Should out of bounds rule be changed?

[JD3]

I was speaking to a player in a junior tournament who had the unpleasant task of helping DQ a competitor for signing the wrong card. Basically the other guy hit one OB and dropped a ball by the stake where it went out, rather than replaying from the original spot he hit it.

 

On one hand of course it's the guy's fault who didn't know the rules. But bigger picture why not give such a player at least credit for the amount of the course that his ball did cover? Just like hitting one into a hazard marked by red stakes. Now you can say the it's not right to treat the red stake as severely as the out of bounds, however even if that case it's not as severe because one has the option of hitting out of a hazard unlike a ball in someone's back yard, etc. Also what about hitting a ball literally a hundred yards into a water hazard (which I've seen people do) which is often no longer part of the course and far more out of play than many out of bounds shots? 

 

Basically I think the kid who broke the rule, while again at fault for not knowing them, however did the intuitive thing and dropping where the ball went out. In this day and age where they're trying to decrease the amount of time it takes to play the game and simplify the rules, it makes sense to revisit this one. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by JD3

[TwistedSister]

4 minutes ago, JD3 said:

I was speaking to a player in a junior tournament who had the unpleasant task of helping DQ a competitor for signing the wrong card. Basically the other guy hit one OB and dropped a ball by the stake where it went out, rather than replaying from the original spot he hit it.

 

On one hand of course it's the guy's fault who didn't know the rules. But bigger picture why not give such a player at least credit for the amount of the course that his ball did cover? Just like hitting one into a hazard marked by red stakes. Now you can say the it's not right to treat the red stake as severely as the out of bounds, however even if that case it's not as severe because one has the option of hitting out of a hazard unlike a ball in someone's back yard, etc. Also what about hitting a ball literally a hundred yards into a water hazard (which I've seen people do) which is often no longer part of the course and far more out of play than many out of bounds shots? 

 

Basically I think the kid who broke the rule, while again at fault for not knowing them, however did the intuitive thing and dropping where the ball went out. In this day and age where they're trying to decrease the amount of time it takes to play the game and simplify the rules, it makes sense to revisit this one. 

The player who "helped DQ" the co competitor should have informed the co competitor of the rule before he hit the ball.  But wasn't the local rule in effect?

[goaliedad30]

Was MLR E-5 in effect for the event? If so, the player could drop there legally, under penalty of 2 strokes (not 1). 

 

As for should it be changed, I don't want to rehash the 14 other threads that asked this question and turned into dozens of pages. But I will go pop some popcorn ... 😁

[davep043]

2 hours ago, JD3 said:

I was speaking to a player in a junior tournament who had the unpleasant task of helping DQ a competitor for signing the wrong card. Basically the other guy hit one OB and dropped a ball by the stake where it went out, rather than replaying from the original spot he hit it.

 

On one hand of course it's the guy's fault who didn't know the rules. But bigger picture why not give such a player at least credit for the amount of the course that his ball did cover? Just like hitting one into a hazard marked by red stakes. Now you can say the it's not right to treat the red stake as severely as the out of bounds, however even if that case it's not as severe because one has the option of hitting out of a hazard unlike a ball in someone's back yard, etc. Also what about hitting a ball literally a hundred yards into a water hazard (which I've seen people do) which is often no longer part of the course and far more out of play than many out of bounds shots? 

 

Basically I think the kid who broke the rule, while again at fault for not knowing them, however did the intuitive thing and dropping where the ball went out. In this day and age where they're trying to decrease the amount of time it takes to play the game and simplify the rules, it makes sense to revisit this one. 

ITs been tried, and reversed.  You might want to read about it at www.ruleshistory.com, or buy the Principles Behind the Rules of Golf from the USGA Publications.  I don't have a problem with different levels of penalties for OB

Edit to add, I don't have a huge issue with the DQ penalty for playing from a Wrong Place/Serious Breach.   This is one of the very simple rules, its not like it was a complex situation.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by davep043

[antip]

Credit for hitting the ball off the course? No way! It doesn't get more fundamental, the ball has to stay on the course or you are reloading.

[tatertot]

We're trying to figure out how to make old courses still relevant ... and you want to make it less penal to hit the ball as hard as you can not care about where it goes. Do you see a problem here?

[Hawkeye77]

It was revisited and changed . . . . to something stupid, if the local rule is in force then you get to take your ball to the ... fairway, just take me now.  Know the rules - that's a basic one and one that there is no excuse for not knowing on the part of a tournament competitor.

 

If you can't keep your ball within the limits of the stated boundaries you really should be penalized and stroke and distance has always seemed appropriate.

 

Never understood the whining about a two stroke penalty - play better or suffer the consequences.  Most folks out there weren't playing OB correctly as it was, lol, and those to whom it should have mattered, particularly anyone playing in a competition should know the darn rule.  It's one of the most basic rules you need to know to play a round of golf

Edited June 25, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[Augster]

I’m hoping E5 is adopted more and more. When it came out, we only used it for casual play. This year, it is available for all events. It saves a massive amount of time on surprise lost balls and time on OB balls the player didn’t think was OB.  
 

Also, if the committee wanted the white stakes to be red stakes, they could put out red stakes. Moreover, they could put out red stakes and make everything beyond the stakes an NPZ-PA so players don’t have the option to play from homeowners back yards. 
 

 

[antip]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

I’m hoping E5 is adopted more and more. When it came out, we only used it for casual play. This year, it is available for all events. It saves a massive amount of time on surprise lost balls and time on OB balls the player didn’t think was OB.  
 

Also, if the committee wanted the white stakes to be red stakes, they could put out red stakes. Moreover, they could put out red stakes and make everything beyond the stakes an NPZ-PA so players don’t have the option to play from homeowners back yards. 
 

 

I play in a golfing culture where everyone plays provisionals wherever sensible and almost no courses use MLR E-5. I cannot remember when I last saw any player walk back to the tee to do S&D, certainly not in the last 2 years. 

[BIG STU]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

I’m hoping E5 is adopted more and more. When it came out, we only used it for casual play. This year, it is available for all events. It saves a massive amount of time on surprise lost balls and time on OB balls the player didn’t think was OB.  
 

Also, if the committee wanted the white stakes to be red stakes, they could put out red stakes. Moreover, they could put out red stakes and make everything beyond the stakes an NPZ-PA so players don’t have the option to play from homeowners back yards. 
 

 

They do the red stake thing a lot as a local rule down here. On the resort/tourist courses it helps speed up play. They also put drop zones green side of a lot of peality areas especially par 3s for the same reason.

I remember when I played the local Mini Tours down here we played strictly USGA rules. At every Players Meeting we were given a provision sheet that went over the local tourist Rules as we called them. And the director would like note "For you local guys who play here regularly we have the following changes ( fill in the blanks)" He would further add "pay close attention to your rules sheet for this event"----- No excuses

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, antip said:

I play in a golfing culture where everyone plays provisionals wherever sensible and almost no courses use MLR E-5. I cannot remember when I last saw any player walk back to the tee to do S&D, certainly not in the last 2 years. 

 

😀 And, many here couldn't properly play a provisional if they had to. That said, they don't know how to do E-5 either, but they drop one in some nice place and move it along. It's a win for all.

[Shilgy]

On 6/24/2022 at 6:28 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

It was revisited and changed . . . . to something stupid, if the local rule is in force then you get to take your ball to the ... fairway, just take me now.  Know the rules - that's a basic one and one that there is no excuse for not knowing on the part of a tournament competitor.

 

If you can't keep your ball within the limits of the stated boundaries you really should be penalized and stroke and distance has always seemed appropriate.

 

Never understood the whining about a two stroke penalty - play better or suffer the consequences.  Most folks out there weren't playing OB correctly as it was, lol, and those to whom it should have mattered, particularly anyone playing in a competition should know the darn rule.  It's one of the most basic rules you need to know to play a round of golf

But….but it used to be just one.   As I recall it was not stroke and distance but just distance.  As in off the tee you would hit again hitting 2.

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

But….but it used to be just one.   As I recall it was not stroke and distance but just distance.  As in off the tee you would hit again hitting 2.

Wasn't that for one year, 60 years ago? I know it's been stroke and distance since I started around '69-'70.  

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Wasn't that for one year, 60 years ago? I know it's been stroke and distance since I started around '69-'70.  

Beats me, I’m not that old either.  Just trying to help the rules are stupid crowd.😎

 

 

[sui generis]

1960 USGA Distance only. Rescinded 1961.

http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html

 

Explained fully in here (there may be a pdf of this somewhere):

https://www.usgapublications.com/products/principles-behind-the-rules-of-golf-paperback-2016-edition?variant=25702107654

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

1960 USGA Distance only. Rescinded 1961.

http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html

 

Explained fully in here (there may be a pdf of this somewhere):

https://www.usgapublications.com/products/principles-behind-the-rules-of-golf-paperback-2016-edition?variant=25702107654

The link to the rules history is very educational.  It's a good resource to address many questions (somewhat like LMGT - let me google that).

[Mr. Bean]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:37 PM, antip said:

1) I play in a golfing culture where everyone plays provisionals wherever sensible and almost no courses use MLR E-5.

 

2) I cannot remember when I last saw any player walk back to the tee to do S&D, certainly not in the last 2 years. 

 

1) Same here, but...

 

2) ... sometimes a ball is lost in an unexpected place which happened 1,5 weeks ago and I had to drive the player back to the tee. Sure, the player could have played a provisional but the entire group had the opinion that the ball is to be found.

 

No E-5 in our competitions. Maybe on club level somewhere but I have not yet encountered that LR even there.

 

[Mr. Bean]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:38 PM, BIG STU said:

They do the red stake thing a lot as a local rule down here.

 

I wonder what you mean by a local rule. Red stakes are red stakes, nothing local about that.

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I wonder what you mean by a local rule. Red stakes are red stakes, nothing local about that.

They put red stakes where OB white stakes should be--- That is a local thing around here on the Resort courses to speed up play---

[jordan2240]

I agree with the OP.  Don't allow ball to be played from OB, but allow 2-club-length drop and one stroke penalty or re-hitting from previous spot also with one stroke penalty.  If people start frequently winning tournaments because they don't care if they crush the ball OB since they don't get a distance penalty anyway, I'll change my mind.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

They put red stakes where OB white stakes should be--- That is a local thing around here on the Resort courses to speed up play---

 

Wouldn't it be simpler to put MLR E-5 into force? That would speed up play even more and you would not have to recalculate Course Rating and Slope (which you have to do if you change several OB's into PA's).

[Girevik]

I've always felt that OB should be treated just like a lateral hazard with the exception that you lose the option to play it as it lies.  That way you can't hit out of a neighbor's yard, but you're also not making the walk of shame back to the tee.  I know that others disagree, but I simply don't see why a red stake vs a white stake should make such a difference.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

I agree with the OP.  Don't allow ball to be played from OB, but allow 2-club-length drop and one stroke penalty or re-hitting from previous spot also with one stroke penalty.  

 

I doubt anybody would use the S&D option if you would be lying 2 after the drop... or what do you think?

 

E-5 is the solution here or S&D.

[BIG STU]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Wouldn't it be simpler to put MLR E-5 into force? That would speed up play even more and you would not have to recalculate Course Rating and Slope (which you have to do if you change several OB's into PA's).

I don't manage the courses I just play them. For stipulated tournament rounds like the World Ams etc they put it back to USGA guidelines. As far as the USGA or CGA ratings most courses here could care less they are in it to make money. Far as me personally I could care less I am retired and do not play any stipulated comps or keep a USGA or GHIN handicap. Maybe you could start  consulting company and tell them how it should be done

[Mr. Bean]

9 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

I don't manage the courses I just play them. For stipulated tournament rounds like the World Ams etc they put it back to USGA guidelines. As far as the USGA or CGA ratings most courses here could care less they are in it to make money. Far as me personally I could care less I am retired and do not play any stipulated comps or keep a USGA or GHIN handicap. Maybe you could start  consulting company and tell them how it should be done

 

This is a discussion forum. If you do not want to discuss you may choose not to.

[BIG STU]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is a discussion forum. If you do not want to discuss you may choose not to.

I did discuss it as to what was going on and I stated the fact I have nothing to do with their "rules nor do I care. I am not going to argue with you. And this being a discussion forum that means I can discuss things with whom I want to. In your case that means I CHOOSE to no longer discuss things with you

[llewol007]

OB is off the course and should be penalized as such. If you didn’t, you would have players cutting corners on shorter holes. Both players should have known the rules.

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

I agree with the OP.  Don't allow ball to be played from OB, but allow 2-club-length drop and one stroke penalty or re-hitting from previous spot also with one stroke penalty.  If people start frequently winning tournaments because they don't care if they crush the ball OB since they don't get a distance penalty anyway, I'll change my mind.

The Model Local Rule (E-5), if used, already permits essentially that - dropping within a large relief area, including part of the fairway, with two penalty strokes.

I'm sensing that some people don't like that Local Rule because it involves two penalty strokes, and those folks would prefer one penalty stroke (or none!).

[Girevik]

13 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The Model Local Rule (E-5), if used, already permits essentially that - dropping within a large relief area, including part of the fairway, with two penalty strokes.

I'm sensing that some people don't like that Local Rule because it involves two penalty strokes, and those folks would prefer one penalty stroke (or none!).

The local rule is a huge step forward, but if a course has not put in action then nothing has changed.  If it became an actual rule that would be great but still don't see why the color of a line makes one bad shot so much more punitive than another.

 

I would say the same for lost ball....having to go back and re-tee because you can't find a ball in long rough, even just a few yards off the fairway, feels excessive.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Girevik

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, Girevik said:

The local rule is a huge step forward, but if a course has not put in action then nothing has changed.  If it became an actual rule that would be great but still don't see why the color of a line makes one bad shot so much more punitive than another.

 

I would say the same for lost ball....having to go back and re-tee because you can't find a ball in long rough, even just a few yards off the fairway, feels excessive.

 

There are a few things the course designer uses in order to make players decide how to play a hole. Out of bounds is one of them but normally it is limited to the borders of the course. Other such things are penalty areas, bunkers, trees, heavy rough, etc. It is up to the player to decide which route to take and the OB route being most punitive that route a player should not take. So, once you take a risk you need to be aware and also accept the potential negative outcome.

 

Reasons why OB (and a lost ball) is more punitive than a penalty area have been quite nicely explained in the history of the Rules and in Tuft's marvelous book The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf. I can heartily recommend reading it.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Mr. Bean