Beginner with Player Irons

[CasualLie]

FWIW, as a guy who used to love having a set of blades (and this had nothing to do with Tiger) from Japan, or the Hoffman Titleist forgings...clearly I was going after aesthetics and while I had more swing speed in my younger years, I was not breaking 80 every time out.  I even thought I was "smart guy" and was doing blended sets long before OEMs sold them.  Any dummy can hit 7-PW blades, right?  Still, rarely broke 80, and I learned, what a shock, in a round of golf, you hardly ever hit 3 - 6 iron!

 

Before TM Burner Irons first came out, a friend working at TM sent me a set to "beta test".  At the time, my regular set was Cally X Forged, and I was getting better maintaining a 5-6 hcp.  The Burners were stupid easy to hit, kind of fun, and went a long, long way.  I was so tempted to put them in the bag, but I couldn't work out how would I do the wedges???  The PW was going 145+, so what would I do if I needed 110? or 120?  I wasn't going to go matching set gap wedge as they were too clunky, kind of like using matching set SW.  Why?  So I gave up on the idea.

 

I have never regularly played true GI irons, I got better with Cally X forged in the bag for years, then moved onto Titleist AP2/T100, but now settled on PXG Gen 4Ts.  So yes, you can get better, learn to hit shots with somewhat forgiving, advanced material irons.    You don't have to go full on GI, but don't make it hard on yourself going tiny clubs either.

 

Another anecdote...I have played a ton of tournaments this year, a lot of matches...came across ~ 20 guys with blades, they were all terrible, and at best shooting high 80s.  It wasn't so much the blades, the complete game was a mess.  But even when they hit a decent tee shot, they missed the green.  Par 3s over 170, missed the green a lot...they just are not forgiving enough for the occasional player.  

 

I still like aesthetics.  I tested the new PXG blades.  Wow those are nice, feel great, but they are small, not forgiving at all.  Soles are thin.  I don't worry about heel to toe length, in fact, I would support any argument smaller is better, but thin soles...you better be on your game.

 

[MattC555]

Sure, you can learn with players irons.  I'd recommend blending something.  The Srixon ZX line or Mizuno's Pro line would be my choice.  Say PW-7 iron in ZX7, then 6-5 iron in ZX5. 

[MelloYello]

21 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Since it appears (and I don't remember your stance on other threads on the subject) that you don't agree on the forgiveness benefits of the different iron types, there's really no point in talking about the player's swing; at least not here on a "beginner's" thread.

 

I fear we've all fallen for the trojan horse scheme,,,,,,,, yet again,,,,,,,,,, just another blades vs. CB thread.

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's beating a dead horse at all. I think when we can share our own experiences that's more like furthering the conversation. And I think helps beginners a lot. Anytime we can shield people from hyperbole and exaggeration it's a good thing. 

 

After all, how can people be so confident about equipment when there's no uniform agreement on what matters and to what extent and history is filled with such massive evolutionary change? There's a huge information gap out there. I think it's important to share experiences and not just opinions. 

 

It makes we wonder about the actual purpose of forums like this when there's so obviously room to share and add our own data and yet people really don't seem interested in that. It's as if the argument is more important than sharing our own information to help further things along. 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

Golf approach data is largely driven by variations in strike that are the result of path and face angle. Those things will dictate how bad the miss is far more than any CBs ability to offset the mistake, right? 

 

... I think you are putting the cart before the horse, that has been beaten to death. 🤪  Of course strike quality is more important than what type of iron you are using. Tiger's miss and my miss are both marginal for our individual swings but relative because my miss is more pronounced. I need the forgiveness inherent in a PI vs MB while Tigers miss is one of my perfectly acceptable shots. And the point I make over and over again is better players can have rounds where they don't miss by much and iron choice is irrelevant, but when they have rounds where they do miss, the forgiveness inherent in the iron design can mean a stroke. And for me and virtually the entire LPGA and many on the PGA, one stroke a round is worth more than thinking my irons look cool. Hard to find a better ball striker than Will Zalatoris that played T100 because as he said, that one miss can be the difference in winning and coming in 2nd place. 


 

 

[CasualLie]

23 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I don't think it's beating a dead horse at all. I think when we can share our own experiences that's more like furthering the conversation. And I think helps beginners a lot. Anytime we can shield people from hyperbole and exaggeration it's a good thing. 

 

After all, how can people be so confident about equipment when there's no uniform agreement on what matters and to what extent and history is filled with such massive evolutionary change? There's a huge information gap out there. I think it's important to share experiences and not just opinions. 

 

It makes we wonder about the actual purpose of forums like this when there's so obviously room to share and add our own data and yet people really don't seem interested in that. It's as if the argument is more important than sharing our own information to help further things along. 

 

Very well put...

 

Especially for beginners amd/or high handicappers, I honestly do not know how they can get better from forums with so much information.  YouTube?  The amount of conflicting / out of context / poor explained content is endless.

 

If anything, this forum is very short on "experiences".  The more specific the better.  

 

I guarantee the learning curve / time to productivity is a lot shorter for a beginner vs my own journey if they don't follow my path but instead keep it a lot more simple.  

 

 

[nsxguy]

32 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I don't think it's beating a dead horse at all. I think when we can share our own experiences that's more like furthering the conversation. And I think helps beginners a lot. Anytime we can shield people from hyperbole and exaggeration it's a good thing. 

 

After all, how can people be so confident about equipment when there's no uniform agreement on what matters and to what extent and history is filled with such massive evolutionary change? There's a huge information gap out there. I think it's important to share experiences and not just opinions. 

 

It makes we wonder about the actual purpose of forums like this when there's so obviously room to share and add our own data and yet people really don't seem interested in that. It's as if the argument is more important than sharing our own information to help further things along. 

 

Of course it's important to share experience and offer opinions but the subject has been beaten to death (Well, OK, apparently not).

 

These SAME discussions are started almost weekly and nobody ever seems to change their mind.

 

One could search CB/blades/GI/whatever and read threads for a month on here.

 

That's why an awful lot of posters do NOT contribute and just ignore these threads,,,,,,,,,, which I'll try to go back to doing now.

 

I say "try to" because it's like a car wreck. You don't want to look but you often just can't help it. 🤦‍♀️

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

These SAME discussions are started almost weekly and nobody ever seems to change their mind.

 

One could search CB/blades/GI/whatever and read threads for a month on here.

 

That's why an awful lot of posters do NOT contribute and just ignore these threads,,,,,,,,,, which I'll try to go back to doing now.

 

I say "try to" because it's like a car wreck. You don't want to look but you often just can't help it. 🤦‍♀️

 

 

... I never look at car wrecks because I don't want to see others misfortunes and worst case, seeing someone mangled or dead. But ya never know what new member might be looking at these threads. I don't respond to all, especially the I love MB's because my opinion isn't needed (or wanted). Obviously there is nothing wrong with loving MB's. And I know some get tired of me bringing up the LPGA but the ladies are better ball strikers than 99.9% of the posters on WRX and they play Players Irons, CB's and even GI's because their livelihood depends on their performance. 

... It reminds me of one of my equipment pet peeves and something I only see on golf forums, never on the course. How turf interaction makes an iron unplayable. I have never hit an iron that performs differently based on turf interaction. It is about feel, not performance. After all with a proper swing the leading edge is making contact with the ground after the ball is long gone so turf interaction makes zero difference in performance. Yes, on a manicured fairway and soft conditions I like to say some thin soled MB's go through the ground like a scapel and others like a PDI go through the ground like a butter knife but they both go through the ground OK and have no effect on the shot. But I digress and am not looking to crash my Turf EV into the MB for beginners wreck. 

[North Butte]

43 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... I never look at car wrecks because I don't want to see others misfortunes and worst case, seeing someone mangled or dead. But ya never know what new member might be looking at these threads. I don't respond to all, especially the I love MB's because my opinion isn't needed (or wanted). Obviously there is nothing wrong with loving MB's. And I know some get tired of me bringing up the LPGA but the ladies are better ball strikers than 99.9% of the posters on WRX and they play Players Irons, CB's and even GI's because their livelihood depends on their performance. 

... It reminds me of one of my equipment pet peeves and something I only see on golf forums, never on the course. How turf interaction makes an iron unplayable. I have never hit an iron that performs differently based on turf interaction. It is about feel, not performance. After all with a proper swing the leading edge is making contact with the ground after the ball is long gone so turf interaction makes zero difference in performance. Yes, on a manicured fairway and soft conditions I like to say some thin soled MB's go through the ground like a scapel and others like a PDI go through the ground like a butter knife but they both go through the ground OK and have no effect on the shot. But I digress and am not looking to crash my Turf EV into the MB for beginners wreck. 

Well they have no effect on THAT shot but after about your third knuckle-busting hammer blow to the hands with some serious digging you will absolutely start swinging different. At some point self preservation kicks in. 

 

Like Mike Tyson said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. 

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... I think you are putting the cart before the horse, that has been beaten to death. 🤪  Of course strike quality is more important than what type of iron you are using. Tiger's miss and my miss are both marginal for our individual swings but relative because my miss is more pronounced. I need the forgiveness inherent in a PI vs MB while Tigers miss is one of my perfectly acceptable shots. And the point I make over and over again is better players can have rounds where they don't miss by much and iron choice is irrelevant, but when they have rounds where they do miss, the forgiveness inherent in the iron design can mean a stroke. And for me and virtually the entire LPGA and many on the PGA, one stroke a round is worth more than thinking my irons look cool. Hard to find a better ball striker than Will Zalatoris that played T100 because as he said, that one miss can be the difference in winning and coming in 2nd place. 

 

I don't get the point here, sorry. 

 

I'm obviously not suggesting everyone should be playing a MB, in fact, I'm not advocating anyone should, LOL. So I guess at best you're just preaching to the choir? 

 

I explicitly started out by acknowledging my current irons (my favorite set to date) have been noticeably more playable (i.e. forgiving) compared with the MBs and PCBs I'd previously experienced from a slew of manufacturers. 

 

As I said to NSX just now, I try to avoid this tendency towards the combative. I love irons in general, especially forged irons. I think there are a ton of cool options on the market from MBs to PCBs to PDIs. Forgive me if I enjoy talking about the pro's and con's to the various types. 

[Chunkitgood]

2 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

I don't think it's beating a dead horse at all. I think when we can share our own experiences that's more like furthering the conversation. And I think helps beginners a lot. Anytime we can shield people from hyperbole and exaggeration it's a good thing. 

 

After all, how can people be so confident about equipment when there's no uniform agreement on what matters and to what extent and history is filled with such massive evolutionary change? There's a huge information gap out there. I think it's important to share experiences and not just opinions. 

 

It makes we wonder about the actual purpose of forums like this when there's so obviously room to share and add our own data and yet people really don't seem interested in that. It's as if the argument is more important than sharing our own information to help further things along. 

To share somewhat my experience and thoughts (actually rather strong opinions) as someone who played consistently with a typical amateur arm swing until I got old and had to learn to hit the ball properly:

 

You cannot learn without feedback.  In learning something all the feed back you can possibly get is good.  A club that allows you to hit balls that look respectable with a poor strike will make it harder to learn and worse you will learn a bad swing.

 

That is exactly what the vast majority of people have done, learn a bad swing to the point it is consistent, even a lot of golfers who shoot pretty good scores but can never seem to improve from there.

 

You can learn a bad swing with modern blades, I did it myself with some MP33’s (modern enough compared to earlier blades). You can learn a good swing with SGI clubs.  But you have to figure out what a good swing is, and how to do it, which is something of a challenge given the state of confusing opinions.  And then be able to tell whether you are doing it (that whole feedback thing).  But again my experience is that it can be done.

 

The biggest risk in golf however is the risk of “grooving” a bad swing.

 

The harder your clubs are to hit, the less that risk.  Simple as that.  My experience with real old-fashioned blades was pretty simple: I could not get them in the air, every shot was a ground ball. I gave up on the and got some cavity backs.  Miraculously I started hitting balls in the air…by hitting up on them, which is the prime swing fault of approximately 95% of golfers.  I wish I had kept on and learned to hit the blades.

 

Granted with hard to hit clubs there is a risk you will never learn to swing properly, or even get as good results as you would with GI clubs, ever.  There is no reward without risk.

GI clubs are IMO designed to let poor strikers get away with hitting the ground before the ball.  You don’t have to hit the ground first with them, but you can, and you will still get some of that easy launch and distance they promise.

 

It’s easy enough to tell the difference between a good strike and a poor one…but only if you have learned what a good one feels and looks like by first learning how to hit one.

 

If your clubs have enough “game improvement” built in, you may never know.

 

All of which is to say your equipment doesn’t matter much…if you are willing and able learn what a good swing is and not be fooled into thinking you have one when you don’t.

 

Actually playing is another matter.  Here the problem is people want to play before they learn how.  If you know how to play, you can use any clubs that you like.  If you play before you know how to play, see above about grooving a poor swing.

 

Now, the problem with saying “I don’t want to be an expert, I just want to have some fun hitting acceptable shots now” is that a lot of people don’t feel that way after a while.  The fun ends and the frustration begins, and that grooved swing is hard to change, much harder than learning the good swing to start with.

 

So, take whatever clubs you already have, stop thinking about equipment, stop playing (!?), and use those clubs to learn to hit the ball properly.

 

Then worry about clubs.  Or not.

[North Butte]

OK, now we have officially come full circle to the same old, same tired talking points as every one of the 100 other threads featuring...

 

"Blades will force you to hit the ball better OR ELSE"

versus

"Play the biggest clubs you can stand to look at"

 

Back and forth for 20 pages until it either burns itself out or gets closed down.  

[North Butte]

4 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

To share somewhat my experience and thoughts (actually rather strong opinions) as someone who played consistently with a typical amateur arm swing until I got old and had to learn to hit the ball properly:

 

You cannot learn without feedback.  In learning something all the feed back you can possibly get is good.  A club that allows you to hit balls that look respectable with a poor strike will make it harder to learn and worse you will learn a bad swing.

 

That is exactly what the vast majority of people have done, learn a bad swing to the point it is consistent, even a lot of golfers who shoot pretty good scores but can never seem to improve from there.

 

You can learn a bad swing with modern blades, I did it myself with some MP33’s (modern enough compared to earlier blades). You can learn a good swing with SGI clubs.  But you have to figure out what a good swing is, and how to do it, which is something of a challenge given the state of confusing opinions.  And then be able to tell whether you are doing it (that whole feedback thing).  But again my experience is that it can be done.

 

The biggest risk in golf however is the risk of “grooving” a bad swing.

 

The harder your clubs are to hit, the less that risk.  Simple as that.  My experience with real old-fashioned blades was pretty simple: I could not get them in the air, every shot was a ground ball. I gave up on the and got some cavity backs.  Miraculously I started hitting balls in the air…by hitting up on them, which is the prime swing fault of approximately 95% of golfers.  I wish I had kept on and learned to hit the blades.

 

Granted with hard to hit clubs there is a risk you will never learn to swing properly, or even get as good results as you would with GI clubs, ever.  There is no reward without risk.

GI clubs are IMO designed to let poor strikers get away with hitting the ground before the ball.  You don’t have to hit the ground first with them, but you can, and you will still get some of that easy launch and distance they promise.

 

It’s easy enough to tell the difference between a good strike and a poor one…but only if you have learned what a good one feels and looks like by first learning how to hit one.

 

If your clubs have enough “game improvement” built in, you may never know.

 

All of which is to say your equipment doesn’t matter much…if you are willing and able learn what a good swing is and not be fooled into thinking you have one when you don’t.

 

Actually playing is another matter.  Here the problem is people want to play before they learn how.  If you know how to play, you can use any clubs that you like.  If you play before you know how to play, see above about grooving a poor swing.

 

Now, the problem with saying “I don’t want to be an expert, I just want to have some fun hitting acceptable shots now” is that a lot of people don’t feel that way after a while.  The fun ends and the frustration begins, and that grooved swing is hard to change, much harder than learning the good swing to start with.

 

So, take whatever clubs you already have, stop thinking about equipment, stop playing (!?), and use those clubs to learn to hit the ball properly.

 

Then worry about clubs.  Or not.

I suppose when you were 5 years old your parents put you on a full sized 10-speed bike with no training wheels. Then you might fall off the first couple hundred times you try to ride it but eventually you'll learn to ride properly. Training wheels just let kids develop bad bike-riding habits and pretend they actually know how to ride.

[MelloYello]

27 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I suppose when you were 5 years old your parents put you on a full sized 10-speed bike with no training wheels. Then you might fall off the first couple hundred times you try to ride it but eventually you'll learn to ride properly. Training wheels just let kids develop bad bike-riding habits and pretend they actually know how to ride.

 

FWIW, I whole-heartedly agree with your point here. 

 

Smaller irons (be they MBs or PCBs) do not teach players good habits. They simply punish mistakes more dramatically. 

 

To that end, I again go back to a point I made earlier >> a motivated student is always the best student. 

 

How good someone becomes is a function of their curiosity, drive and practice habits. The clubs really don't have much to do with it. I think the point @chisag and others have made (which I agree with) is that PDIs and PCBs offer as much aesthetic appeal and workability as good players need. Blades are overkill and in most cases only hurt.

 

I would agree with exception of the Srixon Z-Forged. 😁

 

Here's a photo of a Titleist AP2 6i alongside a Srixon Z-Forged "blade." I wonder how many people can tell which is which. 🙂

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by MelloYello

[chisag]

4 hours ago, MelloYello said:

So I guess at best you're just preaching to the choir? 

 

 

... LOL, yes basically doing exactly that. 

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

If the thread topics offend you, it's easy to ignore them. We don't make driver discussion off-limits and we don't consider it out-of-bounds to discuss mallet-vs-blade putters, so I don't see why people have to refrain from discussing irons of differing size/design.

 

I'm not offended at all; just a bit annoyed at seeing the same old, same old, all the time.

 

I actually DO ignore them,,,,,,,, more often than not.

 

I'd have thought a smart guy like yourself would've caught that when I said, which btw, you quoted "That's why an awful lot of posters do NOT contribute and just ignore these threads,,,,,,,,,, which I'll try to go back to doing now".

 

Maybe I gave you too much credit ? Or were you just trying to pull me in again ? Congrats if you were.

 

And "we don't make driver,,,,,, and  mallet vs blade putters discussion out of bounds" ??? "We" ? Did you become management at some point and I didn't notice ?

 

 

 

[Justin_Golf]

When I was a kid I learned to play with blades from a garage sale. This was in the late 90's, so there was no reason I couldn't have found a cheap set of GI irons, but I had no idea about clubs at that time. I got pretty good at striking a very intimidating 2-iron, which had a face about the same size as the ball lol... but it took YEARS. 

 

I haven't used blades since I was 18/19. I only practice a few times per week and play once every few weeks... it's just not enough time to be consistent with them. I think the amount you practice matters a lot. If it's only a few hours per week, play something more forgiving. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Justin_Golf

[betarhoalphadelta]

23 hours ago, North Butte said:

I suppose when you were 5 years old your parents put you on a full sized 10-speed bike with no training wheels. Then you might fall off the first couple hundred times you try to ride it but eventually you'll learn to ride properly. Training wheels just let kids develop bad bike-riding habits and pretend they actually know how to ride.

 

You make a great point, but not the one you intend. 

 

You'd never just throw a kid on a bike, walk away, and expect them to "figure it out". You'd be called a neglectful parent if you tried to do something like that, and your kid would probably end up with broken bones and deep-seated anger and anxiety issues as an adult, and would probably have sworn of learning to ride a bike. A few might have been determined and make it through, but most would fail. 

 

The right way to teach a kid how to ride a bike is to be there with them every step of the way. There will be a progression from practicing basic skills through more complicated things. The best day is the one where you are pushing them from behind and let go of the seat and they can just do it. Then they have to figure out how to start from a stopped position w/o falling. Eventually they get to a point where they can ride a bike. For my son it was a tricycle (steering/pedaling) and a balance bike (balance w/o pedaling), and he progressed from a 2-wheeler w/ training wheels to taking them off in a matter of a few days. But it was successful because I was teaching him, not because of the training wheels or not. 

 

The way most golfers pick up the game is grab some clubs and go to the range (or the course) with a buddy that has about as much practical knowledge of the golf swing as a 4 year old has for riding a 10-speed. And the player develops terrible habits and then after ingraining all those bad habits MIGHT go to a coach for instruction to try to fix them. A FEW of those players might actually succeed in developing a functional golf swing, over time, but a lot of the rest will just walk away and say "golf is stupid; why would I do that". Or worse, they'd crowd up our public courses shooting 130 over the span of 5.5 hours while drinking 18 beers.

 

The right way to learn the game of golf is with a competent instructor who can teach the basic concepts and work through a progression of learning the golf swing from setup/address to impact and be there with you every step of the way. When they see the player doing something wrong, they immediately correct it. The player starts by building good habits and then can tweak them down the road as they progress. Under proper instruction, a player can learn on blades, or CBs, or GI, and then once they have the basics down can choose the level of forgiveness and the style of irons they want to play. 

 

 

The bike doesn't make a rider and the clubs don't make a golf swing. 

 

[MelloYello]

20 hours ago, Justin_Golf said:

When I was a kid I learned to play with blades from a garage sale. This was in the late 90's, so there was no reason I couldn't have found a cheap set of GI irons, but I had no idea about clubs at that time. I got pretty good at striking a very intimidating 2-iron, which had a face about the same size as the ball lol... but it took YEARS. 

 

I haven't used blades since I was 18/19. I only practice a few times per week and play once every few weeks... it's just not enough time to be consistent with them. I think the amount you practice matters a lot. If it's only a few hours per week, play something more forgiving. 

 

That's also been my experience.

 

If one is practicing on a regular basis (virtually every day) the demands of the equipment are far less a concern than if they're trying to manage a more recreational approach. 

 

That said, it's also true that if someone is practicing every day, they probably take golf seriously enough that they'd want every advantage that comes from being properly fit, too. 🙂

[jda]

Back when podcasts just started, some statistical and research company had one on golf with some pretty decent sample sizes of like 1000.  People who played clubs where they "wanted to be" rather than "where they are" got better at a much higher rate.  Another group who played/competed without a handicap dropped more strokes than people who played/competed with a handicap, also at a much high rate.  Some of this was likely mindset, but this matter more than equipment, innit?

 

I tried to look for this podcast to no avail, but is was something like the Freakanomics feed, or the like.  ...maybe This American Life?  This is going to kill me...

 

If you want to get better, do what better players do.  If you want to have fun, then do whatever makes you happy.  The good thing about modern golf is that there are probably clubs that can do both.  Only you can decide what is right for you.

 

I learned how to ride a bike the old fashioned way... all of the kids in our neighborhood ran along side you and decided when to let go of the seat.  Then they all laughed if you fell, dusted you off and tried again.  They also cheered when you made it.  As soon as you could ride, you learned how to jump and do wheelies.  I cannot remember anybody failing.  Trial by fire, but with all of the support that you could ever want... probably not a bad way to learn golf either.

[North Butte]

12 hours ago, jda said:

Back when podcasts just started, some statistical and research company had one on golf with some pretty decent sample sizes of like 1000.  People who played clubs where they "wanted to be" rather than "where they are" got better at a much higher rate.  Another group who played/competed without a handicap dropped more strokes than people who played/competed with a handicap, also at a much high rate.  Some of this was likely mindset, but this matter more than equipment, innit?

Look up the term "selection bias" some time when you have a few minutes to spare.

[betarhoalphadelta]

13 hours ago, jda said:

Back when podcasts just started, some statistical and research company had one on golf with some pretty decent sample sizes of like 1000.  People who played clubs where they "wanted to be" rather than "where they are" got better at a much higher rate.  Another group who played/competed without a handicap dropped more strokes than people who played/competed with a handicap, also at a much high rate.  Some of this was likely mindset, but this matter more than equipment, innit?

 

I tried to look for this podcast to no avail, but is was something like the Freakanomics feed, or the like.  ...maybe This American Life?  This is going to kill me...

 

 

There was an interesting study I read about a few years back as well. They were looking at college choices and trying to correlate that to career earnings. Obviously Harvard grads make more than Directional State U in most cases, but oddly, there was a clear and unintuitive point where the actual highest correlation was. 

 

The highest correlation between career earnings and college was the level of colleges that a student applied to.  

 

It wasn't what school you went to. It wasn't even what schools accepted you. If you were confident enough in yourself to apply to Harvard and all the other Ivies, fail to get in, and end up at Directional State U, chances were you were going to end up with career earnings similar to those of Ivy League grads. 

 

As @North Butte says, this is selection bias at work. Two people who are equally aspirational, one learning to play on CBs and the other on GIs, will likely progress at the same rate. But on average, the people who want to learn to play on CBs are more aspirational than those who choose to learn on GIs. So you'll see a statistical difference across a group. That doesn't mean that learning on CBs is a better choice. 

[MelloYello]

45 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

There was an interesting study I read about a few years back as well. They were looking at college choices and trying to correlate that to career earnings. Obviously Harvard grads make more than Directional State U in most cases, but oddly, there was a clear and unintuitive point where the actual highest correlation was. 

 

The highest correlation between career earnings and college was the level of colleges that a student applied to.  

 

It wasn't what school you went to. It wasn't even what schools accepted you. If you were confident enough in yourself to apply to Harvard and all the other Ivies, fail to get in, and end up at Directional State U, chances were you were going to end up with career earnings similar to those of Ivy League grads. 

 

As @North Butte says, this is selection bias at work. Two people who are equally aspirational, one learning to play on CBs and the other on GIs, will likely progress at the same rate. But on average, the people who want to learn to play on CBs are more aspirational than those who choose to learn on GIs. So you'll see a statistical difference across a group. That doesn't mean that learning on CBs is a better choice. 

 

Man, that might be the most insightful thing I've read on here in awhile. Great post! 🙂

 

 

It definitely jives with my experiences. I started on blades and was obsessed with learning how to swing the club when I started. There was something unique (and certainly valuable) in that obsession. 

 

There's a lot to be said for being able to enjoy the game as a 5-, 10- or 20-handicap. To some extent, happiness and contentment should be the goal, right? 

 

But I think some are wired to aim for skill. That can certainly have negative mental ramifications. To that extent, I always wanted to be better. And I'm not sure there's really ever going to be a point where I'm truly at peace and honestly "happy" just playing. When I play poorly it's safe to say I do not enjoy golf. 

 

Has golf made me a happier person? Has the pursuit of improvement made my golf journey a good one? 

 

I really can't say it has as though that were a fact. Maybe it has? I just know for that me personally, it's the only way I could approach it. If I weren't trying to be better I probably wouldn't do it. I don't know that I like golf as much as I like the idea of improving at golf if that makes any sense.  

 

IDK, it's a deep question, but I agree with your point. Aspiration is certainly a huge part of what separates golfers. 

 

.

Edited November 10, 2022 by MelloYello

[chigolfer1]

as others have said, this won't make you a better golfer, it will just make you a worse golfer than you needed to be as a beginner.   Granted, I can see not wanting to play with super game improvement "shovels" but, heck, even many pros do not use MB type blades

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by chigolfer1

[North Butte]

31 minutes ago, chigolfer1 said:

as others have said, this won't make you a better golfer, it will just make you a worse golfer than you needed to be as a beginner.   Granted, I can see not wanting to play with super game improvement "shovels" but, heck, even many pros do not use MB type blades

This is really not quite on topic but as a total beginner (i.e. the first time I ever set foot on a golf course) I tagged along with a friend who was going to play nine holes at a nearby public course. While he was signing in I wandered around the pro shop and saw a set of Titleist DCI irons. He came over and said, "Wow, those are some great looking clubs". 

 

So of course my first set of irons were Titleist DCI. Now it's three decades later and I've club ho'd everything from a super dooper game improover all-hybrid set to some near-blades with a teensy little cavity in the back to lots of Pings. But the clubs I have today are some Titleist T300's that aren't miles and miles away (in looks) to that first set of DCI's in the pro shop of that public course.

 

What I've found is that sort of middle-ground irons would probably work for almost anyone. The real blades (or nearly so) are definitely frustrating to play if you're not a good ball striker and the ridiculously game improving "shovel" and hybrids are going to get the ball up in the air a little easier. But if you're just dying for a set of MB's or a set of shovels or whatever it's still golf. It's still 99% about you and only 1% about your clubs so play what you want.

 

I suppose if I'd seen a set of Mizuno MP blades in early 90's pro shop and my buddy had said, "Those are a great looking set of blades" I'd probably have settled into that style of clubs over the years. I'll bet I'd stiil be a 13hcp same as I am now but I'd look either a) cool for having great taste in clubs or b) ridiculous for playing that kind of clubs with my handicap, all depending on ones point of view. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by North Butte

[jda]

I can assure you that there is no bias at work when I can hit and hold a green from 240 yards with my 3 iron and my friends either cannot get there, or cannot get the ball to stop with their hybrids.  The truth is that some clubs are better at golf than others and way more than 1%.  If you aspire to be a better golfer, then you have play the clubs that most better golfers play, and learn to play them which includes mental stuff.  Period.  Guess what most of my friends play and hit now... yup, they took a few minutes to hit 3 irons again and they put their hybrids away and they are better now.  These guys are all 5/6 of below and kinda mad that they got sold a bill of goods that a hybrid was the same, but that is on them as adults.  One of them tells me "hey, I can go at pins with my 3/4/5 irons out of rough since they will stop..." no kidding, buddy, which is why good players still play them.  I guess that this might be jda bias.

 

Now I understand that not everybody has the penchant for personal growth to want to do this, but too many lack the mental toughness, self awareness to know that these things are possible because they never tried or it did not work for them.  Some don't truly understand the powerful mental difference between do and try.  They don't study other sports and games and see that to get better you have to play a better opponent, study a better opponent and employ the methodology and technique of a better opponent - can you imagine chess players telling others not to play better players, try harder openings, middle and end games, etc?  Some offer opinions thinking that everybody should live the way that they live, probably with some confirmation bias.  However, the OP did indicated that they have a penchant for learning, studying and getting better, of the right answer, of course, is to do what the people who he/she wants to be like do.  Again, nobody can answer this but the OP.

 

The dude was asking about some CBs.  Where did blades and all of that come from.  Plenty of really good golfers play with CBs.  If CBs were impossible or hard to learn with, nobody over the age of 40-50 would have kept playing.

 

As another terrible false-equivalency, you can choose GI vs getting better clubs on how you might go at your career.  Do you want to just do you thing, do your time and hope that you get promoted and a raise, or do you want to go after it more aggressively.  There are different ways to think for either and different tools to employ.  Neither is right for everybody.  The difference between an average and top earner is just mental and how they choose and use their tools.  If you want to be a top earner, you have to choose and use the top earner tools even before you get to the top.  I have a low handicap - I can assure you that the tools that I chose helped me get here... but I am also driven and did indeed study people who were better than me, who told me that their tools helped them get better too.

[North Butte]

A couple of other useful concepts which may be helpful.

 

"Counterfactual" 

 

"Causality"

[chisag]

59 minutes ago, jda said:

can assure you that there is no bias at work when I can hit and hold a green from 240 yards with my 3 iron. they took a few minutes to hit 3 irons again and they put their hybrids away and they are better now.

 

you can choose GI vs getting better clubs 

 

 

 

... I am not being snarky but it might sound that way. Unless this was just a passive brag, how does a 240yd 3 iron apply to 99% of those that play golf with the average driving distances listed below?  Hybrids are used on the PGA Tour by most and the LPGA (more similar to most Am's than the PGA) certainly has way more hybrids than long irons in their bags. There is a reason even those on the PGA Tour use GI's and in some cases SGI long irons as a driving iron as opposed to a "getting better" iron like the rest of their set and that is because they produce better results. Clubs serve one purpose and that is maximizing a players ability. They don't mask mistakes and/or help them get better because they are less forgiving. They enhance a players ability to produce the trajectory and distance that works best with their swing and ability. Of course that can be MB's, CB's, GI's or SGI's and yes, a full set of hybrids. 

... I would add hitting poor shots caused most of my students to get discouraged and an instructors job is to help them get better both mentally and physically. Almost every high index player that came to me with more demanding clubs (and junk knockoffs) improved faster and stuck with it longer when they switched to more forgiving clubs that produced better shots during a lesson. Obviously yours and others mmv ...

 

The average driving distance across all ages of golfers is 219 yards. Golfers under the age of 30 typically hit the ball the longest (238 yards) and distance declines by around 10 yards every ten years. Swing speeds normally decrease as you age and that’s where the decrease in yardage comes from.

Age Range	Average Driver Distance
20-30	238 yards
30-40	231 yards
40-50	220 yards
50-60	211 yards
60+	196 yards
All Golfers	219 yards

Edited November 10, 2022 by chisag

[MelloYello]

3 hours ago, North Butte said:

This is really not quite on topic but as a total beginner (i.e. the first time I ever set foot on a golf course) I tagged along with a friend who was going to play nine holes at a nearby public course. While he was signing in I wandered around the pro shop and saw a set of Titleist DCI irons. He came over and said, "Wow, those are some great looking clubs". 

 

So of course my first set of irons were Titleist DCI. Now it's three decades later and I've club ho'd everything from a super dooper game improover all-hybrid set to some near-blades with a teensy little cavity in the back to lots of Pings. But the clubs I have today are some Titleist T300's that aren't miles and miles away (in looks) to that first set of DCI's in the pro shop of that public course.

 

What I've found is that sort of middle-ground irons would probably work for almost anyone. The real blades (or nearly so) are definitely frustrating to play if you're not a good ball striker and the ridiculously game improving "shovel" and hybrids are going to get the ball up in the air a little easier. But if you're just dying for a set of MB's or a set of shovels or whatever it's still golf. It's still 99% about you and only 1% about your clubs so play what you want.

 

I suppose if I'd seen a set of Mizuno MP blades in early 90's pro shop and my buddy had said, "Those are a great looking set of blades" I'd probably have settled into that style of clubs over the years. I'll bet I'd stiil be a 13hcp same as I am now but I'd look either a) cool for having great taste in clubs or b) ridiculous for playing that kind of clubs with my handicap, all depending on ones point of view. 

 

As I've often shared on here, my having started out on MBs often led to extensive sessions on the range. There were plenty of horrible rounds that led me right back to the range. The idea that blades will teach a player how to be good is obviously wrong but they will force a player to the range more often and that can have benefits (even if those benefits aren't considered optimal). 

 

OTOH, I'm also keenly aware having swapped back and forth between MBs and PCBs over the years that MBs can be confidence destroyers on your bad days because of the excess feedback. As so many have pointed out, PCBs provide all the feedback a player needs. That would seem to imply that MBs are actually providing too much feedback to the recreational golfer. 

That not only seems logical but it also seems true to me in personal experience. Most of the time a MB ends up providing so much feedback that it's distracting to a recreational player. It's easy for even a fairly competent player to end up hyper-aware of his ball-striking. And I don't think that helps. 

 

This is part of why I say the biggest benefit of perimeter weighting isn't that they actually help the shots but rather than they dampen the excess feedback and allow you to get on with your life when you strike a ball slightly off-center. 

 

Perimeter weighting really was the thing that allowed me to get off the range and go practice some of the other (more important) elements of golf: putting, short game, wedge play, driving, etc.

It was only when I stopped obsessing about my iron strike pattern that I actually started getting the most out of my game. This isn't to say we can't use the range to get better. But IMHO playing a MB can lead to someone becoming "hyper-aware" of their contact and this can be a distraction that stops a player from feeling that they're ever good enough to go practice the other things. 

[Barfolomew]

Absolutely Vincent.... your logic is sound!

 

CB players Irons are a great place to start.  Game Improvement irons have huge amounts of Offset.... that in my and others opinions makes excellent contact secondary to some idea that offset helps players hit less curve if you have certain tendencies...... what the heII heck lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Barfolomew

[Barfolomew]

The idea that golf is hard is a thought that will poison your mental game.  Golf is easy.  You're just hitting a ball with a stick round a grass field.  Sometimes certain shots are tougher then other shots but never think its difficult cause then you will believe what you think and have a defeatist attitude.

 

Many Amatuers can beat Tiger or Rory if they have a good day and the pro has a bad day..... does that make golf easy or hard?  You pick.   All matters how you look at it.  Cause a good amateur aint never out playing Michael Jordan in an NBA game, not even most pros can beat him on an off night.

 

 

 

There are a lot of stigmas in the golf world of should and should nots..... Learn to cut your own path and trust yourself, as you sound like you are, and you might go from bogey golf to par golf in less then a year like I did.  Not saying be closed minded at all just trust yourself if you got skills.  I like to putt with my eyes about a foot away from the ball and not right over the ball as is the teaching.... many good players told me its wrong..... mmm hmm 🐔

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Barfolomew