Should out of bounds rule be changed?

[Pepperturbo]

When I read thread topics like this, I shake my head, and say NO.  My 14 yr old niece plays in regional events and now good enough to play on the HS Boys golf team.  I've listened to her talk about all sorts of rules and HS education.  She says, we're dumbing down students and their expectations.  We've been seeing the lazy effects in the corporate world for some time now.

 

Change a rule to accommodate someone who did something wrong, and another person has to tell him/her they did something wrong and apply a penalty or consequence for not knowing.  One person gets a penalty, while the person telling that person, feels bad.  Let's offer a trophy for showing up to play and one for those having to apply penalties… grr.

 

We can't keep watering down the rules for people not willing to learn or apply themselves. 

 

The other day, I learned the actual meaning of a rule, that I had thought was different.  I have been playing by the rules all my life.  Fortunately, for me, not knowing the exact meaning of the rule hadn't cost me YET.  Now I know and will educate myself further on the RofG, so it won't cost me in the future.

 

People need to know most of the basic rules to play the game.  Not playing by the rules, a person isn't really playing the game of golf, just whacking the ball around on a course.  If we make a mistake, it's our fault.  Us golfers are NOT going to have a rule official nearby like the pros enjoy.  Therefore, we need a basic understanding, otherwise he/she is going to develop a bad taste in their mouths for adhering to the rules when they suddenly face rules, limitations, or boundaries. 

 

Sorry for the rant!

Edited September 27, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[karstens_ghost]

I might have a different take on this.

 

I've been on a Golf Committee responsible for this sort of stuff. There's always two competing factors; Health & Safety vs. Pace of Play.

 

On one hand, you need the ultimate penalty for shots hit off property. You need to protect people that live adjoining a course, or simply aren't expecting a ball to fall out of the sky near them. It can be very dangerous, and course insurance policies for property damages can get very expensive.

 

On the other hand, requiring players to go back to the tee can cause a ripple effect that can add 10+ minutes to half your field - particularly when stakes and boundaries are not in sight of the tee box, or you have patrons that are not going to see clearly at that distance. That sort of delay costs courses MONEY.

 

My somewhat unique stance on this is that while I like MLR E-5 because it's the only way at the moment to keep the field moving, it's also not penal enough. The most likely person to put a ball "into the houses" is going to be the player that *just* hit one in the houses. That's doubly-bad. In my perfect world, a ball hit OB under any condition should not be allowed the privilege of finishing that hole. That requires a terminal scenario, and in the US (where everyone seems to only play stroke like they're on the PGA) this becomes difficult.

 

If I had my way, any OB in Stableford is an immediate 0 points. In Match Play, it's an immediate loss of the hole. In Stroke, ideally there's a max score, and that's what you are assigned.

 

While there's hope in Stableford and Match, no one would accept this in Stroke. Thus, E-5 exists. Don't let someone hit another one out, and give them a good chance to not flail. It's also smart to mark OB only in instances of property boundaries and *actual hazards*. The rest should be penalty areas because OB literally means 'outside a boundary'.

 

As a sport, we need to be doing more to prevent injuries. I've been hit with a ball in-flight, and for all of us who have, we know it's not pleasant. And we also need to not watch *that guy* walking 250 yards back because he "had no idea there was a stake there".

 

The best I can come up with for stroke play is that a player only has the same rules as a penalty area for relief, with two strokes penalty. For a lost ball, E-5. Never walk back, eliminate the provisional ball.

 

 

[kiwigolf72]

2 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

I might have a different take on this.

 

I've been on a Golf Committee responsible for this sort of stuff. There's always two competing factors; Health & Safety vs. Pace of Play.

 

On one hand, you need the ultimate penalty for shots hit off property. You need to protect people that live adjoining a course, or simply aren't expecting a ball to fall out of the sky near them. It can be very dangerous, and course insurance policies for property damages can get very expensive.

 

On the other hand, requiring players to go back to the tee can cause a ripple effect that can add 10+ minutes to half your field - particularly when stakes and boundaries are not in sight of the tee box, or you have patrons that are not going to see clearly at that distance. That sort of delay costs courses MONEY.

 

My somewhat unique stance on this is that while I like MLR E-5 because it's the only way at the moment to keep the field moving, it's also not penal enough. The most likely person to put a ball "into the houses" is going to be the player that *just* hit one in the houses. That's doubly-bad. In my perfect world, a ball hit OB under any condition should not be allowed the privilege of finishing that hole. That requires a terminal scenario, and in the US (where everyone seems to only play stroke like they're on the PGA) this becomes difficult.

 

If I had my way, any OB in Stableford is an immediate 0 points. In Match Play, it's an immediate loss of the hole. In Stroke, ideally there's a max score, and that's what you are assigned.

 

While there's hope in Stableford and Match, no one would accept this in Stroke. Thus, E-5 exists. Don't let someone hit another one out, and give them a good chance to not flail. It's also smart to mark OB only in instances of property boundaries and *actual hazards*. The rest should be penalty areas because OB literally means 'outside a boundary'.

 

As a sport, we need to be doing more to prevent injuries. I've been hit with a ball in-flight, and for all of us who have, we know it's not pleasant. And we also need to not watch *that guy* walking 250 yards back because he "had no idea there was a stake there".

 

The best I can come up with for stroke play is that a player only has the same rules as a penalty area for relief, with two strokes penalty. For a lost ball, E-5. Never walk back, eliminate the provisional ball.

 

 

 I think hitting it OB is not the end of the world, I have had plenty of birdies with my second ball, making it a bogey.

[karstens_ghost]

45 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

 I think hitting it OB is not the end of the world, I have had plenty of birdies with my second ball, making it a bogey.

 

No biggie if you're playing Coringa or Harewood, but Waitikiri and Waimairi Beach, it's a big deal… that's why it's so hard. One OB is a house, another is a flood berm. One's an insurance or ACC claim, another is merely a step over a wire fence.

 

It feels like the rules don't adequately cover the situations. We've all had the birdie/bogie, but that's from the player perspective. Somehow we need to protect houses because ACC claims have closed one course in Auckland, and threaten more. I don't even pretend to know the right answer. Sometimes I think it's more about tee block placement, but with so much remediation being required it seems like there should be some differences between OB and Dangerous OB.

 

Not an easy puzzle, @kiwigolf72.

[kiwigolf72]

34 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

No biggie if you're playing Coringa or Harewood, but Waitikiri and Waimairi Beach, it's a big deal… that's why it's so hard. One OB is a house, another is a flood berm. One's an insurance or ACC claim, another is merely a step over a wire fence.

 

It feels like the rules don't adequately cover the situations. We've all had the birdie/bogie, but that's from the player perspective. Somehow we need to protect houses because ACC claims have closed one course in Auckland, and threaten more. I don't even pretend to know the right answer. Sometimes I think it's more about tee block placement, but with so much remediation being required it seems like there should be some differences between OB and Dangerous OB.

 

Not an easy puzzle, @kiwigolf72.

agree on the H&S and protecting neighbours' properties, just wouldn't want hitting it OB to punish the player by taking them out of a hole.

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

My somewhat unique stance on this is that while I like MLR E-5 because it's the only way at the moment to keep the field moving, it's also not penal enough. The most likely person to put a ball "into the houses" is going to be the player that *just* hit one in the houses. That's doubly-bad. In my perfect world, a ball hit OB under any condition should not be allowed the privilege of finishing that hole. That requires a terminal scenario, and in the US (where everyone seems to only play stroke like they're on the PGA) this becomes difficult.

 

 

I stated upthread my issue with MLR E-5 in that I don't think it's penal enough. Largely because it assumes your second ball would find the fairway, which is sorta belied by the fact that your first ball was so far off the planet as to be OB. Especially for higher-cap golfers like me.

 

I've resigned myself to play a provisional if I'm reasonably sure my first ball is OB. That likely hurts me from a scoring perspective (because ball 2 isn't exactly ensured to be in the fairway--I recently had a round where ball 1 was OOB left, and ball 2 was OOB right), but I think it more accurately respects the spirit of the rule. 

 

If I'm unsure whether a ball is OB, or if I think I am in bounds and determine when I get to the ball that it is OB (or if the ball is lost), then I'll take MLR E-5 rather than impact pace of play with S&D. 

 

But I don't like the idea that a ball that is obviously OB gives you a nice fairway lie instead of playing a provisional. 

[kiwigolf72]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I stated upthread my issue with in that I don't think it's penal enough. Largely because it assumes your second ball would find the fairway, which is sorta belied by the fact that your first ball was so far off the planet as to be OB. Especially for higher-cap golfers like me.

 

I've resigned myself to play a provisional if I'm reasonably sure my first ball is OB. That likely hurts me from a scoring perspective (because ball 2 isn't exactly ensured to be in the fairway--I recently had a round where ball 1 was OOB left, and ball 2 was OOB right), but I think it more accurately respects the spirit of the rule. 

 

If I'm unsure whether a ball is OB, or if I think I am in bounds and determine when I get to the ball that it is OB (or if the ball is lost), then I'll take MLR E-5 rather than impact pace of play with S&D. 

 

But I don't like the idea that a ball that is obviously OB gives you a nice fairway lie instead of playing a provisional. 

I understand about the pace of play and wanting to speed things up, but I agree dropping in the fairway does not seem right.

[karstens_ghost]

9 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I understand about the pace of play and wanting to speed things up, but I agree dropping in the fairway does not seem right.

Ya, I'm sort of in the thought of E-5 is right for lost balls, but that white pegs should be same as red but 2 shots instead of 1. I'd prefer being more radical, but if there was ever anything that got into the rulebook for everyone, this would be it. 2 club lengths from complete relief, same as a red stake. The rule would have a clear benefit with the elimination of any provisional for OB, and in fact I think it could also come with the elimination of the provisional ball, but it definitely would eliminate the walk-back.

 

And dropping in a fairway should really only occur if the fairway happens to be within two club lengths of complete relief.

 

I have a lot of thoughts on simplification, but I really don't think the rules are going to stay this way for long. 2027 the next changes? I'd expect the boundaries to get a lot of attention.

[sui generis]

E-5 is an outstanding enhancement to the 21st century game of golf if enacted something like this:

 

When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided the player does not have a provisional ball in play, they may use this Local Rule for Alternative to Stroke-and-Distance.

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. Add two penalty strokes.

Edited October 10, 2023 by sui generis

[kiwigolf72]

2 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

Ya, I'm sort of in the thought of E-5 is right for lost balls, but that white pegs should be same as red but 2 shots instead of 1. I'd prefer being more radical, but if there was ever anything that got into the rulebook for everyone, this would be it. 2 club lengths from complete relief, same as a red stake. The rule would have a clear benefit with the elimination of any provisional for OB, and in fact I think it could also come with the elimination of the provisional ball, but it definitely would eliminate the walk-back.

 

And dropping in a fairway should really only occur if the fairway happens to be within two club lengths of complete relief.

 

I have a lot of thoughts on simplification, but I really don't think the rules are going to stay this way for long. 2027 the next changes? I'd expect the boundaries to get a lot of attention.

2 club lengths from point it crossed OB is better than drop it on the fairway.

[rogolf]

56 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

2 club lengths from point it crossed OB is better than drop it on the fairway.

Part of the issue for differentiating would be for a ball not found near oob- is the ball lost or is it oob?

[kiwigolf72]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Part of the issue for differentiating would be for a ball not found near oob- is the ball lost or is it oob?

You would have to be sure it's OB. I would prefer for both to be re hit from where last played. 

[sui generis]

My opinion, as a long time Rules nerd and experienced referee, is that E-5 is just fine as it stands.

Edited October 10, 2023 by sui generis

[karstens_ghost]

34 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Part of the issue for differentiating would be for a ball not found near oob- is the ball lost or is it oob?

 

Known or virtually certain it was in bounds, same as the lost ball rule applies. If you're not sure, proceed as OB. In that case, it's only a matter of relief, and both would be similar.

 

If OB is two shots and full relief from boundary, or a lost ball was two shots and relief from nearest known location, it could be a mostly moot situation.

 

Not saying I have the answers, but it's one way. That's what makes rules so damned hard; they have to be universal.

[karstens_ghost]

39 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

You would have to be sure it's OB. I would prefer for both to be re hit from where last played. 

 

Sure, but if re-hitting isn't a desirable option for several reasons, what's the next best fair thing. I think we all agree fairway isn't it.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

2 club lengths from point it crossed OB is better than drop it on the fairway.

 

You really need to go through all the possibilities, the "what ifs", before making suggestions.

 

i.e. what if the ball is in a grove of trees with virtually NO clear path/shot back into the fairway ? Even dropping in the fairway might not give you a clear 4th shot to the green - but at least the ball's back in play with little (more) wasted time.

 

Think of E-5 as having hit an OK(?) provisional and needing to play it.

 

How then does this rule help pace of play ? Hence E-5.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

Known or virtually certain it was in bounds, same as the lost ball rule applies. If you're not sure, proceed as OB. In that case, it's only a matter of relief, and both would be similar.

 

If OB is two shots and full relief from boundary, or a lost ball was two shots and relief from nearest known location, it could be a mostly moot situation.

 

Not saying I have the answers, but it's one way. That's what makes rules so damned hard; they have to be universal.

 

Both would be similar ?

 

I'm missing something, am I not ? What's the difference ? I'm under the impression the ONLY remedy available for EITHER a lost ball OR hitting it OB, without E-5 in force, is S&D. What am I missing here ?

 

And why is "everyone" so up in arms about E-5 anyway ? It's only used in casual and low-level (read local) tournament play. For high(er) level tournaments, it's back to the tee (if no prov).

[kiwigolf72]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You really need to go through all the possibilities, the "what ifs", before making suggestions.

 

i.e. what if the ball is in a grove of trees with virtually NO clear path/shot back into the fairway ? Even dropping in the fairway might not give you a clear 4th shot to the green - but at least the ball's back in play with little (more) wasted time.

 

Think of E-5 as having hit an OK(?) provisional and needing to play it.

 

How then does this rule help pace of play ? Hence E-5.

I need to think of all possibilities before I make a suggestion? Interesting take and implies that you think I haven't.

I don't think you should hit it out of bounds and get rewarded by playing your next shot from the fairway.

I don't like E5 and think it should be S +D.

If they modified E5 to 2 clubs from where it went OB, I don't really care if you have to chip out from a grove of trees.

If that was the case you could still go back to the tee  or play your provisional.

Keeping your ball in play is one of the skills of the game.

 

[karstens_ghost]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You really need to go through all the possibilities, the "what ifs", before making suggestions.

 

i.e. what if the ball is in a grove of trees with virtually NO clear path/shot back into the fairway ? Even dropping in the fairway might not give you a clear 4th shot to the green - but at least the ball's back in play with little (more) wasted time.

 

Think of E-5 as having hit an OK(?) provisional and needing to play it.

 

How then does this rule help pace of play ? Hence E-5.

 

That's a hell of a thing to say. We're discussing ideas, and you're acting like there's some sort of parliamentary procedure that has to pass by you.

 

Wind your neck in, mate. 

[karstens_ghost]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Both would be similar ?

 

I'm missing something, am I not ? What's the difference ?

 

What's the difference? Maybe you should have considered all the possibilities before being under this impression.

 

We were discussing potentially more fair, in our opinion, changes to the rules before you jumped in.

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I don't like E5 and think it should be S +D.

 

You never will be compelled to play E-5, it is just another option.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I need to think of all possibilities before I make a suggestion? Interesting take and implies that you think I haven't.

I don't think you should hit it out of bounds and get rewarded by playing your next shot from the fairway.

I don't like E5 and think it should be S +D.

If they modified E5 to 2 clubs from where it went OB, I don't really care if you have to chip out from a grove of trees.

If that was the case you could still go back to the tee  or play your provisional.

Keeping your ball in play is one of the skills of the game.

 

 

4 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

What's the difference? Maybe you should have considered all the possibilities before being under this impression.

 

We were discussing potentially more fair, in our opinion, changes to the rules before you jumped in.

 

Oh,,,,, I see,,,,, it's a private conversation between 2 kiwis. My bad.

 

The last page of this thread has been discussing OB and lost balls and options for same. *I* didn't bring up E-5. And it's been brought up more than once. It's also been observed that no one HAS to use E-5.

 

E-5 is more or less "perfect" as an alternate way of penalizing OB/lost in CASUAL games and LOW-LEVEL tournaments to keep the round moving. Slow play is EASILY the #1 complaint of golfers, especially here in the States. That's why E-5 was invented.

 

So MY opinion is it's just fine the way it was. MY opinion is you're unlikely to find a "better" option for either situation than the de facto experts on the Rules; those who've been involved in making and changing them for 100+ years.

 

But it's a discussion board; even if you guys think it's a private one. So knock yourself out discussing alternatives. Please.

 

Sorry for interrupting your private conversation. I'll try to do better next time.

 

 

[kiwigolf72]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Oh,,,,, I see,,,,, it's a private conversation between 2 kiwis. My bad.

 

The last page of this thread has been discussing OB and lost balls and options for same. *I* didn't bring up E-5. And it's been brought up more than once. It's also been observed that no one HAS to use E-5.

 

E-5 is more or less "perfect" as an alternate way of penalizing OB/lost in CASUAL games and LOW-LEVEL tournaments to keep the round moving. Slow play is EASILY the #1 complaint of golfers, especially here in the States. That's why E-5 was invented.

 

So MY opinion is it's just fine the way it was. MY opinion is you're unlikely to find a "better" option for either situation than the de facto experts on the Rules; those who've been involved in making and changing them for 100+ years.

 

But it's a discussion board; even if you guys think it's a private one. So knock yourself out discussing alternatives. Please.

 

Sorry for interrupting your private conversation. I'll try to do better next time.

 

 

What.? It was not a private conversation, I'm happy to read everyone's opinion, not sure why you are on the attack. Bad day?

Edited October 10, 2023 by kiwigolf72
mistake

[Mudguard]

I've recently switched courses and the new one doesn't have E5 in effect. It does seem a bit backwards. 

Yes there's a strategy element to it. IE if you hit a screaming hook OB 50m away then I'll take my chances reteeing. But if you rip one up the left side only to discover it's bounced sideways and now one foot OB, I'll take the model rule.