USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Dutch1008]

11 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I agree with changing the red to silver and most public courses don’t put the blacks out often.

 

how about we sues how far you hit it vs. age of member/tournament designations.
 

black 275+
Blue 240-275

white 220-240

gold 200-220

silver less than 200

 

Well now you're going to have to solve the age old problem of people constantly lying about how far they hit it 😉 

 

Also, you have the problem of young athletic guys who are all 20+ handicaps but once or twice a round will still smash a drive 280+. I know those guys. In my late teens and early 20s, I was one of those guys. They should not be on the tips and should probably keep driver in the bag most of the round.  

[mgoblue83]

9 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

So we disagree?  That's how it is sometimes.  I miss Rahm and Bryson but they made their decision.  They decided they didn't need fans, nothing I can do about that.

 

I see great shots every weekend on the PGA Tour.

 

This isn't an opinion to agree or disagree with. It's simply fact that ratings are down across the board and that the general public is losing interest in pro golf. 

 

Of course there are great shots every week but the overall enjoyment factor on the week to week broadcasts is getting worse and worse and a huge component of that is how boring bomb and gouge is to watch. It all looks the same and you very rarely have those "wow" moments. 

 

 

 

Edited April 4 by mgoblue83

[bekgolf]

1 minute ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This isn't an opinion to agree or disagree with. It's simply fact that ratings are down across the board and that the general public is losing interest in pro golf. 

 

Of course there are great shots every week but the overall enjoyment factor on the week to week broadcasts is getting worse and worse. 

 

 

 

 

I've seen a few dramatic Sunday finishes so far this year.  I really enjoy it when someone I'm not familiar with gets into contention or wins.  They do it by playing good golf, I enjoy it and so do others.  I don't see the same crisis that you do.

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, Dutch1008 said:

 

Well now you're going to have to solve the age old problem of people constantly lying about how far they hit it 😉 

 

Also, you have the problem of young athletic guys who are all 20+ handicaps but once or twice a round will still smash a drive 280+. I know those guys. In my late teens and early 20s, I was one of those guys. They should not be on the tips and should probably keep driver in the bag most of the round.  

Ah see.  We are ready for this problem.  Once a year you go a range that has top tracer or similar to qualify. It take the average of 10 drives.  What ever that number is, it’s gets tied to your GHIN for validation and you use that for one year.  Don’t have an active GHIN?  You use golds.  This is a bit tongue in cheek, but isn’t a far off reality of what could be.

 

At best it gets more players playing the tee box they should be.  At worst it’s no different than today.  
 

If people lie about how far they hit it play the wrong tee box, they are probably going to play the wrong tee box in any scenario.

[mgoblue83]

2 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

I've seen a few dramatic Sunday finishes so far this year.  I really enjoy it when someone I'm not familiar with gets into contention or wins.  They do it by playing good golf, I enjoy it and so do others.  I don't see the same crisis that you do.

 

Again, ratings are down across the board for all pro golf. It's basically at a crisis point for the tour.

 

I'm glad you are enjoying the current product but fans are losing interest period and all of the data supports it. 

[mgoblue83]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Ah see.  We are ready for this problem.  Once a year you go a range that has top tracer or similar to qualify. It take the average of 10 drives.  What ever that number is, it’s gets tied to your GHIN for validation and you use that for one year.  Don’t have an active GHIN?  You use golds.  This is a bit tongue in cheek, but isn’t a far off reality of what could be.

 

At best it gets more players playing the tee box they should be.  At worst it’s no different than today.  
 

If people lie about how far they hit it play the wrong tee box, they are probably going to play the wrong tee box in any scenario.

 

All good in theory but the better option is for the USGA/R&A and whoever else to empower local courses to enforce pace of play and etiquette expectations. 

 

If course rangers had the backing of the establishment to remove offending players and groups from the course this problem would go away pretty quick. 

[Pnwpingi210]

7 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

All good in theory but the better option is for the USGA/R&A and whoever else to empower local courses to enforce pace of play and etiquette expectations. 

 

If course rangers had the backing of the establishment to remove offending players and groups from the course this problem would go away pretty quick. 

I don’t think the USGA and RA having anything to do with that.

 Courses don’t want to enforce pace of play because there is no upside for them.  Golf in metro markets is in high demand.  There are more golfers searching for golf than there are tee times.  Course have already packed the courses out with 8-10 min tee times.  Thats between a 3-4 hr round pace which is an about as fast as you could expect a 4 some to go.  The courses are already maxing revenue and can’t fit anymore golfers on the course and because golf is so popular at the moment they aren’t as concerned about the experience.

 

Premium destination golf is the exception.  They tend to enforce pace of play and etiquette a bit more in my experience.

Edited April 4 by Pnwpingi210

[radiman]

20 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This isn't an opinion to agree or disagree with. It's simply fact that ratings are down across the board and that the general public is losing interest in pro golf. 

 

Of course there are great shots every week but the overall enjoyment factor on the week to week broadcasts is getting worse and worse and a huge component of that is how boring bomb and gouge is to watch. It all looks the same and you very rarely have those "wow" moments. 

 

 

 

See, the opinion aspect of this claim is that you’re giving the lack of long irons into par 4’s a lot more credit than it’s owed. 
 

ratings are down. From a not so distant past where the game was played in the exact same way. Unless you’re claiming that the populace suddenly grew bored with the game the same time LIV started disrupting. 

[Pnwpingi210]

16 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

I've seen a few dramatic Sunday finishes so far this year.  I really enjoy it when someone I'm not familiar with gets into contention or wins.  They do it by playing good golf, I enjoy it and so do others.  I don't see the same crisis that you do.

Agree.

 

Pro Golf is changing.  The LIV/pga has fractured the current top talent level at bit, however I’d say that the pipeline of talent coming into the sport is far greater than anything we’ve seen in the past and it’s only going to increase, probably exponentially.

purses are much larger

golf equipment, instruction and technology is far far more accessible

 

This going to lead to much better athletes learning the skill of golf at a younger age and choosing to specialize the sport over other endeavors.  
 

[smashdn]

16 hours ago, clevited said:

 

I disagree with everything you just said because it is completely incorrect. 

 

Care to support this claim?

 

I covered a lot of ground in that post and I would find it hard for all of it to be "completely incorrect."  But maybe you have evidence to the contrary.

[mgoblue83]

16 minutes ago, radiman said:

See, the opinion aspect of this claim is that you’re giving the lack of long irons into par 4’s a lot more credit than it’s owed. 
 

ratings are down. From a not so distant past where the game was played in the exact same way. Unless you’re claiming that the populace suddenly grew bored with the game the same time LIV started disrupting. 

 

There are 2 things that drive ratings:

1. Star power at the top of the leaderboard on Sundays. LIV and the aging and/or decline in performance of guys like Tiger have severely impacted the star power.

2. Special golf courses and difficult conditions that challenge the best players. 

 

Can't do much about #1 until there is unification and another generational star player comes along but #2 would be greatly improved by limiting the golf ball and making all of these average courses more challenging on a week to week basis.

 

 

[IndyArcher]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This is just false.

 

1. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because of the PGA/LIV split. Leaderboards have very little star power and ratings are down across the board.

 

2. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because the pros very rarely face a situation that requires true shot making. It's all bomb and gouge or lay up and have a wedge anyway. When is that last time a pro actually had to hit a long iron into a par 4?

 

 

What was the immediate drastic loss of viewership % once LIV was instituted? What are the LIV viewership statistics presently? I'm asking as I don't know.

 

Nonetheless...

I'm skeptical that LIV has had much of an impact. I simply think that format has made golf less 'watchable' to our current culture. Golf overall is a sport of delayed gratification that takes a lot of work to become proficient. That doesn't match well with today's GenZ culture. People that don't play certainly don't watch in the current way Golf is shown. 

[Pnwpingi210]

10 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

 

What was the immediate drastic loss of viewership % once LIV was instituted? What are the LIV viewership statistics presently? I'm asking as I don't know.

 

Nonetheless...

I'm skeptical that LIV has had much of an impact. I simply think that format has made golf less 'watchable' to our current culture. Golf overall is a sport of delayed gratification that takes a lot of work to become proficient. That doesn't match well with today's GenZ culture. People that don't play certainly don't watch in the current way Golf is shown. 

You are correct.  There’s definitely a reason portion of the golfing community that watches social media golf created content.  The rise of good good and their brand deals with callaway and fujikura are proof of that.  The question is will that continue to grow or remain a novelty compared to tournament golf.

[radiman]

20 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

There are 2 things that drive ratings:

1. Star power at the top of the leaderboard on Sundays. LIV and the aging and/or decline in performance of guys like Tiger have severely impacted the star power.

2. Special golf courses and difficult conditions that challenge the best players. 

 

Can't do much about #1 until there is unification and another generational star player comes along but #2 would be greatly improved by limiting the golf ball and making all of these average courses more challenging on a week to week basis.

 

 

They're playing the same courses they were the same way they were a few years ago.  The ratings dropping from where they were then to now is independent of #2 is what I am getting at.  Also, the broadcasts have been lackluster for a while and obviously the LIV divide as you mentioned.  But, again, that's all opinion.  Not one cold hard fact other than the numbers being down.  

No guarantee that limiting distance by 10% will do jack to the ratings.  For every course architect fan, there are probably a handful of people that want to see excitement.  Birdies and big drives.  

[Dutch1008]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

You are correct.  There’s definitely a reason portion of the golfing community that watches social media golf created content.  The rise of good good and their brand deals with callaway and fujikura are proof of that.  The question is will that continue to grow or remain a novelty compared to tournament golf.

 

Or will those people grow and mature into TV watching fans?

 

I didn't watch a ton of TV golf in my teens and 20s. Too many other things to do. I liked golf and played golf but when you're trying to make sure you have beer money for the weekend, golf takes a back seat. 

 

As my discretionary income grew, so did the amount of time I spent on the course and in front of the TV. I imagine that some % of the youtube/top golf crowd will grow into fans of professional golf. 

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, Dutch1008 said:

 

Or will those people grow and mature into TV watching fans?

 

I didn't watch a ton of TV golf in my teens and 20s. Too many other things to do. I liked golf and played golf but when you're trying to make sure you have beer money for the weekend, golf takes a back seat. 

 

As my discretionary income grew, so did the amount of time I spent on the course and in front of the TV. I imagine that some % of the youtube/top golf crowd will grow into fans of professional golf. 

Could be. I’ve seen a few good good putters and  apparel in the wild, and it all all been on 25-40 yrs olds.  I’d love to know there viewership demographics, but I think it’s older than we suspect.

[Ty_Webb]

3 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

There are 2 things that drive ratings:

1. Star power at the top of the leaderboard on Sundays. LIV and the aging and/or decline in performance of guys like Tiger have severely impacted the star power.

2. Special golf courses and difficult conditions that challenge the best players. 

 

Can't do much about #1 until there is unification and another generational star player comes along but #2 would be greatly improved by limiting the golf ball and making all of these average courses more challenging on a week to week basis.

 

 

 

What's the split between 1 and 2?

[Pnwpingi210]

6 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

What's the split between 1 and 2?

Subjectively 

 

1. 95%
2. 5%

[mgoblue83]

54 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

What's the split between 1 and 2?

I think the split changes on a week to week basis.

 

For instance:

Rocket mortgage classic with the top 5 players in the world at the top of the leaderboard on Sunday will still get far lower ratings than the Masters with zero stars.

 

Meanwhile an open championship with the top 5 players competing would crush the ratings of that same Masters.

 

The thing that everyone is forgetting is that when everyone is able to play bomb and gouge it’s WAY harder to separate yourself and become one of the stars that draws ratings.

 

Who was the last new must see superstar? Probably Rory 2010-2014. He was doing things that nobody else could do because even 10-15 years ago the equipment did not support bomb and gouge for average ball strikers like it does now.

Edited April 4 by mgoblue83

[Ty_Webb]

13 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

even 10-15 years ago the equipment did not support bomb and gouge for average ball strikers like it does now.

 

Okay - I'll bite. What equipment changes have happened over the past 10-15 years that have made bomb and gouge more appealing? 

[hollabachgt]

On 4/1/2024 at 12:17 PM, subrew said:

I would love to see the USGA work with a pro and do some testing with unmarked balls.  Most of the OEMs knee jerk reactions (literally press releases were published 30 minutes later) claimed none of their balls would meet the new proposed rule.  Turns out, some will.  It would be great if the USGA could grab a select few that do, remove the print/logo info on the ball and replaced with "test A" and "test B."

 

Have one ball be a super high spinner like the previous gen Kirkland.  That sucker was high spin when hit at 120mph, 127mph would be crazy.  Have another be a super soft compression core ball like a Callaway Supersoft or Wilson DuoSoft that are losing 5-7mph of ball speed at 120mph, 127mph could be a solid 8-10mph ball speed loss.  Then have a ProV.  Show the extremes of soft compression, or high spin, versus the standard when hit by pros.  Then show the differences on 7-iron approach shots, and 50-degree wedge shots.  

 

The USGA has the info.  They have tested balls under the proposed new rules.  They know what balls would still be legal.  Let's get a really fast male Pro, average speed male pro, and an average LPGA pro.  Driver speeds from 100-130mph.  People who are consistent with ball striking, so the data means something.

They've done this a few different times: R22-02 Laboratory and player testing with a limited distance golf ball

[hollabachgt]

On 3/28/2024 at 11:45 PM, stinger_gc said:

The core of the ball was a lot softer then the modern ball causing more spin. 

I was surprised to continuously hear him say so much about the compression of the ball as my memory of the One Tour is it was rather hard.

 

Pulling up the old data from golfballtest.com it may not be as firm as the left dash, but it does have a pretty high compression, similar to the other Pro Vs.

[Pnwpingi210]

2 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Okay - I'll bite. What equipment changes have happened over the past 10-15 years that have made bomb and gouge more appealing? 

Driver heads.

 

CT has been capped for a long time.  What’s changed significantly in the last 10 years is the ability to achieve maximum ct all over the face of the club. they have also honed bulge and roll or similar technology to assist start lines.

 

This means golfers can have more variance of face, path, and strike location while still achieving near optimal results and reducing wayward misses.    
 

 

 

 

Edited April 5 by Pnwpingi210

[Ty_Webb]

7 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

I’ll bite back

 

has a driver head that is more forgiving made it harder or easier for an excellent driver of the ball to separate himself from his competitors? 

 

Harder clearly. It's also harder to separate yourself because the strength in depth is so much higher than it used to be. But so what? If these changes all make it easier to hit the fairway then there's less bomb and gouge and more just bomb surely. Bomb and gouge is not a new term. There might be more people doing it now, but I think it has less to do with equipment and more to do with the fact that people have discovered that long and possibly a little wayward might be more optimal than short and straight. 

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Harder clearly. It's also harder to separate yourself because the strength in depth is so much higher than it used to be. But so what? If these changes all make it easier to hit the fairway then there's less bomb and gouge and more just bomb surely. Bomb and gouge is not a new term. There might be more people doing it now, but I think it has less to do with equipment and more to do with the fact that people have discovered that long and possibly a little wayward might be more optimal than short and straight. 

More people do it now for two reason. 
 

equipment advances have made it less risky to swing fast and hit the ball far.

 

The modern tour golfer now trains their athleticism as well as there skill.

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Driver heads.

 

CT has been capped for a long time.  What’s changed significantly in the last 10 years is the ability to achieve maximum ct all over the face of the club. they have also honed bulge and roll or similar technology to assist start lines.

 

This means golfers can have more variance of face, path, and strike location while still achieving near optimal results and reducing wayward misses.    
 

 

 

 

 

So here's my turn to do what you often do, and demand the data to back up your claim. Do you have data that can quantify the claimed increase in forgiveness? I'm not talking about all that combined 10k MOI marketing BS. Do you have anything other than marketing speak to quantify this claimed increase in forgiveness? Are we talking a 3% increase in forgiveness, 10%? As far as I know, nobody has done any sort of qualitative or quantitative tests on 'forgiveness', ie a 5mm off-center strike of this new driver retains 15% more ballspeed compared to this 10 year old driver. Without some sort of quantification, just saying there's an increase in forgiveness is meaningless.

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

So here's my turn to do what you often do, and demand the data to back up your claim. Do you have data that can quantify the claimed increase in forgiveness? I'm not talking about all that combined 10k MOI marketing BS. Do you have anything other than marketing speak to quantify this claimed increase in forgiveness? Are we talking a 3% increase in forgiveness, 10%? As far as I know, nobody has done any sort of qualitative or quantitative tests on 'forgiveness', ie a 5mm off-center strike of this new driver retains 15% more ballspeed compared to this 10 year old driver. Without some sort of quantification, just saying there's an increase in forgiveness is meaningless.

Another site recently posted their testing of ball speed or distance drop off for driver dependent of strike location.  Cool clubs also does this and posts the results.  

 

Feel free to look up both sources if you are curious.

 

 

Edited April 5 by Pnwpingi210
Added strike location

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Harder clearly. It's also harder to separate yourself because the strength in depth is so much higher than it used to be. But so what? If these changes all make it easier to hit the fairway then there's less bomb and gouge and more just bomb surely. Bomb and gouge is not a new term. There might be more people doing it now, but I think it has less to do with equipment and more to do with the fact that people have discovered that long and possibly a little wayward might be more optimal than short and straight. 

Especially in today's game where the rough is as well maintained as the fairway. PGAT wants to present their courses in a favorable light on television. That means a well-manicured two-inch height and pros not hacking out side ways.

 

Unfortunately, we won't get that at our favorite muni though.🙂

Edited April 5 by Titleist99

[Simpsonia]

12 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Another site recently posted their testing of ball speed or distance drop off for driver dependent of strike location.  Cool clubs also does this and posts the results.  

 

Feel free to look up both sources if you are curious.

 

 

 

That's pretty cool and all, but unless there's the same tests to quantify the delta between older clubs and the new ones, it remains a novelty for me. Additionally, it looks like those strike location tests are primarily on the highest lofted clubs (12*), when the average tour pro is using 9 degree driver or less. Again, you made the claim that these drivers are so forgiving that modern pros are adding tens of yards just from being able to swing out of their shoes. The burden is on you to support that assertion. 

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, Simpsonia said:

 

That's pretty cool and all, but unless there's the same tests to quantify the delta between older clubs and the new ones, it remains a novelty for me. Additionally, it looks like those strike location tests are primarily on the highest lofted clubs (12*), when the average tour pro is using 9 degree driver or less. Again, you made the claim that these drivers are so forgiving that modern pros are adding tens of yards just from being able to swing out of their shoes. The burden is on you to support that assertion. 

I believe they have the tested last years models and this years models.  You can see some improvements YoY on some models if you compare.  And I believe one of those sites posted an hour long video they speak to it what they are seeing in year over year improvement is forgiveness (ball speed retention and accuracy of shot across the face)

 

You can choose to believe their data and testing protocols or not.