Golf ruling- need clarification

[Manny2288]

You tee off and hit your drive into the rough.

You set up for your next shot and take a practice swing and accidentally hit your golf ball 20 feet forward.

Once your ball is in play, is it accurate to state that any attempt to hit the ball, practice or not, constitutes a stroke?

Are you allowed to replace the ball where you were and hit it again without penalty?

 

‘I am under the impression that if you replace it, an extra stroke must be added.

‘The only time you are allowed to replace the ball is accidentally hitting it on the tee or when marking on the green.

please clarify.

‘Thanks.

[Mr. Bean]

As you were not trying to make a stroke at your ball it is not a stroke. But as your  ball was in play you get a penalty of one stroke for moving your ball in play and you need to replace your ball.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

43 minutes ago, Manny2288 said:

You tee off and hit your drive into the rough.

You set up for your next shot and take a practice swing and accidentally hit your golf ball 20 feet forward.

Once your ball is in play, is it accurate to state that any attempt to hit the ball, practice or not, constitutes a stroke?

Are you allowed to replace the ball where you were and hit it again without penalty?

 

‘I am under the impression that if you replace it, an extra stroke must be added.

‘The only time you are allowed to replace the ball is accidentally hitting it on the tee or when marking on the green.

please clarify.

‘Thanks.

 

To flesh it out a bit.

 

1) "you take a practice swing" - practice swing is not a stroke.

 

2) "Once your ball is in play" - your ball was already in play. And you moved it - 1 stroke penalty.

 

3) "Are you allowed to replace the ball where you were and hit it again without penalty?"

 

You are required to replace your ball. Since you moved a ball in play, add 1 penalty stroke, replace it and then play on.

 

If you don't replace the ball and continue onward without correcting your error you are disqualified.

[limegreengent]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

To flesh it out a bit.

 

3) "Are you allowed to replace the ball where you were and hit it again without penalty?"

 

You are required to replace your ball. Since you moved a ball in play, add 1 penalty stroke, replace it and then play on.

"

If you don't replace the ball and continue onward without correcting your error you are disqualified."

 

 

"If you don't replace the ball and continue onward without correcting your error you are disqualified."

 

 

 

Oh my God -

How did you arrive at this?🤔🤔

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by limegreengent

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

If you don't replace the ball and continue onward without correcting your error you are disqualified.

 

That depends on whether playing from a wrong place would be a serious breach or not, and based on the description by the OP that would not be a serious breach and the penalty would be a general penalty as per Rule 14.7a.

[davep043]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

If you don't replace the ball and continue onward without correcting your error you are disqualified.

Playing a Wrong Ball is a "must correct" situation.  Playing from a Wrong Place is a General Penalty, with the potential for DQ if it is considered a Serious Breach, as @Mr. Bean says.  Check out 14.7b to see how to proceed once you realize you've played from a Wrong Place.

[Colin L]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

If you don't replace the ball and continue onward without correcting your error you are disqualified.

 

Perhaps you were getting confused with playing  a wrong ball.

[nsxguy]

On 4/7/2022 at 4:54 AM, limegreengent said:

"If you don't replace the ball and continue onward without correcting your error you are disqualified."

 

Oh my God -

How did you arrive at this?🤔🤔

 

 

From here (14.7).

 

b. How to Complete a Hole after Playing from Wrong Place in Stroke Play

 

(1) Player Must Decide Whether to Play Out Hole with Ball Played from Wrong Place or to Correct the Mistake by Playing from Right Place. What a player does next depends on whether it was a serious breach – that is, whether the player could have gained a significant advantage by playing from a wrong place:

 

Not a Serious Breach. The player must play out the hole with the ball played from a wrong place, without correcting the mistake.

 

Serious Breach.

The player must correct the mistake by playing out the hole with a ball played from a right place under the Rules.

 

If the player does not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or, for the final hole of the round, before returning his or her scorecard, the player is disqualified.

 

 

Since @Mr. Bean clarified that "20 feet" would not be considered a serious breach I can accept that.

 

Thank you Mr B. 👍

Edited April 9, 2022 by nsxguy

[Colin L]

8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Since @Mr. Bean clarified that "20 feet" would not be considered a serious breach I can accept that.

 

Thank you Mr B. 👍

20 feet in the situation described, yes but 20 feet nearer the hole on the putting green would be a different matter.  It's all very case specific. 

[Manny2288]

Thank you all for clarifying this as I thought there would be a 1 stroke penalty for moving a ball while in play.

I will assume the same applies on the green. I had another situation where a player was on the green, picked up his mark and was over the ball and struck it, moving it about 6” and then proceeded to put it back and replay the shot. He also said it was by accident but I explained that he had indeed moved his ball and would incur a 1 shot penalty.

[KevCarter]

6 minutes ago, Manny2288 said:

Thank you all for clarifying this as I thought there would be a 1 stroke penalty for moving a ball while in play.

I will assume the same applies on the green. I had another situation where a player was on the green, picked up his mark and was over the ball and struck it, moving it about 6” and then proceeded to put it back and replay the shot. He also said it was by accident but I explained that he had indeed moved his ball and would incur a 1 shot penalty.

 

Please see Rule 13-1

d. When Ball or Ball-Marker Moves on Putting Green

There are two specific Rules for a ball or ball-marker that moves on the putting green.

(1) No Penalty for Accidentally Causing Ball to Move. There is no penalty if the player, opponent or another player in stroke play accidentally moves the player’s ball or ball-marker on the putting green.

The player must:

• Replace the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2), or

• Place a ball-marker to mark that original spot.

Exception – Ball Must Be Played as It Lies When Ball Begins to Move During Backswing or Stroke and Stroke Is Made (see Rule 9.1b).

If the player or opponent deliberately lifts the player’s ball or ball-marker on the putting green, see Rule 9.4 or 9.5 to find out if there is a penalty.

[Augster]

2 hours ago, Manny2288 said:

Thank you all for clarifying this as I thought there would be a 1 stroke penalty for moving a ball while in play.

I will assume the same applies on the green. I had another situation where a player was on the green, picked up his mark and was over the ball and struck it, moving it about 6” and then proceeded to put it back and replay the shot. He also said it was by accident but I explained that he had indeed moved his ball and would incur a 1 shot penalty.

Not on the putting green. 
 

If a ball is accidentally moved by the player on the putting green, replace without penalty. 

[Mr. Bean]

17 hours ago, Colin L said:

20 feet in the situation described, yes but 20 feet nearer the hole on the putting green would be a different matter.  It's all very case specific. 

 

Indeed, and 20 feet in the rough could also be a SB if the original place was behind (or even under) a big bush with no line towards the green and the 'new' place would give that line.

[2bGood]

Great discussion guys. This is was a bad and great question asked but he OP.

 

Bad in that the rules are very clear on how this all works, great in that despite the rules being very clear it super common area that golfers get mixed up on. 

 

I think the mix up in this area are amplified given the teeing area and putting green rules are different than than the area of the course.

[Jeffro808]

Great question.  

Since you already teed off the ball is considered "in play".  In your practice swing you moved the ball, you haven't made a stroke but do get a 1 stroke penalty and you have to move the ball back to the original spot.  

If you do not move the ball back to the original spot and instead play it from the new spot, it now becomes a 2 stroke penalty.  

[Mr. Bean]

23 minutes ago, Jeffro808 said:

Great question.  

Since you already teed off the ball is considered "in play".  In your practice swing you moved the ball, you haven't made a stroke but do get a 1 stroke penalty and you have to move the ball back to the original spot.  

If you do not move the ball back to the original spot and instead play it from the new spot, it now becomes a 2 stroke penalty.  

 

Thank you, Jeffro, that is exactly what has been said in this thread before but I am glad you agree 👍

[Newby]

On 4/7/2022 at 2:16 AM, Manny2288 said:

You tee off and hit your drive into the rough.

You set up for your next shot and take a practice swing and accidentally hit your golf ball 20 feet forward.

Once your ball is in play, is it accurate to state that any attempt to hit the ball, practice or not, constitutes a stroke?

 

 

 

It is probably worth noting the definition of a Stroke.

 

Stroke

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

• Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke.

 

I preferred the previous version.

"a stroke is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball."  

 

[Augster]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

It is probably worth noting the definition of a Stroke.

 

Stroke

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

• Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke.

 

I preferred the previous version.

"a stroke is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball."  

 

I did also. But Kevin Na ruined that. 
 

Also anger strokes didn’t fit the definition either. Still don’t. It’s a horrible miscarriage of the definition of stroke, anger strokes are. 

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

......Also anger strokes didn’t fit the definition either. Still don’t. It’s a horrible miscarriage of the definition of stroke, anger strokes are. 

I'm not sure what you mean. 

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

I did also. But Kevin Na ruined that. 

 

When and how?

[Augster]

17 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

When and how?

When he had his driver yips and was swinging over the ball.
 

With the old definition, posted by Newby, If he decided to  intentionally miss when his club was at the top, great. But if he decided to intentionally miss the ball anywhere after that club changed direction, it was a stroke. 
 

With the new definition this is addressed. A player can decide to intentionally miss at any time and it won’t be a stroke if they miss the ball. 

[Augster]

18 hours ago, Colin L said:

I'm not sure what you mean. 

Anger strokes. 
 

Stroke play. Player leaves a putt short. Walks up and smashes it off the green. 
 

He intentionally hit it off the green. Completely fulfills definition of stroke. No stroke. 
 

In the old rules, there was 18-2a/23. 
 

18-2a/23
Ball Knocked from Lip of Hole in Disgust

Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball stops on the lip of the hole. In disgust the competitor knocks his ball off the green with the back of his putter. What is the ruling?

A.The competitor must replace the ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 18-2a). The competitor is not considered to have made a stroke.

 

 

Did this become something in the new rules? I certainly can’t find it. Searching for “disgust” and “anger” doesn’t bring up anything. 
 

Anyway, we went around about it in 2014. 
 

 

 

I don’t think anything has changed. Player takes 1SP for a moved ball and the “stroke” is cancelled because it’s not a “stroke”. Which I still contend is stupid. 

When is a stroke not a stroke? When you’re angry. 

 

 

[antip]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

Anger strokes. 
 

Stroke play. Player leaves a putt short. Walks up and smashes it off the green. 
 

He intentionally hit it off the green. Completely fulfills definition of stroke. No stroke. 
 

In the old rules, there was 18-2a/23. 
 

18-2a/23
Ball Knocked from Lip of Hole in Disgust

Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball stops on the lip of the hole. In disgust the competitor knocks his ball off the green with the back of his putter. What is the ruling?

A.The competitor must replace the ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 18-2a). The competitor is not considered to have made a stroke.

 

 

Did this become something in the new rules? I certainly can’t find it. Searching for “disgust” and “anger” doesn’t bring up anything. 
 

Anyway, we went around about it in 2014. 
 

 

 

I don’t think anything has changed. Player takes 1SP for a moved ball and the “stroke” is cancelled because it’s not a “stroke”. Which I still contend is stupid. 

When is a stroke not a stroke? When you’re angry. 

 

 

Nothing has changed, even though the old Decision has been dropped (as were many others). It's not the only category of "non-stroke" not identified in the definition of "stroke". Another one is striking the ball with an implement that is not in any way a club (conforming or otherwise).

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

When he had his driver yips and was swinging over the ball.
 

With the old definition, posted by Newby, If he decided to  intentionally miss when his club was at the top, great. But if he decided to intentionally miss the ball anywhere after that club changed direction, it was a stroke. 
 

With the new definition this is addressed. A player can decide to intentionally miss at any time and it won’t be a stroke if they miss the ball. 

 

Tiger did that once and it was not ruled as a stroke. Must have been 10+ years ago.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I don’t think anything has changed. Player takes 1SP for a moved ball and the “stroke” is cancelled because it’s not a “stroke”. Which I still contend is stupid. 

When is a stroke not a stroke? When you’re angry. 

 

It's all about intent.

 

This is why it pays off to linger on this forum 😉

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

Anger strokes. 
 

Stroke play. Player leaves a putt short. Walks up and smashes it off the green. 
 

He intentionally hit it off the green. Completely fulfills definition of stroke. No stroke.........

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.  You'll understand from Antic's explanation why I didn't quite get why you meant!  

 

Now you don't need to be angry about anger strokes not being strokes.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Colin L

[antip]

21 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Thanks for the clarification.  You'll understand from Antic's explanation why I didn't quite get why you meant!  

 

Now you don't need to be angry about anger strokes not being strokes.

Freudian slip Colin?

[Augster]

23 hours ago, antip said:

Nothing has changed, even though the old Decision has been dropped (as were many others). It's not the only category of "non-stroke" not identified in the definition of "stroke". Another one is striking the ball with an implement that is not in any way a club (conforming or otherwise).

That is why it should be different. A putter is a conforming club. The player has the intent to strike the ball well off the green. He succeeds. Yet, it isn’t counted against him. 
 

What if he then goes and plays the ball? And who decides? What if it isn’t anger, he’s 2 feet above the hole and it misses and rolls down the hill,

off the green and into the fairway. Can he take “ball moves by player” and not count the stroke?

 

But a player, that is angry, and hits the 2 foot putt as hard as he can to try to “break the flagstick” and it misses and rolls off the green. Then he gets to take “ball moves by player” the stroke doesn’t count, and he’s lying 1 stroke better in the same spot as the player who wasn’t angry. 
 

It’s absurd. 

[antip]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

That is why it should be different. A putter is a conforming club. The player has the intent to strike the ball well off the green. He succeeds. Yet, it isn’t counted against him. 
 

What if he then goes and plays the ball? And who decides? What if it isn’t anger, he’s 2 feet above the hole and it misses and rolls down the hill,

off the green and into the fairway. Can he take “ball moves by player” and not count the stroke?

 

But a player, that is angry, and hits the 2 foot putt as hard as he can to try to “break the flagstick” and it misses and rolls off the green. Then he gets to take “ball moves by player” the stroke doesn’t count, and he’s lying 1 stroke better in the same spot as the player who wasn’t angry. 
 

It’s absurd. 

I'm really not seeing a concerning issue here. A non-stroke movement of the ball in play gets you one stroke penalty if you replace or two otherwise (and possibly serious breach). It makes no difference whether that movement is if you kick that ball away, pick it up and throw it somewhere or whack it with a club without the intent for it to be a stroke in completing the hole. And if you whack/throw it somewhere with a non-stroke then you could also be on the hook for unreasonable delay. Another risk is ball is not recoverable, so if it was at rest other than on the green, there's a substituted ball penalty.

The angry player actions are also on the hook for misconduct if the action causes risk to others.

[limegreengent]

1 hour ago, antip said:

1 hour ago, antip said:

. And if you whack/throw it somewhere with a non-stroke then you could also be on the hook for unreasonable delay. Another risk is ball is not recoverable, so if it was at rest other than on the green, there's a substituted ball penalty.

 

 

Antip

I do not follow why you are making a distinction between on or off the green.

(See highlighted section of your reply above)

Would not the " Sub ball ruling " ? be the same for each ?

Can you clarify ?

Thank you.

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by limegreengent