P7TW Can a higher handicappers play them?

[Pnwpingi210]

13 minutes ago, bodhi555 said:

The only way I find the VR Pros unforgiving (the P7-TWs with a Swoosh) are the soles, and only as if you're playing out of mud like we are in the UK at the minute, you're strike better be perfect or it isn't going anywhere.

 

In summer, they're no harder to get good results out than a T100 etc.

Yeah, I did notice that.  Good nice is they don’t dig, just kind of shallowly scape across the mud.

 

[Tree Levino]

17 hours ago, Moarbutter said:

As a world renowned expert on blades (I got my first set 5 days ago and have played 3 rounds with them), I can confidently state (thanks to Dunning-Kruger) that an answer to the question of whether or not you should play blades based on HCP is a fundamentally wrong way to approach the question. I think that the answer to the question has a lot more to do with your mindset as a player and why you play golf than it has to do with anything else. I also think that the term Game Improvement iron could not be more misleading - they don't help you improve anything. A quick caveat before I continue, I think a really salient point has been made about clubhead speed. If you have a low clubhead speed in the 50s, 60s, maybe 70s w/ a 7 iron and you struggle to get the ball in the air AND you either don't have or don't want a path to faster clubhead speed due to injury, age, health, desire or any other factor, then you probably should not play blades. Golf can be one of the most frustrating games on the planet and not using every advantage you can get in that circumstance wouldn't make any sense. 

 

As I said, I think the question of whether or not you should play blades comes down to a question of why you play golf and what you want to get out of it. If you play golf because it is a social activity to do with friends once or twice a month; if when you're standing on the tee box at a par 3 you want to be the guy who pulls the highest numbered club out of the bag; if you have really low clubhead speed and aren't looking to change that; if you play golf because you want to card the lowest score you possibly can; if you play golf to win money or play professionally when your livelihood depends on your performance; if you don't have a lot of time to devote to honing your swing due to family, work, kids, preferences, or a myriad of circumstances; or any of a dozen other reasons; then you DEFINITELY shouldn't play blades. If however, you play golf because you love the constant self improvement; you love the process and the work that comes with trying to master an incredibly difficult skill; you love the idea of shot shaping and working the ball to an absurd amount; you want the purest hit of adrenaline from ABSOLUTELY PURING one, and want to chase that dragon forever; or most importantly you want to become a better ball striker and are willing to put in the work to get there; then I would STRONGLY encourage you to try them out.

 

The most important thing to consider is how much it matters to you to become a better ball-striker, whether you have the time and effort to dedicate yourself to it, and whether or not you are ok not scoring well during the process of trying to get better. I think it is absolutely essential to playing blades that you do not have an ego about your game and playing blades. You will miss shots, you will always be the person pulling out the lowest numbered club on a par 3, you'll hit your irons the shortest, and you HAVE to be ok with that. On the upside though, classical conditioning is a HELL of a useful tool if you want to get better at anything and you won't have to hit many mis-hits that make you feel like you just grabbed a frozen lightning bolt to make you want to not do that again, and there is no drug known to man that feels better than puring it with a blade. We're talking carrot and stick turned up to 11. This to me, is why Game Improvement is a horrible name for that category. It is EXTREMELY hard to improve your ball striking at all when playing that style of iron. How can you possibly improve without any feedback whatsoever.

 

To provide some context to my feelings about this, I started playing golf when I was like 2 or 3 years old. My dad and my grandpa taught me how to play, and some of my absolute fondest memories are from being on the course and playing golf with them. However, I never really caught the bug of truly loving golf. I had all the opportunity to take lessons, and to go play at the club my parents belonged to, but I just never really cared - mostly because I just could never tell when I was striking the ball well or what I was doing wrong. My thought standing over the ball was "I hope this goes well", and then swing away. I DIRECTLY attribute that to the clubs that I was playing. I had these giant shovel cast cavity back Callaway x-12 with about 6 miles of offset and a clubhead the size of a Toyota Camry. They were as Game Improvement as they come, and my game and my love of golf really struggled for that.

 

Flash forward 20 years of not playing, and I'm farting around with my buddy on the range with my cobweb covered set of shovels, and he lets me hit his forged set of Adams with very little cavity and it was like I saw the face of God. I could actually FEEL where the ball contacted the club - there was an actual responsiveness to it, and when I struck it well it felt like a choir of angels singing. Another couple years went by, and I picked up the game again last year, and told myself that I would get a set of clubs that were WAY too good for me to help me improve my game. I got a set of Mizuno JPX 923 Tours with a 7-iron clubhead speed of 78 MPH and a HCP of like 30. My theme for this past year was to get good at golf, and I'm really happy with the amount of progress that I was able to make. I can attribute a lot of that to the clubs that I played. While they aren't blades, they're about as close as you can get in a cavity back, and I was able to get a lot of the responsiveness and feel that I was looking for that kept me coming back and made it significantly easier to learn how to make solid contact with the ball. By the end of the season I was up to a 92 mph clubhead speed w/ my 7-iron and a HCP of 16.1.

 

I got a set of blades for this coming year with the exact same thing in mind, and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. The difference between the JPXs and my blades feels like riding a bicycle without training wheels. Hitting them is an incredibly joyous feeling. As far as forgiveness goes, I think that the notorious reputation that blades get is largely unjustified in the modern game. Is it harder to score with them - absolutely. However, I'm noticing that a maybe 30 yard miss right with my JPX will be maybe 15 right and 15 short which on the courses that I play are usually going to be really playable. It makes it punishing and gives me the room for improvement that I'm looking for, while putting me in a challenging situation that the golf course was designed for. My blades bring interesting hazards like bunkers, rough, carries over bunkers all into play and make me actually appreciate the architecture of the golf course even more. I play golf BECAUSE it is challenging, not despite it. I enjoy testing myself against myself AND against the course; and I feel like playing blades does that better than any other set of clubs you could find.

 

If this has moved you, or maybe gotten you interested in playing blades - there are a BUNCH of sets that are available on Ebay for very little money. I'm talking sub $300. I'm not going to go into every recommendation for specific blades, mostly because I have no experience or knowledge of them, but the benefit to being a hunk of metal on the end of a stick is that 10, 20, 30 year old or older clubs are still perfectly viable. Look for a set that wasn't famous(Titleist 681 and Mizuno MP-14 I'm looking at you) for who used them or what was won with them from the past couple of decades that are in pretty good condition and just give it a try. The worst thing that happens is that set of irons gets another steward, and you make your money back from the next person who wants to try them out. Who knows, though? They might just make you fall in love.

These kinds of posts only come about in winter. If you’re serious about the game I agree for some moving to a smaller iron can help. The smaller iron doesn’t need to be an all out blade. You get the exact same look from something like a T100 but it isn’t going to drop off as much. It’s always a high handicap on the soap box about blades but the reality is there are performance differences and if improving your striking and scores matters to you, it’s generally better to play something with a bit of help or if you’re hell bent on the blades at least do a combo set. If Scheffler, the best tee-to-green player in the world, uses hollow bodied irons in his 3 and 4 iron slots, do you really think anyone on this forum should reeeeally be playing the 3 and 4 iron in this set? We always get the argument that “well they’re playing for millions”. Yeah, for sure, and if you get more enjoyment out of the long irons in this set and you want to score worse go for it. My average score this year was 73 I think. I swing 7i mid 90s. I played a set of P7TW for a few rounds in the summer and then switched back to my mizuno MP20 MMC and won my match play club championship. It’s really nice knowing that when you catch one a bit clean it’s going to cover the water instead of going in on a forced carry. Attached 7i numbers for reference and to make a counter argument against the “speed makes them work” idea. I just end up spinning the ball more with irons like that. 34* 7i in photo. I love the feel of the P7TW they spin a ton for me and hitting one less club in has a very meaningful impact on scores. 
 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Tree Levino

[Pnwpingi210]

4 hours ago, Tree Levino said:

These kinds of posts only come about in winter. If you’re serious about the game I agree for some moving to a smaller iron can help. The smaller iron doesn’t need to be an all out blade. You get the exact same look from something like a T100 but it isn’t going to drop off as much. It’s always a high handicap on the soap box about blades but the reality is there are performance differences and if improving your striking and scores matters to you, it’s generally better to play something with a bit of help or if you’re hell bent on the blades at least do a combo set. If Scheffler, the best tee-to-green player in the world, uses hollow bodied irons in his 3 and 4 iron slots, do you really think anyone on this forum should reeeeally be playing the 3 and 4 iron in this set? We always get the argument that “well they’re playing for millions”. Yeah, for sure, and if you get more enjoyment out of the long irons in this set and you want to score worse go for it. My average score this year was 73 I think. I swing 7i mid 90s. I played a set of P7TW for a few rounds in the summer and then switched back to my mizuno MP20 MMC and won my match play club championship. It’s really nice knowing that when you catch one a bit clean it’s going to cover the water instead of going in on a forced carry. Attached 7i numbers for reference and to make a counter argument against the “speed makes them work” idea. I just end up spinning the ball more with irons like that. 34* 7i in photo. I love the feel of the P7TW they spin a ton for me and hitting one less club in has a very meaningful impact on scores. 
 

 

It’s a great post and appreciate your insight.  It just goes to show that different swings get different results.  We have similar swing speeds and ball speeds but likely have different path and aoa.

 

the p7tw actually launch lower and spin less for me than a t100 or even my mp32 when adjust for loft.  I actually have mine bent weak now and anm essentially a playing a 3-pw p7tw set instead of a 4-pw + 50 degree  wedge of comparable irons with stronger loft.  Yes the 3 iron is probably a bit harder to hit than t100 4 iron.  But for me that’s a club I’m hitting well beyond 200 yards and generally don’t expect to be flag hunting.   

[MelloYello]

23 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Agree with most of this.  

 

I end up with high floaty miss hits when I try to play a set of cobra tours, t100s, any of the techy players irons.  I dont get that with my mp32’s or p7tws. With no wind or a tailwind, I think the king tours and t100s are 5 yards or so longer loft for loft as I squeeze a bit more ball speed out of them but they spin more and apex higher and aren’t as easy to flight down for me.

 

 I played 9 holes in a misty rain at 49 degrees outside and missed 1 green in reg playing only  irons from the forward tees playing a club not to my spec and my first time hitting them.  Can’t ask for much more than that.

 

for reference I’m about 1-0 degrees  in to out, 2.5-3.5 down aoa, and about 95 ish mph as with a 7 iron.

 

 

 

I think the experience a lot of folks have is so overwhelmingly positive that you wonder if a lot of golfers wouldn't be well served using a blade for awhile.

 

I personally don't see why anyone wouldn't want to use a blade or blade-adjacent player's CB (bapcb). If someone hits their 8- or 9-iron 150 they have the distance to play with blades and even if they only hit their 7-iron that distance, they're still probably short enough to stay out of trouble and spend most of the time in the fairway where the 7-iron is totally adequate.

 

Only if someone were short to the point of need a 6-iron or more from 150 would I really recommend something more distance-oriented. 

 

Perhaps blades and bapcb's are just a type of club more correlated with improvement over time and some conscious effort towards training one's swing? Perhaps blades and bapcb's actually are an optimal choice for golfers looking to hone their strike? 

 

Several of the better players at my club do in fact use blades and of those that don't, it's always a bapcb. I think there's a message in that. 

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, MelloYello said:

 

I think the experience a lot of folks have is so overwhelmingly positive that you wonder if a lot of golfers wouldn't be well served using a blade for awhile.

 

I personally don't see why anyone wouldn't want to use a blade or blade-adjacent player's CB (bapcb). If someone hits their 8- or 9-iron 150 they have the distance to play with blades and even if they only hit their 7-iron that distance, they're still probably short enough to stay out of trouble and spend most of the time in the fairway where the 7-iron is totally adequate.

 

Only if someone were short to the point of need a 6-iron or more from 150 would I really recommend something more distance-oriented. 

 

Perhaps blades and bapcb's are just a type of club more correlated with improvement over time and some conscious effort towards training one's swing? Perhaps blades and bapcb's actually are an optimal choice for golfers looking to hone their strike? 

 

Several of the better players at my club do in fact use blades and of those that don't, it's always a bapcb. I think there's a message in that. 

A could play happily play the traditional cb that doesn’t have a bunch of tungsten shoved low and toward the tow to increase launch and spin.   I actually preferred the 620 cb to the p7tw, I just couldn’t get them from titleist with a low enough headweight to play at 1 inch over with the shaft I play. I was able to get light p7tw heads.  

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

3 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I think the experience a lot of folks have is so overwhelmingly positive that you wonder if a lot of golfers wouldn't be well served using a blade for awhile.

 

I personally don't see why anyone wouldn't want to use a blade or blade-adjacent player's CB (bapcb). If someone hits their 8- or 9-iron 150 they have the distance to play with blades and even if they only hit their 7-iron that distance, they're still probably short enough to stay out of trouble and spend most of the time in the fairway where the 7-iron is totally adequate.

 

Only if someone were short to the point of need a 6-iron or more from 150 would I really recommend something more distance-oriented. 

 

Perhaps blades and bapcb's are just a type of club more correlated with improvement over time and some conscious effort towards training one's swing? Perhaps blades and bapcb's actually are an optimal choice for golfers looking to hone their strike? 

 

Several of the better players at my club do in fact use blades and of those that don't, it's always a bapcb. I think there's a message in that. 

 

A lot of it is mental as well. For some standing over a clean looking blade inspires confidence in a good shot while others standing over a blade they think they are going to shank the ball into the woods since it's a blade. The result usually follows that confidence. Reason for the honeymoon effect as well.

[Joesti]

I went from a set of p770 to mizuno pro 221. My iron play is currently the best it has ever been. Now to follow that up I believe how I strike the ball just works really well with the 221. I launch high and typically when I miss It will be low or low heel so I don't see a lot of drop off. My 7i ss is around 88-89 mph and I have a shallow attack. All the stars aligned on me being a great fit for blades. I did not even have them on my radar when I went in for the iron fitting... they just gave me better numbers than anything else I tried. You need to get fit and try them to see if that's the case for you or not. I Have not hit the tw blades but wish I could try them out. Now as far as the 4 iron I might swap it for a 223 if I am being honest. I can strike the 221 just fine and I am very confident with it but the gap between my 5 iron and 4 iron is only like 8-10 yards carry and I want it to be closer to like 15 yards on the top end of the bag. Also with all of this being said I play 5-6 days a week as I have a simulator in my garage. If you play once or twice a week you might have a bad time😄

[markheardjr]

Center of Gravity is a big indicator of forgiveness in a blade. Cleveland 588MBs were considered "Game Improvement" by Maltby rating because how low CG they were. I'm guessing P7TW is going to be higher CoG, and as such are going to be harder to hit. I would try them, see if you can get the ball airborne and ball speeds / carry distances with the dispersion you want.

[Kmagnuss]

I love this thread.

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, markheardjr said:

Center of Gravity is a big indicator of forgiveness in a blade. Cleveland 588MBs were considered "Game Improvement" by Maltby rating because how low CG they were. I'm guessing P7TW is going to be higher CoG, and as such are going to be harder to hit. I would try them, see if you can get the ball airborne and ball speeds / carry distances with the dispersion you want.

 

Here are the VCoG's of several common blades along with their Maltby Playability Factor in ():

 

0.807" - Taylormade P7MB (321)

0.813" - Mizuno Pro 221 (303)

0.815" - Nike VR Pro (379)

0.832" - Callaway Apex MB (408) 

0.852" - Titleist 620 MB (287)

0.864" - Srixon Z-Forged (350)

0.861" - Wilson Staff Model (365)

0.865" - Taylormade P7TW (282)

 

You can see that TW does end up on the high end of VCoG and is relatively unforgiving along with Titleist and to some degree Srixon, too. In fact, Srixon offers 2* less loft than most so it's probably the Srixons you currently have that are truly the challenging club if we're being honest. 

 

With the traditional lofts of a Titleist or P7TW most folks would get it in the air fine. What they probably wouldn't like is constantly having to club up to make up for the loss of distance. It seems people want their 8- or even 9-irons going 150 these days. Nobody wants to feel like they have to pull 7-iron out. 

 

.

Edited December 7, 2023 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

On 12/6/2023 at 11:25 AM, MK7Golf21 said:

 

A lot of it is mental as well. For some standing over a clean looking blade inspires confidence in a good shot while others standing over a blade they think they are going to shank the ball into the woods since it's a blade. The result usually follows that confidence. Reason for the honeymoon effect as well.

 

In my experience, players aren't really scared of them like that. I think that's a bit of a myth. What I do find though is that players tend to experience them as less powerful and tend to start swinging wildly. 

 

I'll be honest, I think you could actually make a pretty strong case that a person playing a lot of golf probably should have blades just as a training tool. It's pretty hard to use blades for an extended period and not develop a reasonably good ability to put the club on the ball. 

 

Another myth seems to be the 20-handicap hack who's duffing it around with blades. I never saw that guy either. The guys I see with blades handle them fine, regardless of handicap. The ones who have a higher index just tend to blow their shots right/left like anyone might. It's not a club thing. 

[lefthack]

If you buy in a store, they check your GHIN before purchase. If you buy off eBay, you should be good, unless the seller decides to check before bidding. 

[Pnwpingi210]

33 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Here are the VCoG's of several common blades along with their Maltby Playability Factor in ():

 

0.807" - Taylormade P7MB (321)

0.813" - Mizuno Pro 221 (303)

0.815" - Nike VR Pro (379)

0.832" - Callaway Apex MB (408) 

0.852" - Titleist 620 MB (287)

0.864" - Srixon Z-Forged (350)

0.861" - Wilson Staff Model (365)

0.865" - Taylormade P7TW (282)

 

You can see that TW does end up on the high end of VCoG and is relatively unforgiving along with Titleist and to some degree Srixon, too. In fact, Srixon offers 2* less loft than most so it's probably the Srixons you currently have that are truly the challenging club if we're being honest. 

 

With the traditional lofts of a Titleist or P7TW most folks would get it in the air fine. What they probably wouldn't like is constantly having to club up to make up for the loss of distance. It seems people want their 8- or even 9-irons going 150 these days. Nobody wants to feel like they have to pull 7-iron out. 

 

.

This is part of it.  Mine are bent weak.  I pulled my 50 degree sm9 and now play a 3-pw set that lofted just about the same as the modern 4-pw + 50 degree.  They fly about the same distance with the benefit of being able to hit partials and flighted shots much easier.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Pnwpingi210

[MelloYello]

9 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

This is part of it.  Mine are bent weak.  I pulled my 50 degree sm9 and now play a 3-pw set that lofted just about the same as the modern 4-pw + 50 degree.  They fly about the same distance with the benefit of being able to hit partials and flighted shots much easier.

 

 

 

Awesome! 

 

I played the Nike TW Blade for a long time. Great clubs. I would've bought some of the P7TW's were they not so expensive back when they came out. 🙂

 

Truth be told, I bet you'll be as good as ever once you get dialed into a set like you've got there. 

[MelloYello]

23 minutes ago, lefthack said:

If you buy in a store, they check your GHIN before purchase. If you buy off eBay, you should be good, unless the seller decides to check before bidding. 

 

That's a lie!

 

 

...nobody sells them in stores! 😉

[Maine Golfer]

Greg Norman said you could not, just got off the phone with him talking about Rahm but snuck your question in at the end. He said if you can hit a 7 iron 160, maybe Australian Blades but he's mad with Tiger for not joining Liv. 

[Tree Levino]

3 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

This is part of it.  Mine are bent weak.  I pulled my 50 degree sm9 and now play a 3-pw set that lofted just about the same as the modern 4-pw + 50 degree.  They fly about the same distance with the benefit of being able to hit partials and flighted shots much easier.

 

 

 

Then you realize tiger no longer plays his very own model of 3 iron lol 

[Pnwpingi210]

7 minutes ago, Tree Levino said:

 

Then you realize tiger no longer plays his very own model of 3 iron lol 

I do.  I play it mostly cause I just got the irons and am enjoying the experience.   If I find I have a problem hitting it and it’s impacting my scores I will likely look for something to replace it…..

[Jbar]

Did anyone try to make P7TW 1-2* stronger? I was wondering how much it would impact performance and distance.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 hour ago, Jbar said:

Did anyone try to make P7TW 1-2* stronger? I was wondering how much it would impact performance and distance.

Im actually went the other way, and weakened the them 1-2 degrees.  Dropped my 50 degree specialty wedge and added the 3.  This gives me essentially a 4-gw modern lofted set with minimal offset and a bit more bounce, with 3 - pw stamped on soles.   Gave me more height in the long irons if needed.  

[Jbar]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Im actually went the other way, and weakened the them 1-2 degrees.  Dropped my 50 degree specialty wedge and added the 3.  This gives me essentially a 4-gw modern lofted set with minimal offset and a bit more bounce, with 3 - pw stamped on soles.   Gave me more height in the long irons if needed.  

Yeah! That would be interesting to do that. I plan on changing X100 to a graphite shaft like MMT and stiff. My shoulders flared up after two straight rounds this week. I struggled to finish up strong in the back nine at the tournament. I often wished that PW could be my gap wedge. More likely 49*

[Pnwpingi210]

8 minutes ago, Jbar said:

Yeah! That would be interesting to do that. I plan on changing X100 to a graphite shaft like MMT and stiff. My shoulders flared up after two straight rounds this week. I struggled to finish up strong in the back nine at the tournament. I often wished that PW could be my gap wedge. More likely 49*

The pw has now become my favorite club.  It’s bent to 49.  I can squeeze 135 out of it, but the ability to hit shots 120-100 with it is not something I’ve experienced before and couldn’t do with my previous 50.