Do all pros use the bounce when chipping?

[Valtiel]

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Why not...the adjustment is no different than the adjustment made from hitting a bunker shot in a firm bunker to hitting one in a powder sugar bunker.  You probably shouldn't use a 60* wedge and should use less loft and your weigh distribution should move to be more 50/50 but the execution of the shot is still the same.  An amateur golfer in that situation for sure shouldn't be trying to hit one hop and stop shots from that position even on a good weather condition day unless forced to with that much room to use a PW or 9 iron and bump it onto the green and let it roll to the hole. You don't all of a sudden give up the technique to hit a bunker shot just because the bunker is softer you just make and adjustment and hitting a pitch shot from a soggy lie is no different. The bounce is still designed to prevent the club from digging and striking 1/2 inch to and inch behind the ball is still going to produce an acceptable result. 

But neither bunker techniques are applicable here since clean, ball first contact is what you need when dealing with problematic turf, whether that be wet or grabby. Tiger talks about that here:
 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

Bounce is your friend: 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

23 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

But neither bunker techniques are applicable here since clean, ball first contact is what you need when dealing with problematic turf, whether that be wet or grabby. Tiger talks about that here:
 

 

You can literally see him with the face wide open exposing the bounce of the club. Into the grain doesn't matter as much if you have enough bounce as the club will resist digging and try to keep the leading edge above the turf and then it is your job to keep the club moving through the shot.  With other problematic lies the club can't even get to the ball at all so you really need bounce and to keep the club moving to execute the shot.  Also the greatest golfer ever said his first instinct is to "bump the shot" onto the green instead of playing the hero shot unless he was forced to. Even he said it was a "scary shot." You are making my case for me so thanks for that!! 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[Valtiel]

43 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You can literally see him with the face wide open exposing the bounce of the club. Into the grain doesn't matter as much if you have enough bounce as the club will resist digging and try to keep the leading edge above the turf and then it is your job to keep the club moving through the shot.  With other problematic lies the club can't even get to the ball at all so you really need bounce and to keep the club moving to execute the shot.  Also the greatest golfer ever said his first instinct is to "bump the shot" onto the green instead of playing the hero shot unless he was forced to. Even he said it was a "scary shot." You are making my case for me so thanks for that!! 

I guess I don't understand what your case is then, because when Tiger says "bump it" he's still talking about a ball first bump and run shot through the grass, the high percentage play etc. I generally agree with the "use the bounce" concepts, but I don't understand this "no divots from ____ yardage otherwise they are poorly fit" part because we see that all the time, especially in wet conditions where even using the bounce correctly is going to result in healthy divots, as seen in the video you linked above. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Valtiel

[MountainKing]

4 hours ago, Valtiel said:

But neither bunker techniques are applicable here since clean, ball first contact is what you need when dealing with problematic turf, whether that be wet or grabby. Tiger talks about that here:
 

 

 

Tiger is wrong dude. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Double Mocha Man]

7 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Tiger is wrong dude. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

Do you remember when Tiger went through the pitching/chipping yips? He was chunking almost everything around the green, it was painful to watch.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:09 PM, Valtiel said:

I guess I don't understand what your case is then, because when Tiger says "bump it" he's still talking about a ball first bump and run shot through the grass, the high percentage play etc. I generally agree with the "use the bounce" concepts, but I don't understand this "no divots from ____ yardage otherwise they are poorly fit" part because we see that all the time, especially in wet conditions where even using the bounce correctly is going to result in healthy divots, as seen in the video you linked above. 

Previously in an earlier post I stated that you shouldn't be taking a footlong divot on a partial wedge shot and that you should be over clubbed and using the bounce which means that the shot will require less speed to execute and there is no reason to rip up  a foot long divot unless you are in a specialty situation and the shot requires you to hit a lofted club full out.  There is absolutely no reason that a 60 yard wedge shot being hit with a 56* or 52* degree wedge should rip up a foot long divot as that shot being struck with that loft simply does not require that much speed to execute.  And the speed required to execute shot is the same for everyone regardless of the percent of your max yardage 60 yards represents I'm sure most don't max out at 60 yards with 56* or 52* wedge. 

 

It is flawed thinking and strategy to say that since the conditions are wet that all of a sudden the leading edge should be used to hit partial wedge shots because by nature the leading edge digs and the trailing edge skids so obviously the trailing edge and bounce will become even more important in wet and soggy conditions.  Matter of fact most will talk about low bounce for firm conditions and high bounce for fluffy conditions yet here we are advising to strike ball first in soaking wet conditions and require even more precision from the golfer.  It simply doesn't make sense because you have to make a decision one way or the other prior to hitting the shot whether or not you are going to use the leading edge or the trailing edge and if you choose the leading edge then the bounce can't save you because you will have too much forward handle lean eliminating the bounce.  If you choose to use the bounce then this a completely different setup all together and you will begin to engage the turf just prior to striking the ball to ensure the leading edge gets below the equator of the ball so that you don't skull it.  Using the bounce, even in wet conditions, does not produce a divot because the club did not dig...it skidded over the surface of the of the ground thus if you used the bounce there is no divot to go pick up whereas if you use the leading edge and take a divot you will dig up a patch of turf that you could go retrieve.  Sure wet conditions will exaggerate the bruising of the turf by the trailing edge and the digging into the turf by the leading edge but using the bounce still does not produce a divot. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[EastTNGolfer]

17 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Previously in an earlier post I stated that you shouldn't be taking a footlong divot on a partial wedge shot and that you should be over clubbed and using the bounce which means that the shot will require less speed to execute and there is not reason to rip up  a foot long divot unless you are in a specialty situation and the shot requires you to hit a lofted club full out.  There is absolutely no reason that a 60 yard wedge shot being hit with a 56* or 52* degree wedge should rip up a foot long divot as that shot being struck with that loft simply does not require that much speed to execute.  And the speed required to execute shot is the same for everyone regardless of the percent of your max yardage 60 yards represents I'm sure most don't max out at 60 yards with 56* or 52* wedge. 

 

It is flawed thinking and strategy to say that since the conditions are wet that all of a sudden the leading edge should be used to hit partial wedge shots because by nature the leading edge digs and the trailing edge skids so obviously the trailing edge and bounce will become even more important in wet and soggy conditions.  Matter of fact most will talk about low bounce for firm conditions and high bounce for fluffy conditions yet here we are advising to strike ball first in soaking wet conditions and require even more precision from the golfer.  It simply doesn't make sense because you have to make a decision one way or the other prior to hitting the shot whether or not you are going to use the leading edge or the trailing edge and if you choose the leading edge then the bounce can't save you because you will have too much forward handle lean eliminating the bounce.  If you choose to use the bounce then this a completely different setup all together and you will begin to engage the turf just prior to striking the ball to ensure the leading edge gets below the equator of the ball so that you don't skull it.  Using the bounce, even in wet conditions, does not produce a divot because the club did not dig...it skidded over the surface of the of the ground thus if you used the bounce there is no divot to go pick up whereas if you use the leading edge and take a divot you will dig up a patch of turf that you could go retrieve.  Sure wet conditions will exaggerate the bruising of the turf by the trailing edge and the digging into the turf by the leading edge but using the bounce still does not produce a divot. 

You don't use the bounce on distance wedges. You are delofting the club on these shots.

[Righty to Lefty]

4 hours ago, EastTNGolfer said:

You don't use the bounce on distance wedges. You are delofting the club on these shots.

Please elaborate on exactly what yardage a "distance wedge" starts because you state this as if all of a sudden there is a magic yardage that shifts to a "distance" yardage.  I understand what you are trying to infer but you are incorrect.  You can absolutely use the bounce on a wedge until which point the distance of the shot requires too large of a percentage of your max carry yardage.  I hit 55* wedge 120 yards therefore I can afford to open the face and expose the bounce of the club, though progressively less, at 60,70,80, 90, and 100 yards for instance because it is not a full shot.  Those yardages are not "distance wedge" yardages for me and are still partial shots therefore I can still engage the bounce of the club.  You are trying to make it sound like there is a yardage where all golfers must all of a sudden used the leading edge when it will be variable for each golfer depending on the yardage that they hit a given club and that is simply not correct because it will not be true for all golfers. 

[EastTNGolfer]

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Please elaborate on exactly what yardage a "distance wedge" starts because you state this as if all of a sudden there is a magic yardage that shifts to a "distance" yardage.  I understand what you are trying to infer but you are incorrect.  You can absolutely use the bounce on a wedge until which point the distance of the shot requires too large of a percentage of your max carry yardage.  I hit 55* wedge 120 yards therefore I can afford to open the face and expose the bounce of the club, though progressively less, at 60,70,80, 90, and 100 yards for instance because it is not a full shot.  Those yardages are not "distance wedge" yardages for me and are still partial shots therefore I can still engage the bounce of the club.  You are trying to make it sound like there is a yardage where all golfers must all of a sudden used the leading edge when it will be variable for each golfer depending on the yardage that they hit a given club and that is simply not correct because it will not be true for all golfers. 

 

It's to the point now that I have to just post the same exact stuff I have already posted in this thread because you refuse to watch or read and wrongly assume you are correct.

 

Seickmann:

"To maximize control and consistency in varying conditions, the best distance wedge players typically “flight” the ball down a bit while creating enough spin to stop it quickly on the green despite the lower trajectory. This is done by using the correct kinematic sequence to produce power, properly delivering the club into the ball, and creating sufficient clubhead speed and friction between the clubface and the ball. You need sharp grooves and a clean lie to create maximum spin, which is why professional players change wedges each year. (Take note and consider doing likewise when the groove edges start to become noticeably worn.)
It’s intuitive that more loft and more speed creates more spin, but how do you flight a lofted wedge? Remember that as the goals pertaining to the use of the club change, so does the technique. If you used your finesse sequence on a shot from 75 yards, not only would it be next to impossible to hit a lofted club that far, that movement would produce an extremely high ball flight that would be at the mercy of the vagaries of the wind. A stronger, more penetrating flight is more effective. To accomplish this, slightly deloft the club at impact by having the handle lead the clubhead through the ball. A power sequence and the proper blend of both lateral and rotary motion from your body in the downswing are necessary to deliver the club this way. The lateral shift not only moves the low point of your swing arc forward, but buys time for you to swing the handle back down in front of your body, which is key to getting the shaft to lean slightly forward at impact.
This is essentially the first phase of the downswing. The second phase is the rotary motion of the body through impact and the continuation of the arm swing. This motion creates what I call “verticals” in your swing. Think about the club’s interaction with the turf for a minute: Your hands are ahead at impact and your weight is moving into your lead leg. It seems like this arrangement has created the potential for you to “dig a trench” with your wedge, and although taking a small divot is fine, this isn’t what you see on TV. Why? When your body rotates in the second phase of the downswing, two things happen: 1) your lead leg begins to straighten (upward movement) as the hip turns back over the lead heel; and 2) the handle of the club ever so slightly follows suit as the lead shoulder rotates up and back around your head. Both of these verticals shallow your angle attack, allowing you to have your hands ahead of the clubhead at impact and your swing center forward without being too steep and digging a trench. Essentially, you’ve paired two steepening elements (stacked backswing and lateral downswing shift) with the two shallowing elements embedded in the verticals. The net effect is perfect contact and a controlled ball flight."

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by EastTNGolfer

[GolfTurkey]

Reading this thread is starting to give me this feeling:

 

[Righty to Lefty]

3 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Reading this thread is starting to give me this feeling:

 

Reading this thread should make you go out and test and figure out for yourself and you actually should welcome the back and forth because it should actually make you think about things at a deeper level which will lead to improvement.   You think this is the first time that I have ran into someone doing what @EastTNGolferis doing? He acts as if I am not reading and interpreting his posts when he fails to realize that I used to play the game the way that Seikmann is describing when I played right handed and found a better more consistent way when I switched over to lefty.  That is why my handle is "Righty to Lefty." He makes it seem like I am not reading his posts when not only did I read them, I have lived them in the past.  He didn't quickly run out to the range and video himself trying the technique described, he just wrote it off as false without going to find out for himself because he just wants to be right at this point because if he did he would have said as much by now. It doesn't matter that I put up video of the exact engineers that designed the clubs that we are discussing in the thread stating the proper way to use their equipment designs because he then resorted to personal attacks on them also just like he did to me. 

 

I posted unassociated pros demonstrating the shot in the worst of conditions still using the bounce but it doesn't matter because. I am not trying to convince @EastTNGolferbecause it won't matter how much info he is presented with he just wants to be right, I am posting for those that never even realized that you are supposed to engage the turf on partial wedge shots.  If you aren't going out and testing and reporting back your findings then you are doing your own game a disservice and slowing your progress.  I stated that the reason why I even have a video of me hitting the same shot that I am describing is because I was losing my mind trying to strike partial wedge shots ball first until a saw a former touring pro execute the shot and thump the ground before the ball.  I thought he hit it fat, but he didn't react like he did and then I noticed he did it over and over. He was doing it on purpose and l later found out that his how the vast majority of those shots should be played. I encourage you to test and report back as I feel it will be very eye opening I assure you. R to L

[GolfTurkey]

40 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Reading this thread should make you go out and test and figure out for yourself and you actually should welcome the back and forth because it should actually make you think about things at a deeper level which will lead to improvement.   You think this is the first time that I have ran into someone doing what @EastTNGolferis doing? He acts as if I am not reading and interpreting his posts when he fails to realize that I used to play the game the way that Seikmann is describing when I played right handed and found a better more consistent way when I switched over to lefty.  That is why my handle is "Righty to Lefty." He makes it seem like I am not reading his posts when not only did I read them, I have lived them in the past.  He didn't quickly run out to the range and video himself trying the technique described, he just wrote it off as false without going to find out for himself because he just wants to be right at this point because if he did he would have said as much by now. It doesn't matter that I put up video of the exact engineers that designed the clubs that we are discussing in the thread stating the proper way to use their equipment designs because he then resorted to personal attacks on them also just like he did to me. 

 

I posted unassociated pros demonstrating the shot in the worst of conditions still using the bounce but it doesn't matter because. I am not trying to convince @EastTNGolferbecause it won't matter how much info he is presented with he just wants to be right, I am posting for those that never even realized that you are supposed to engage the turf on partial wedge shots.  If you aren't going out and testing and reporting back your findings then you are doing your own game a disservice and slowing your progress.  I stated that the reason why I even have a video of me hitting the same shot that I am describing is because I was losing my mind trying to strike partial wedge shots ball first until a saw a former touring pro execute the shot and thump the ground before the ball.  I thought he hit it fat, but he didn't react like he did and then I noticed he did it over and over. He was doing it on purpose and l later found out that his how the vast majority of those shots should be played. I encourage you to test and report back as I feel it will be very eye opening I assure you. R to L

You read a lot into that picture!
 

I may have my views of the preferred or ideal technique, but in my case what I do is determined wholly by what works best on the course wrt the yips.

 

Around the practice green I can mimic multiple techniques with good proficiency (and to the satisfaction of instructors) and then go out on the course with that technique and yip up a storm. 
 

Through trial and error and some logical thought I have settled on a far from pretty technique that would not be my first preference if I could choose. However,  I yip less often, the yip spasm is less severe when it occurs and I can usually get a serviceable result even when I yip.

Edited August 15, 2022 by GolfTurkey

[Righty to Lefty]

100% agree with your statement and that is what I encourage all golfers to do as you did and go out and test and figure out what works best from them even while feeling pressure or feeling fatigued etc. But that athlete should also understand that regardless we are still all subject to the exact same rules at impact no matter how it looks visually to get there.  The most important factor is having the ability to "relentlessly repeat" which is the most important trademark of a good golfer in my opinion. Pros, mostly the male touring pros, often do things in a less efficient manner, but that doesn't mean that they are doing it wrong.  It's just they haven't been punished yet for doing things in an inefficient manner.  I assure you if it was found out that more and more men on the tour were hitting up on driver and beginning to dominate the tour because of the extra yardage, all the others would get inline and adjust accordingly. I am blown away that it is even being argued that using the leading edge is a better technique than using the bounce of the club as it was designed which gives the golfer margin for error.  I would be completely okay with any golfer saying look I know it isn't the most efficient way to do it but I chose to do it this way because of exactly the reason you said in your post of your given technique makes you "yip less" but that would show an understanding and a choice to sacrifice performance, no different than male pros hitting down on driver, whereas most female tour pros simply don't have enough speed to even think about hitting down on driver and giving up yardage.  A lot of things that pros do many of us simply aren't physically capable of doing however using the bounce on a partial wedge shot is not one of those things in my opinion. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[dap]

I can’t speak for all pros but Justin Rose said Seve Ballesteros chipped by deliberately hitting 3 inches behind the ball. 

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

19 hours ago, dap said:

I can’t speak for all pros but Justin Rose said Seve Ballesteros chipped by deliberately hitting 3 inches behind the ball. 

 

 

Love that demonstration on that last shot where he is demonstrates how light the grip pressure should be as that is often where I get in trouble sometimes is unknowingly gripping the club too tight when it isn't necessary for the given shot.  

[glk]

Using the bounce is over rated.   Especially in bunkers.   Lol.     https://www.instagram.com/p/ChPYSJCjIm5/?hl=en

 

 

[DavePelz4]

This might be shocking from my screen name, however I've made the change to using the bounce on chips and my consistency has increased dramatically. Have holed more chips since doing that than the previous few years.  Holing a chip e/o round since starting 2 months ago.

 

Thought about changing the screen name but Bounce4 just doesn't fit.