Beyond Breaking 80

[dvq9654]

49 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

Big thanks!

Man if I could just hit the 10hcp averages I'd be on top of the world.  Well I guess I had better stop kidding myself about my putting.

for what it’s worth, Arccos has average putts per round for a 0 handicap at 30.7, which is much different than the Shot Scope chart. Not sure which source is more accurate, but 29 putts per round sounds a little too good, especially considering tour median among top 200 looks to be close to 29 

[dubbelbogey]

Be sure you're using a real apples-to-apples comparison when counting putts.

 

The "official" way is only count a stroke as a putt is if it is strictly on the green surface. 1" onto the fringe and  14 feet from the hole is not considered a "putt" for official scoring purposes, even though almost always that shot is struck with a putter. And most of us have at least a few of these types of shots per round.

 

This is also, btw, the reason that counting total putts is a fairly flawed metric. It doesn't really tell you how good you are at that particular skill.  But counting putts in the strictly official manner might at least make you feel not so bad as it'll almost certainly be a lower number than simply counting the number of strokes you take with your putter during the round.

[pinsucker]

This has been mentioned before but the keys to consistently shooting around par is to build your entire approach to the long game around hitting more GIR, not dropping shots. You said no punishing drives, but you need to expand that mindset to no "punishing anything", meaning: no losing golf balls, not hitting it where you can't get the next shot to a good spot, not leaving yourself in a difficult scrambling situation. For most of us, that means never doing anything off the tee that could result in not having a decent shot into the green and aiming for the dead middle of the green (both in depth and direction) with anything longer than an 8 iron (of course this varies based on the size of the greens). Now the difficult part is staying disciplined with this and acquiring a good enough game that you can average 12 GIR and not get yourself in a dropped shot situation ever. Assuming you hit 12 GIR and 2-putt every hole that would lead to a 78 on a normal par 72 course, which would be the worst you could do given those stats but you would probably should around par there assuming you got up down around 50% of the time (remember you never got yourself in a situation where it was a difficult up and down) and got about 3 birdies. 

[ChaosTheory]

17 minutes ago, dubbelbogey said:

Be sure you're using a real apples-to-apples comparison when counting putts.

 

The "official" way is only count a stroke as a putt is if it is strictly on the green surface. 1" onto the fringe and  14 feet from the hole is not considered a "putt" for official scoring purposes, even though almost always that shot is struck with a putter. And most of us have at least a few of these types of shots per round.

 

This is also, btw, the reason that counting total putts is a fairly flawed metric. It doesn't really tell you how good you are at that particular skill.  But counting putts in the strictly official manner might at least make you feel not so bad as it'll almost certainly be a lower number than simply counting the number of strokes you take with your putter during the round.

Yes, very true.  I count putts from the close fringe.  Say within two feet of the green.  Thanks for the reminder.  
 

Also that means I don’t hit 8.5 GIR.

[ChaosTheory]

I’m really liking the one putt count as a barometer, in my case.  And the three putt count for that matter.  

[Barfolomew]

Ya but what's gonna get you there is the question.....

 

You know all the stuff to improve or not to do, you're list of things is fine lol 🐔

 

Personally I get better when I play a lot in a short amount of time, so playing/practicing often.  I need to avoid injuries now like nagging wrist etc but if I can practice every other day for a couple weeks, I'll level up for sure.  Then I can back off to a maintenance level practice.... but its the playin often that works for me 🐫

[NJBigFish22]

4 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Quick benchmark 

Thanks for posting, It is interesting looking at these numbers.  With that said, I don’t think this is an accurate way to differentiate between handicaps. Or in the OP’s case constantly being sub 80.  I realize this is an average from probably a large data set.  But let’s take this literal for a single round and not view as an average.  So if golfer A shoots par 72 as a 0 cap, and Golfer B shoots 77 as a 5.  So golfer B based on the chart had less than 1 putt more.  So he squandered 4+ shots somewhere on the course. So average putts per round is a low marker for shooting near par.  More evidence of this is a 25 cap is averaging 4 more putts. So if the 25 cap has 29 putts in a round, something in his game is still costing 21 shots a round.  So in my opinion putts per round doesn’t have that big of an impact on constantly shooting sub 80  In the chart above the most telling stat is average holes per 3 putt, for figuring a handicap over 10-20 rounds, this proves to be a significant number over time to determine a lower cap, cause it shows more consistency.

[SNIPERBBB]

36 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

Thanks for posting, It is interesting looking at these numbers.  With that said, I don’t think this is an accurate way to differentiate between handicaps. Or in the OP’s case constantly being sub 80.  I realize this is an average from probably a large data set.  But let’s take this literal for a single round and not view as an average.  So if golfer A shoots par 72 as a 0 cap, and Golfer B shoots 77 as a 5.  So golfer B based on the chart had less than 1 putt more.  So he squandered 4+ shots somewhere on the course. So average putts per round is a low marker for shooting near par.  More evidence of this is a 25 cap is averaging 4 more putts. So if the 25 cap has 29 putts in a round, something in his game is still costing 21 shots a round.  So in my opinion putts per round doesn’t have that big of an impact on constantly shooting sub 80  In the chart above the most telling stat is average holes per 3 putt, for figuring a handicap over 10-20 rounds, this proves to be a significant number over time to determine a lower cap, cause it shows more consistency.

 

Squandering is bit of a harsh term unless the guy is not hitting the GIRS from 80 yards out...in your scenario the 0 hits 11 GIRS for 22 putts and 100% scrambling for the remaining 7 greens(7 putts) thus 29 putts. The 5 fails to scramble 5x for 10 putts total, 7  GIRs and makes par for 14 putts and successfully scrambles for par 6 times for a total of 30 putts. So the 0 had 11 GIRS vs the 5's 7 but just one more 1-putt. This is obviously a clean excample, real life(or at least my golf as I fall in-between these caps) is theres a lot offsetting birdie/bogey holes(and they're usually back to back <_<).

 

Biggest thing I see when playing with higher caps is they arent giving themselves makeable chances for par when scrambling...you cant be consistently outside my birdie putt if you're putting for par. Sometimes this is just from a piss poor chip or piss poor second shot that leaves 30+ yards to the putting surface.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, NJBigFish22 said:

Thanks for posting, It is interesting looking at these numbers.  With that said, I don’t think this is an accurate way to differentiate between handicaps. Or in the OP’s case constantly being sub 80.  I realize this is an average from probably a large data set.  But let’s take this literal for a single round and not view as an average.  So if golfer A shoots par 72 as a 0 cap, and Golfer B shoots 77 as a 5.  So golfer B based on the chart had less than 1 putt more.  So he squandered 4+ shots somewhere on the course. So average putts per round is a low marker for shooting near par.  More evidence of this is a 25 cap is averaging 4 more putts. So if the 25 cap has 29 putts in a round, something in his game is still costing 21 shots a round.  So in my opinion putts per round doesn’t have that big of an impact on constantly shooting sub 80  In the chart above the most telling stat is average holes per 3 putt, for figuring a handicap over 10-20 rounds, this proves to be a significant number over time to determine a lower cap, cause it shows more consistency.

Excellent observation - and that’s why I prefer to look at SG categories and their relative importance to differentiate amongst cap levels - to see that the ball striking ones out weight the short game and putting stats - at all cap levels… this chart above is basically showing the importance of 3putt avoidance…

 

and on a side note, it is interesting to see that the SG:ptt category is the one that has the biggest correlation to scoring average on the PGA tour - meaning that it isn’t relatively important in the long run (compared to SG:app and SG:ott), but that in the short run (a round, a tourney) you can’t go lower than your buddies if they don’t drop; the hot putter theory is true… and you can see it just looking at your own rounds/scores…

 

So, I’ll always bet on the better ball striker in the long run - but even he can’t beat a hot putter in a single round

[NJBigFish22]

43 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

 

Squandering is bit of a harsh term unless the guy is not hitting the GIRS from 80 yards out...in your scenario the 0 hits 11 GIRS for 22 putts and 100% scrambling for the remaining 7 greens(7 putts) thus 29 putts. The 5 fails to scramble 5x for 10 putts total, 7  GIRs and makes par for 14 putts and successfully scrambles for par 6 times for a total of 30 putts. So the 0 had 11 GIRS vs the 5's 7 but just one more 1-putt. This is obviously a clean excample, real life(or at least my golf as I fall in-between these caps) is theres a lot offsetting birdie/bogey holes(and they're usually back to back <_<).

 

Biggest thing I see when playing with higher caps is they arent giving themselves makeable chances for par when scrambling...you cant be consistently outside my birdie putt if you're putting for par. Sometimes this is just from a piss poor chip or piss poor second shot that leaves 30+ yards to the putting surface.

Squandering may be harsh like you said, but in the example I made it wasn’t that the 0 cap was at 29 putts and the 5 was at 34 putts.  So where was the 4 shot difference?  I think you summed it up perfectly, it’s ball striking or hitting approach shots closer to the pin.  So it holds true that looking at putts per round isn’t a good predictor in handicap difference.

 

 

[SwingBlues]

9 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

This is helping clarify my thoughts.

 

 I don’t keep any detailed stats, just the basics.

 I hit enough GIRs .  Could always be more but it’s enough.

 

Poor scoring average on par fives.  We have a couple that are well bunkered off the tees, and then again in the layup zone, and it’s easy to end up with bogey.  I’m still working through the risk reward mix off of those tees.

 

Putting.  32 putts for me is a rare, great day.  I’m usually 35 ish, with the occasional really bad 39 or 40.  Lag putting on fast greens is definitely a work in progress.  For me, firm fast greens are driving up my scores, as they affect approaches, chips, and putts.

 

Edit to add:

For the last 8 rounds:

GIRs 8.5

Putts 35.5

Par 5 avg:  5.6

Par 4 avg: 4.5

Par 3 avg: 3.5

I don't track fairways because I'm a good driver.

 

Par Saves of any type:  26%

Birdies: Not many.  5 in 8 rounds.  2 on the same par 3, 2 on the same shortish par 4, one on another shortish par 4. 

 

 

IMO, what it doesn't tell us is the miss. Get yourself a shot tracker, for example a Garmin S62 or in my case, a Voice Caddie T9 GPS watch. This gives you a shot by shot by hole, on the app and you can clearly see what your miss is and where you need to improve.

 

For example, lets take the Par 5 5.6 average. What's causing you NOT to hit GIR and 2 putt for Par or a shot for birdie? Are you miss hitting the 2nd shot 3 wood? bad short game on the 3rd?

 

Do a feedback post round to see what you need to work on. Having a shot tracker like the one in my T9 nails what I need to work on & improve

 

Hope this helps.

[Dinosaur]

I finally was able to get out on the course today amiss of my normal casino chaffeuring duties for SWMBO.  I have been practicing fervently with my recently acquired Titleist MB's (off a mat) and gaining reasonable consistency. In any event, it was a good round. I was only 2 over for the front nine, but ended up 8 overall (including one double on the back). Interestingly enough not a single birdie. My irons were giving me contact troubles probably due to not hitting off actual turf and I have not adjusted yet. I had to use hybrids a lot. (Favorite being a 21 deg Bobby Jones Black Bird by Jesse Ortiz). I did not break 80 but it was three behind my last score of 83, so I feel pretty good about it. I was able to hit nearly every fairway, but only 2 GIR. Putting was decent though with no 3 P's. Heck, I think I will try to find a Bobby Jones 25 deg. Those hybrids are a different beast and more like a fairway wood but easier to hit. It has been several weeks since I have played, hence my low expectations...but  all's well that ends well.

[LeftDot]

14 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

Yes, very true.  I count putts from the close fringe.  Say within two feet of the green.  Thanks for the reminder.  
 

Also that means I don’t hit 8.5 GIR.

 

17 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

This is helping clarify my thoughts.

 

 I don’t keep any detailed stats, just the basics.

 I hit enough GIRs .  Could always be more but it’s enough.

 

Poor scoring average on par fives.  We have a couple that are well bunkered off the tees, and then again in the layup zone, and it’s easy to end up with bogey.  I’m still working through the risk reward mix off of those tees.

 

[ ... ]

 

I don't track fairways because I'm a good driver.

 

 

 

There has been a lot of discussion on your putting as there should be, and great points by all. After reading these, though, I've got to go back to my first reply: better course management is going to help you. SwingBlues has the right idea as well, what's hurting you outside of putting? I used to make notes on my scorecards about where/how I dropped strokes on a hole. 

 

 

[alittleoverpar]

IMO the best way to improve is to keep accurate statistics of your game.  If you track your stats, over time it's pretty easy to identify the areas that need work.  Obviously, if you are consistently shooting 78-82 then you are able to do a lot of things well.  However, not everyone who shoots in that range has the same strengths.  You may be a great putter and I may have a better short game.  Unless you track the numbers, it's hard to find your weaknesses.  

 

I don't track my stats all the time, but I go through periods where I will track everything for a series of rounds.  There are a lot of devices today that can make this process fairly painless.  

[ChaosTheory]

1 hour ago, LeftDot said:

 

 

 

There has been a lot of discussion on your putting as there should be, and great points by all. After reading these, though, I've got to go back to my first reply: better course management is going to help you. SwingBlues has the right idea as well, what's hurting you outside of putting? I used to make notes on my scorecards about where/how I dropped strokes on a hole. 

 

 

 

Actually I'm a very good course manager.  I have the occasional bad swing like any 10 handicap.  If anything I am probably too conservative.   

 

Most of what I consider dropped shots come from failure to get up and down.   I am new to Bermuda rough, and it's tricky, so I'm not chipping close enough, and I'm not making the putts.  Lots of room for improvement there.  I'm working on it.

 

Longer narrative of tough holes if anyone is interested.

 

I have identified 4 holes that are hard for me. 

 

One has a shallow green that just won't hold, and there are no good misses (that are easy to play for).  Can't tell you how many times I've rolled off the back or side and partway down into the rough.   Water in front plus a mound plus a bunker that if you are in, you're playing out of it towards the water.  If the green would hold, it'd be an easy hole.  But it won't so it's not.  I'm still working on this one.  Gonna start taking more risk off the tee to try for shorter approaches.  More risk means getting closer to the water that's in line with the green.  Even if the drive rolls into the pond,  I'm laying 2 from a flat fairway, hitting a wedge.   Not ideal but not the end of the world either.  Most of us lay safely back, which often turns out to be another 40 yards back.  I'm just not getting any GIR here, so it's time to take some risk.

 

One is a tough par 3. I'm hitting a 5 or 6, and it's hard to hold.  Deep bunkers.  The miss is to take enough club to take the bunkers out but then I end up at the back of a big green.  Lots of bogeys but that's fine.

 

One is a par 5.  Cross bunker with tall lip, right where my driver will carry & roll.  Left of it is a sucker's play because of proximity of cart path and a mound that can send the ball to OB.   Right of it is blind off the tee, over some trees in a creek, but is the best place for a driver (to me).  Woods farther right.  Successful driver leaves an easy layup over the NEXT cross bunker (grrrr!), which leaves a 60-70 yard shot to the green which sits off to the right.  That's if everything works as planned.  Or layup off the tee and hope you get close enough to the first cross bunker to be able to hit a fairway wood, off an uneven lie, over the next cross bunker.  If you have to lay up short of the second cross bunker, then you might have a 7 or 8 iron over a mature tree that's near the green.  I can clear it but there's a lot of death lurking about.  And the green runs away from you.  You get the point, lol. 

 

The finishing hole is long and has a tough tee shot.   Of a 60 yard wide landing/rollout zone, 30 of them are taken up by substantial bunkers on each side.  So either get through the goal posts or you're looking at bogey.  Laying up short off the tee leaves a long shot to a heavily bunkered green.  I don't lay up.  I make a lot of bogeys there, but that's okay.

 

I don't blame anyone for skipping that section.  🙂

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Whats the rating and slope of the course? 

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Whats the rating and slope of the course? 

From the blues it is 73.6, 133.

 

I play from 3 different intermediate tees and combos depending on partners or league etc.  My shortest one is 68, 121 and we all think those numbers are too low.  It keeps my index up. 😕

[SwingBlues]

4 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

Actually I'm a very good course manager.  I have the occasional bad swing like any 10 handicap.  If anything I am probably too conservative.   

 

Most of what I consider dropped shots come from failure to get up and down.   I am new to Bermuda rough, and it's tricky, so I'm not chipping close enough, and I'm not making the putts.  Lots of room for improvement there.  I'm working on it.

 

Longer narrative of tough holes if anyone is interested.

 

I have identified 4 holes that are hard for me. 

:

:

I don't blame anyone for skipping that section.  🙂

 

 

 

...there. You've answered your own question. Now you have SPECIFIC tasks to work on to improve 👍

 

😉

Edited July 7, 2022 by SwingBlues

[ChaosTheory]

1 minute ago, SwingBlues said:

 

...there. You've answered your own question. Now you have SPECIFIC tasks to work on to get improve 👍

 

😉

Yes!   But it took a village to get me there. 🤓

[SNIPERBBB]

33 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

From the blues it is 73.6, 133.

 

I play from 3 different intermediate tees and combos depending on partners or league etc.  My shortest one is 68, 121 and we all think those numbers are too low.  It keeps my index up. 😕

Tough track at 73.6,  Low singles would have to be playing pretty well to break 80 going off that rating. Tough tracks, you have to be a bit more buttoned up to play score well Yeah when you move up to the 68, it will destroy your cap unless you can take advantage of the length difference. Which is where the break with scratch and better golfers happen vs the longer, erratic players.  They tend to take advantage of the 120 and in shots a lot better.  

[KevCannon]

Of course it’s about avoiding trouble, no wasted strokes, etc etc….but I know for me shooting in the high 70’s to get down to even par and rounds in the high 60’s, it was doing all those things and making birdies. Those 5-10 foot putts and the occasional 15-20 footer are the difference maker, and anything closer of course. Obviously great ball striking always helps if you hit it closer but get good at 5-10 feet.

[Kdaniel72]

On 7/6/2022 at 9:02 AM, Snowman9000 said:

What comes after:

No 3 putts

No punishing drives

No doubles

No bogies on par 5s

Play for the back edge

Just get it on the green/ No 2 chips

 

I'd like to break 78 once in a while.  I believe in the above list but it only takes me so far.  Basically low 80s with the occasional 79 or 78.  My PB is a couple of 72s but those were just freakish rounds.

 

 I don’t want this to be about me.  What comes next after the low(est) hanging fruit?  Where do the next two strokes get dropped?

 

 

What does play for the back edge mean?

[ChaosTheory]

1 hour ago, Kdaniel72 said:

What does play for the back edge mean?

 

Well, most of the how to break 90 advice includes the part about how most golfers under club, and should pull clubs based on the back edge number.  So I was asking for the same kind of list for breaking 80, but with more appropriate items.

[Chunkitgood]

Key to score is GIR’s.

 

Key to GIR’s is striking the ball properly (aka controlling low point, in front of ball that is), then learning consistently to hit fade or draw.

 

To shoot par, hit 12 greens.

 

I know people who shoot in the high 70’s frequently but rarely better because they don’t want to recognize their swing issues (they typically “add loft” aka fail to control low point) or do anything about them.

 

It’s pretty simple.  Golf is a game of hitting a ball with a stick.  To get better score, learn to do that better, whatever level you’re at.

[kcpark87]

The thing that helped me most is to become proficient with the driver to the point where it’s comfortable to continuously pull the driver on every par 4 or par 5 unless trouble e.g. water or bunker is in my typical carry range. 
 

getting comfortable hitting the driver even on short holes helped me from shooting low 80s to now in the 70s… a lot easier hitting GIR with a wedge vs a 8 iron.

Edited September 17, 2022 by kcpark87

[Goshdarnit]

To evaluate this and really know where to attack, I'd like to know club and ball speed.  If we have 110+ driver club speed than the game plan for breaking 78 more is way different than if you are only around 100 club speed and are going to have a hard time reaching 5's in 2, as well as truly being able to control your approach shots bc there isn't enough speed and spin to improve the proximity to the hole.  1 putt stat can be pretty misleading, that only matters if your giving yourself a lot of looks inside of 10-15 feet.  If your average approach shot is 30-40 feet from the hole the 1 putt percentage is going to be low, same could be said of the chipping, if the average short game shot is outside of 10 feet that 1 putt percentage will be skewed.