of hickory. Is it so hard to just admit you are wrong? 

I figured it would go over your head.  You claim that things need to be rolled back and reference persimmon, something long gone from the game, and it just doesn't hold water as the next person would just say roll it back more.  You make the claim that today's pros wouldn't be able to swing as hard with persimmon, yet the same claim can be made for hickory shafts vs steel or fiberglass, whether actually true or not as it's not even provable.  You're stuck in the past.

 

You also claim that there isn't a 6500 yard course that can contain the younger players in your area, but then say you only want the roll back for the pros. 

 

You're all over the place and continually fail to provide any proof as to why distance today is bad for the game. All that's left to believe is you are just upset that some can hit the ball further than you ever have.

[milesgiles]

8 hours ago, oikos1 said:

I figured it would go over your head.  You claim that things need to be rolled back and reference persimmon, something long gone from the game, and it just doesn't hold water as the next person would just say roll it back more.  You make the claim that today's pros wouldn't be able to swing as hard with persimmon, yet the same claim can be made for hickory shafts vs steel or fiberglass, whether actually true or not as it's not even provable.  You're stuck in the past.

 

You also claim that there isn't a 6500 yard course that can contain the younger players in your area, but then say you only want the roll back for the pros. 

 

You're all over the place and continually fail to provide any proof as to why distance today is bad for the game. All that's left to believe is you are just upset that some can hit the ball further than you ever have.

 

1. Not one person has suggested rolling back to hickory (you know this)

2. we have ALL said roll back to a traditional size driver head (you also know this)

3. I suggested several times this would apply to pro's and amateurs in gross compettions (you probably couldnt be bothered to read that)

4. the benefits of oversize drivers are beyond any reasonable dispute, proven anecdotally and statistically, endlessly.. but then if you REALLY think there is no advantage.. lets just get rid of them (you will ignore this)

[clevited]

3 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

1. Not one person has suggested rolling back to hickory (you know this)

2. we have ALL said roll back to a traditional size driver head (you also know this)

3. I suggested several times this would apply to pro's and amateurs in gross compettions (you probably couldnt be bothered to read that)

4. the benefits of oversize drivers are beyond any reasonable dispute, proven anecdotally and statistically, endlessly.. but then if you REALLY think there is no advantage.. lets just get rid of them (you will ignore this)

 

Miles this is for your sake and others.  Do you ever read your posts?  The combative nature of many of your posts will get this thread locked, and can very possibly get you booted or shadow banned.  I have seen it happen.  We all get a chip on our shoulder from time to time but you seem to have one constantly.  I might suggest you and others (including myself at times) stop the combative language and stick to the discussion at hand.  I like these threads because I think it gives people curious about the subject a potential place to see arguments from both sides.  Again, I understand the passion and the chip on the shoulder one can have over this particular subject but you really do come off as just a bitter old man in your posts.  You don't come off as someone that is interested in mutual respectful dialogue in any way shape or form.  Its as if you get off on trying to push people's buttons.

 

Please get off your high horse and realize you have a very unpopular opinion.  If you accept that, and realize you are inevitably always going to have more people that disagree with you than agree with you in these threads, you can calm down and act more normal (assuming you have the ability to).  I have not seen anyone so combative, disrespectful, bitter, and illogical as yourself since 15th, and he was banned for his behavior.  

 

I am trying to help you as much as help keep this thread from being locked.  While 15th was an infuriating person, he did have some good thoughts at times.  He would have been your buddy in these threads and would post as much or more than you or I or anyone else to "fight the good fight" I am sure.

[Titleist99]

19 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Miles this is for your sake and others.  Do you ever read your posts?  The combative nature of many of your posts will get this thread locked, and can very possibly get you booted or shadow banned.  I have seen it happen.  We all get a chip on our shoulder from time to time but you seem to have one constantly.  I might suggest you and others (including myself at times) stop the combative language and stick to the discussion at hand.  I like these threads because I think it gives people curious about the subject a potential place to see arguments from both sides.  Again, I understand the passion and the chip on the shoulder one can have over this particular subject but you really do come off as just a bitter old man in your posts.  You don't come off as someone that is interested in mutual respectful dialogue in any way shape or form.  Its as if you get off on trying to push people's buttons.

 

Please get off your high horse and realize you have a very unpopular opinion.  If you accept that, and realize you are inevitably always going to have more people that disagree with you than agree with you in these threads, you can calm down and act more normal (assuming you have the ability to).  I have not seen anyone so combative, disrespectful, bitter, and illogical as yourself since 15th, and he was banned for his behavior.  

 

I am trying to help you as much as help keep this thread from being locked.  While 15th was an infuriating person, he did have some good thoughts at times.  He would have been your buddy in these threads and would post as much or more than you or I or anyone else to "fight the good fight" I am sure.

Well said, but I find that when the facts aren't on a posters side they commonly resort to name calling, obnoxiousness and spell checking......

 

Not saying that's the case here but it seems alarmingly close.

 

Let's hope the rollback crowd bring more facts and less opinion.....

[milesgiles]

43 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Miles this is for your sake and others.  Do you ever read your posts?  The combative nature of many of your posts will get this thread locked, and can very possibly get you booted or shadow banned.  I have seen it happen.  We all get a chip on our shoulder from time to time but you seem to have one constantly.  I might suggest you and others (including myself at times) stop the combative language and stick to the discussion at hand.  I like these threads because I think it gives people curious about the subject a potential place to see arguments from both sides.  Again, I understand the passion and the chip on the shoulder one can have over this particular subject but you really do come off as just a bitter old man in your posts.  You don't come off as someone that is interested in mutual respectful dialogue in any way shape or form.  Its as if you get off on trying to push people's buttons.

 

Please get off your high horse and realize you have a very unpopular opinion.  If you accept that, and realize you are inevitably always going to have more people that disagree with you than agree with you in these threads, you can calm down and act more normal (assuming you have the ability to).  I have not seen anyone so combative, disrespectful, bitter, and illogical as yourself since 15th, and he was banned for his behavior.  

 

I am trying to help you as much as help keep this thread from being locked.  While 15th was an infuriating person, he did have some good thoughts at times.  He would have been your buddy in these threads and would post as much or more than you or I or anyone else to "fight the good fight" I am sure.

 

can only suggest not attributing quotes to me which Ive never said.  ,

[clevited]

7 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Well said, but I find that when the facts aren't on a posters side they commonly resort to name calling, obnoxiousness and spell checking......

 

Not saying that's the case here but it seems alarmingly close.

 

Let's hope the rollback crowd bring more facts and less opinion.....

 

Also can happen when a person feels like they are being ganged up on, or being treated unfairly.  Its easy to get a chip on your shoulder and feel rightious in your replies and attitude in those replies.  In reality,it doesn't help a person's cause I don't think.  I speak from experience.  Been on the side of unpopular opinion plenty of times and it is easy to get combative with people and just make your viewpoint look weaker and weaker.

[smashdn]

17 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Based on that rate they only need to lengthen Pebble Beach 200 yards by 2047......Golf has never been more popular, and distance is not a problem...and that's the shortest course on tour.

 

Thought someone said along the way 6800 yard courses were perfectly suited to holding events?

 

Illicit drugs are pretty popular too. Alcohol too.  Letting either get out of control is not well thought of however. 

 

To the USGA and the R&A distance is a problem.  They are on the record as such.  That, unlike what you have stated regarding distance, is factual and citable.

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Let's hope the rollback crowd bring more facts and less opinion.....

 

Touche'

[Titleist99]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

Thought someone said along the way 6800 yard courses were perfectly suited to holding events?

 

Illicit drugs are pretty popular too. Alcohol too.  Letting either get out of control is not well thought of however. 

 

To the USGA and the R&A distance is a problem.  They are on the record as such.  That, unlike what you have stated regarding distance, is factual and citable.

I'm pretty certain that they said distance was a concern......

[Titleist99]

36 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Thought someone said along the way 6800 yard courses were perfectly suited to holding events?

 

Illicit drugs are pretty popular too. Alcohol too.  Letting either get out of control is not well thought of however. 

 

To the USGA and the R&A distance is a problem.  They are on the record as such.  That, unlike what you have stated regarding distance, is factual and citable.

"Thought someone said along the way 6800 yard courses were perfectly suited to holding events?"

 

I said that......If we adhere to the object of the game, which is ......that everyone in the tournament plays the same course and the lowest score wins .....and a trophy is handed out at the end.

 

6800 yards is as good as any. 

We must not forget that golf tournaments are competitions.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Titleist99

[Titleist99]

42 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Thought someone said along the way 6800 yard courses were perfectly suited to holding events?

 

Illicit drugs are pretty popular too. Alcohol too.  Letting either get out of control is not well thought of however. 

 

To the USGA and the R&A distance is a problem.  They are on the record as such.  That, unlike what you have stated regarding distance, is factual and citable.

"Illicit drugs are pretty popular too. Alcohol too.  Letting either get out of control is not well thought of however. "

 

LOL!.......Now we're comparing distance to the above problems in this country.....My Goodness, the roll backers knows no bounds.  

[clevited]

The position people spout that kills me the most I think, is this one that says a course needs to provide a true "test of golf".  You first have to answer, "What is golf?" I think.

 

Golf, as I found it defined (and this isn't necessarily the WORD when it comes to the definition of golf, it is just a single definition)

 

Note how it doesn't say that golf is a game requiring use of all clubs including shaping the ball around tight bends and feathering a 4 iron onto a green at St. Andrews.  It says basically, get the ball in the hole using golf clubs.  Golf is a game where you are simply required to get the ball in the hole using the legal tools of the game.  There is nothing required about how one has to go about doing it.  In fact, because golf is played by people of all different sizes and abilities, you cannot ever provide what I think people believe to be a true "test of golf".  One person, given their skills and abilities might have a much harder time on a certain type of course than another with different skills and abilities.  This has kind of been how it has always been.  If the tour mixed in really tight short courses, almost nobody has a length advantage to an appreciable degree.  If the tour used all really long courses, or long and wide open courses, then length has a greater advantage.  The "test of golf" is adaptation to a course, exploitation of a course, mental strength, playing to your strengths, and planning the best attack of the course that you can given your tool set.  For these reasons alone, I feel the whole distance debate is absolutely moot.  For those that choose to define golf with more qualifiers as I eluded to above, then the distance debate is of the utmost importance.  

 

I just see the whole argument against distance as a cry for nostalgia and nothing more once you boil it down.  There is no golf course that "cannot be played" or "doesn't fit" a given golfer.  It may be they have the tools to exploit the course more and have higher potential to score lower than your average joe by a lot, but that doesn't make golf broken.  It just means the gap between an average golfer and the elite golfer is HUGE and I think that is how it should be.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by clevited

[Nard_S]

Yet it's the "distance is king" guys who were whining that #15 at Augusta was now too long because of the added 20 yards.  Good grief.

[ChipStrokes]

34 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Yet it's the "distance is king" guys who were whining that #15 at Augusta was now too long because of the added 20 yards.  Good grief.

no…

 

it was the same guys crying about wanting things to be the way they’ve always been. 

 

they always invoke bobby jones or some other long dead or long retired golfer as justification for why a hole or a course should be a certain way. 

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, ChipStrokes said:

it was the same guys crying about wanting things to be the way they’ve always been

Look back at the comments, most so-called "modernists", were  biggest Karen's about #15 changes this year. If a PGA player now has more than #7i in hand for 2nd shot to a par 5, the belly aching has no bounds.When you add 500 yards of capability solely based on technology and nothing else, you've pretty much forfeited your right to whine, just saying.

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

Look back at the comments, most so-called "modernists", were  biggest Karen's about #15 changes this year. If a PGA player now has more than #7i in hand for 2nd shot to a par 5, the belly aching has no bounds.When you add 500 yards of capability solely based on technology and nothing else, you've pretty much forfeited your right to whine, just saying.

to be fair, i didn’t pay much attention to what was being said on the boards. i was serving a two week timeout during masters week. 

 

but count me out of that particular complaint. watching tiger throw darts from 210 with 4 and 5 irons was the best part of masters week for me. he hit 3 or 4 of them that i can remember. just awesome to see. 

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

51 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Yet it's the "distance is king" guys who were whining that #15 at Augusta was now too long because of the added 20 yards.  Good grief.

That's pathetic and weak.  I thought 13 and 15 played great at the Masters.

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That's pathetic and weak.  I thought 13 and 15 played great at the Masters.

I thought the setup was one of best in many years. The greens were great in their difficulty too. Scottie was asked why he went for it in two on Sunday (#15 from behind tree line). He was like "it's a five iron, come on".

 

 

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

"Thought someone said along the way 6800 yard courses were perfectly suited to holding events?"

 

I said that......If we adhere to the object of the game, which is ......that everyone in the tournament plays the same course and the lowest score wins .....and a trophy is handed out at the end.

 

6800 yards is as good as any. 

We must not forget that golf tournaments are competitions.

 

Just have in on the local muni then 

[milesgiles]

21 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

to be fair, i didn’t pay much attention to what was being said on the boards. i was serving a two week timeout during masters week. 

 

but count me out of that particular complaint. watching tiger throw darts from 210 with 4 and 5 irons was the best part of masters week for me. he hit 3 or 4 of them that i can remember. just awesome to see. 

 

 

 

Yet you don’t want to see the best hit 4 and 5 irons from further out? Wow 

[milesgiles]

32 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

no…

 

it was the same guys crying about wanting things to be the way they’ve always been. 

 

they always invoke bobby jones or some other long dead or long retired golfer as justification for why a hole or a course should be a certain way. 

 

People quote Bobby Jones now for a reason 

 

you think theyll be quoting you in a hundred years?