USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Titleist99]

9 minutes ago, jjtour said:

So you associate your value of the course you play with the number of strokes you get to hit? Therefore someone taking a 100 strokes gets way more value than the one taking 70? I'm saying it's an idea, you dont even have to do it all the time. But if it's mornings or whenever, you want to play during that time it's alternate shot or whatever, then you enforce it. You dont want to follow the rules, you play at a different time or dont play. Everyone is basically saying "I need to be included and I want to do whatever I want out there", it's BS. 

 

How about this for an alternative.

 

You pay before your round, lets call it $100. If you come back to the shop with your receipt inside 4 hours, or whatever time you deem, you get $25 dollar refund or credit to the restaurant or sometime. If you dont, that's your penalty for slow play. Would people agree to that? I bet there would be alot more hussle up if something is on the line rather than just twiddling your thumbs with no consequnce.

"You pay before your round, lets call it $100. If you come back to the shop with your receipt inside 4 hours, or whatever time you deem, you get $25 dollar refund or credit to the restaurant or sometime. If you dont, that's your penalty for slow play. Would people agree to that? I bet there would be alot more hussle up if something is on the line rather than just twiddling your thumbs with no consequnce."   

-----------------------------  

 

Chaos would ensue with all the players behind the slow group. all would feel that their $25 was in danger of being forfeited. Law enforcement would have to be summoned.🤣

 

 

[jjtour]

21 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

 

So, you have one foursome of slow-movers who end up keeping 6 other groups just over the 4 hour mark, you penalize those 6 groups a total of $600 (if they are all foursomes) because of one slower group in front of them? I don't think that's a great way to make friends and influence people as a course that needs players to thrive. 

 

Maybe I misunderstand your plan? 🤔

 

What it was is an idea. All I see on here is people complaining about slow play the bane of golf, yet that's just the way it is. Nothing to do about it. Lets here some other ideas guys if we are this concerned.

[radiman]

Just now, jjtour said:

 

What it was is an idea. All I see on here is people complaining about slow play the bane of golf, yet that's just the way it is. Nothing to do about it. Lets here some other ideas guys if we are this concerned.

Much like politics, the solution is bigger than any one person.  And, limited to what courses and people are willing to do.  They can try to nudge people towards playing faster.  But, packed tee sheets and one person deciding that they paid their green fee so they'll play as slow as they'd like is all it takes to start a domino effect that will only get worse down the sheet.  

Courses being more strict on pace of play with aggressive rangers and no fear of asking someone to leave could be what it takes to help on some courses.  Others, they need to be more realistic about how many rounds can be played in one day.  But, that won't happen until their bottom lines are effected.  There are a few players out there that bite off more than they can chew.  I honestly am usually surprised by that accusation.  Because I never see the lesser skilled players that I encounter eager to make the game more difficult by moving to the tips.  

 

Making everyone hit the ball shorter and then just assuming that they'll suddenly put their ego aside like it will fix all of the other issues is short sighted.  And honestly, it's not really the goal of the rule change anyhow.  

[Golferpaul]

44 minutes ago, radiman said:

Because hitting it further makes the game easier. 

True.  And course setups are a big part of the problem.  Most golfers play from tees that are way too long.  But most courses don't have a tee for short senior golfers.  

 

I like the theory that we should play from tees that allow us to use the same clubs as the pros hit.

[Golferpaul]

38 minutes ago, radiman said:

 They could change tee time gaps to 12-15 minutes apart if they cared about pace of play that much. But, like I said.  They want our money.  

 

And do whatever we want lol.  It's just the way it has always been.  You show me a course that would even dare implement anything that drastic and waive good bye to their revenue.  course won't miss you.  

Here are two courses that I have played (or will in two weeks) that have 15-minute tee time intervals.

 

Black Desert Experience (blackdesertresort.com)

 

Fox Harb'r Resort - Nova Scotia Luxury Travel : Nova Scotia Luxury Accommodations Guest Suites | Fox Harb'r Resort, NS (foxharbr.com)

[radiman]

2 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

True.  And course setups are a big part of the problem.  Most golfers play from tees that are way too long.  But most courses don't have a tee for short senior golfers.  

 

I like the theory that we should play from tees that allow us to use the same clubs as the pros hit.

I agree with this.  One of the courses I frequent has blue, white, then red tees.  Blue is around 6700 yards, white is 6300, then red is all the way down to 5300.  That's a pretty drastic change.  And many guys feel like that's too short.  They did implement a combo tee between the white and red.  But, the reds are typically waaaaay ahead of the whites.  Then, you have the ego issue.  A lot of older players consider red the ladies tees.  So, they wouldn't be caught dead way up there.  

[radiman]

1 minute ago, Golferpaul said:

Here are two courses that I have played (or will in two weeks) that have 15-minute tee time intervals.

 

Black Desert Experience (blackdesertresort.com)

 

Fox Harb'r Resort - Nova Scotia Luxury Travel : Nova Scotia Luxury Accommodations Guest Suites | Fox Harb'r Resort, NS (foxharbr.com)

How is the pace of play?  During Covid, the CC I was a member at at the time had 15 minute tee times at one point.  It was amazing.  Absolutely cooked through the round.  Never saw the group ahead or behind us.  Eventually, they ended up at 10 minute intervals.  But, since it's private, aside from grumpy members, they had no incentive to compact it even further.  

[jjtour]

20 minutes ago, radiman said:

Much like politics, the solution is bigger than any one person.  And, limited to what courses and people are willing to do.  They can try to nudge people towards playing faster.  But, packed tee sheets and one person deciding that they paid their green fee so they'll play as slow as they'd like is all it takes to start a domino effect that will only get worse down the sheet.  

Courses being more strict on pace of play with aggressive rangers and no fear of asking someone to leave could be what it takes to help on some courses.  Others, they need to be more realistic about how many rounds can be played in one day.  But, that won't happen until their bottom lines are effected.  There are a few players out there that bite off more than they can chew.  I honestly am usually surprised by that accusation.  Because I never see the lesser skilled players that I encounter eager to make the game more difficult by moving to the tips.  

 

Making everyone hit the ball shorter and then just assuming that they'll suddenly put their ego aside like it will fix all of the other issues is short sighted.  And honestly, it's not really the goal of the rule change anyhow.  

 

Yeah I get it, not an easy solution. I think some ideas should be looked at though, and not in more aggressive ways.

 

Thing is once the ball change comes in, you arent going to notice. It wont be like you can have two different balls to play, there will be all the same spec ball and life will just go on. Eventually OEMS will manufacture around it to optimize clubs and it will be forgotten about quickly enough. Remember the wedge groove rule that was supposed to revolutionize golf, because it was too easy to spin the ball with square grooves. Non existent issue now. Unless a hard stop on technology is implemented, and a true rollback to driver size and playability, we wont notice. And I know the hard stop of tech is never going to happen so it's not a point to make. 

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

Here's what I know:

 

Slow play is the bane of golf and golfers everywhere.... making the game harder will not help that.

 

IMO

 

Sidebar here:  Playing speed would improve if golfers were made to attend a class in basic etiquette and rules for a "golf license" and that document was required to book a tee time and play. 

 

Things like provisional shots, tell a story after everyone tees off not while you are on the tee, don't hit into people, prepare for your shot while you are waiting so you are ready to hit when it's your turn etc.

 

Getting everyone on the same page would go a long ways.  Stepping off the soapbox now.

[Ty_Webb]

2 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

The pace of play challenges I witness on the public course I play aren’t related to tee box choices.  It’s related to the amount of time it takes the foursome to hole out once they get within 20 yards of the green.  2-3 duffed chips and bunker shots then finally blading one over the green. Pacing off and lining up every putt like it’s worth a million dollars.   Hovering over putts for 30 seconds.   
 

most of those groups advance the ball from the tee to within in 15 yards of the green reasonable fast.  

 

Not sure I entirely agree with that. I think they're pretty slow everywhere, but it's harder to notice because it's when they're on the green that you're actually waiting on them. Be that as it may, giving people longer clubs into greens is going to mean more missed greens, which gives more opportunity for 2-3 duffed chips and bunker shots and then blading one over the green.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Not sure I entirely agree with that. I think they're pretty slow everywhere, but it's harder to notice because it's when they're on the green that you're actually waiting on them. Be that as it may, giving people longer clubs into greens is going to mean more missed greens, which gives more opportunity for 2-3 duffed chips and bunker shots and then blading one over the green.

Perhaps.

 I think most of those golfers aren’t making solid contact with the ball regardless of what part of the course they are on. Blading one up the fairway 120 instead the 150 you needed to hit the green is less impactful from a time perspective then blading the 15 yard chip to 15 yards on the other side of the green, sauntering over to hit and repeating the process.

 

I saw a post on just reducing the each shot sequence by 3 seconds for a foursome over a round saves 20 mins. Most golfers spend much less time on their shot sequence tee and approaches to the green vs around and on the green.

[Titleist99]

8 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Sidebar here:  Playing speed would improve if golfers were made to attend a class in basic etiquette and rules for a "golf license" and that document was required to book a tee time and play. 

 

Things like provisional shots, tell a story after everyone tees off not while you are on the tee, don't hit into people, prepare for your shot while you are waiting so you are ready to hit when it's your turn etc.

 

Getting everyone on the same page would go a long ways.  Stepping off the soapbox now.

Agreed......... Most new players can't get off the tee yet refuse to pickup after a triple on any hole. When I started playing golf there were plenty of marshals on the golf course to help with the flow.....Marshals seem to have gone the way of the do-do bird.🤣

[IndyArcher]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

"You pay before your round, lets call it $100. If you come back to the shop with your receipt inside 4 hours, or whatever time you deem, you get $25 dollar refund or credit to the restaurant or sometime. If you dont, that's your penalty for slow play. Would people agree to that? I bet there would be alot more hussle up if something is on the line rather than just twiddling your thumbs with no consequnce."   

-----------------------------  

 

Chaos would ensue with all the players behind the slow group. all would feel that their $25 was in danger of being forfeited. Law enforcement would have to be summoned.🤣

 

 

 

Make no mistake about, the police will be summoned immediately after responding to the call at McDonald's due to the 6-piece McNugget that only had 5 pieces of chicken! That's the world we live in!

Edited April 3 by IndyArcher

[jjtour]

33 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Sidebar here:  Playing speed would improve if golfers were made to attend a class in basic etiquette and rules for a "golf license" and that document was required to book a tee time and play. 

 

Things like provisional shots, tell a story after everyone tees off not while you are on the tee, don't hit into people, prepare for your shot while you are waiting so you are ready to hit when it's your turn etc.

 

Getting everyone on the same page would go a long ways.  Stepping off the soapbox now.

 

I agree with you. On the golf license idea, looking up the rules for germany if you dont have the license are you just restricted to driving ranges? Or does that also include short courses or par 3s? Much like a learners permit for driving, I think this is a solid idea. 

 

The other stuff you mentioned is more just common courtesy. People are so much about themselves these days though. I have one buddy who walks in our group and is constantly texting on his phone, yet apparently cant walk and text very well, so he stops to text. I tell him lets go here man, times wasting you can text another time. The thing is, he is by far the worst player in our group, like a 30 handicap. And he barely ever pays attention to where his ball goes, when to be ready to hit, etc. It's just things like that, it's become too casual in every walk of life now. The little slights that people cant see past, they think it doesnt bother people but it just adds up to where it becomes an issue. I think alot of that is in golf. One provisional shot, once in a while. Fine. Every other hole, just cuz you didnt hit it great. No. A good example is people even being aware of what the rules are now, the stroke and distance rule that got changed as a local rule, I never see played. People smash one out of bounds they replay it from that point, to speed up they should be using it to their advantage and going up hundreds of yards in the fairway and playing from there. If a golf license or something of that nature would make things better, all for it.

[smashdn]

On 4/2/2024 at 2:17 PM, clevited said:

 

The bolded completely ignores a well established point that has been made many times.  Distance is largely limited by the courses themselves.  You see the longest of the long averaging 315-320 year after year.  At any time, there could be a dozen or more players averaging that or more on tour right now but they don't because it isn't the smart move.  Given the longer you hit it, the more the ball can move with the wind, and in general, the longer the distance you hit, the more dispersion you will have, It self limits.  The human max is on display on the long drive tour and most of those guys aren't hitting 400 or more without help from wind, elevation and or massive roll out.  They also aren't striping 400 in general such that it would have reliable use on a tour level course. 

Do they all use a standard ball?  Is the ball they are using "optimized" (within the rules) for their swing?  Meaning if there was a ball that "fit" them better, would they get better results with it as opposed to whatever they use for sanctioned long drive events?

 

On 4/2/2024 at 2:17 PM, clevited said:

They would, just like everyone else, have to dial it back if they want to win.

 

They funky thing about that, while they certainly would want to dial it back, they don't have to.  And the negative impacts (without getting into the argument about whether anyone believes they are valid or not) are felt whether they win, score well, or score badly (at least for two rounds).

 

That doesn't even mention the golf bros (guys who don't have to dial it back for score or who don't care what they shoot) who are capable of hitting it 340 without any inkling of where it will go.  They wait on the tee, backing the place up.  They hit it wayward and have to go hunt it down.  They hit it across into the other fairway, and back the course up.  They cut corners they have no business to, sometimes over adjoining houses, creating liability problems for courses, which in turn makes future courses to be built, have to be designed with wider corridors farther and farther from the tees to account for that, thus taking more acreage and be built at a higher cost.

[clevited]

4 hours ago, smashdn said:

Do they all use a standard ball?  Is the ball they are using "optimized" (within the rules) for their swing?  Meaning if there was a ball that "fit" them better, would they get better results with it as opposed to whatever they use for sanctioned long drive events?

 

 

They funky thing about that, while they certainly would want to dial it back, they don't have to.  And the negative impacts (without getting into the argument about whether anyone believes they are valid or not) are felt whether they win, score well, or score badly (at least for two rounds).

 

That doesn't even mention the golf bros (guys who don't have to dial it back for score or who don't care what they shoot) who are capable of hitting it 340 without any inkling of where it will go.  They wait on the tee, backing the place up.  They hit it wayward and have to go hunt it down.  They hit it across into the other fairway, and back the course up.  They cut corners they have no business to, sometimes over adjoining houses, creating liability problems for courses, which in turn makes future courses to be built, have to be designed with wider corridors farther and farther from the tees to account for that, thus taking more acreage and be built at a higher cost.

 

I disagree with everything you just said because it is completely incorrect. 

[gvogel]

22 hours ago, jjtour said:

I was thinking about this last night, what is it about golf that we have this ego that we need to have  by far longest flying ball/stick combo for a sport? Baseball by comparison, a home run goes 450 feet that's smoked, that's about a 8 iron for most people. You start hitting drivers and 250 yards wasnt enough, We have the biggest fields of any sport, why did we need to make them even bigger? Needs to just go bigger, go farther. We need latest and greatest equipment every year or two to "keep up". We created the inflation in the game ourselves, silly.

 

We could just enjoy the game for what it is, a game to enjoy outside with friends, some healthy competition thrown in. Yet we just keep advancing it beyond anything it used to resemble. I think the people that love the game will still love it regardless of what the equipment changes to. If they quit then so be it, take your ball and go home.

This ^.  The voice of reason.

Where were you 394 pages ago? 😁

[gvogel]

22 hours ago, radiman said:

Because hitting it further makes the game easier.  It's not a matter of hitting a home run well beyond the 330 fence.  It's about getting closer to the hole to utilize less club into the green.  If it were a matter of hitting it as far over the green as you possibly could, I suppose that would make sense.  

 

OEMs pushed to the limits that were in place within the rules.  They saw that engineering would become an issue so they started imposing new limits.  

Decreasing the length of holes would accomplish the same thing - make the game easier.

[gvogel]

22 hours ago, radiman said:

I agree with this.  One of the courses I frequent has blue, white, then red tees.  Blue is around 6700 yards, white is 6300, then red is all the way down to 5300.  That's a pretty drastic change.  And many guys feel like that's too short.  They did implement a combo tee between the white and red.  But, the reds are typically waaaaay ahead of the whites.  Then, you have the ego issue.  A lot of older players consider red the ladies tees.  So, they wouldn't be caught dead way up there.  

My club has white tees at 6,350 and gold tees at 5,600.  Lots of the older guys don't want to play the sissy gold tees, but 6,350 is too long, particularly in the fall or spring.  I think that the club is going to come up with a combined set that will play 6,000, or just short of that.

[radiman]

1 minute ago, gvogel said:

Decreasing the length of holes would accomplish the same thing - make the game easier.

Sure.  But, that wasn't the question.  The closer you are to the green on your next shot, the easier the game is.  He wanted to know why there was a push for more distance.  I suppose we can ask each public course in the country to consider adding another tee box 10 yards closer to the green.  Or, the player can optimize their gear, practice, speed train, etc to accomplish it. 

[radiman]

1 minute ago, gvogel said:

My club has white tees at 6,350 and gold tees at 5,600.  Lots of the older guys don't want to play the sissy gold tees, but 6,350 is too long, particularly in the fall or spring.  I think that the club is going to come up with a combined set that will play 6,000, or just short of that.

I think getting rid of the color red would make a huge difference haha.  Like a deeply ingrained assumption that the reds are for women.  

[Pnwpingi210]

1 hour ago, radiman said:

I think getting rid of the color red would make a huge difference haha.  Like a deeply ingrained assumption that the reds are for women.  

Correct.  I think it’s pebble that gets this right, but if it’s not, it’s another famous cali course.  Tee box recommendations are made on how far you hit the golf ball, not you handicap, age, or gender.

 

The ball doesn’t know anyone of those things 😂

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

My club has white tees at 6,350 and gold tees at 5,600.  Lots of the older guys don't want to play the sissy gold tees, but 6,350 is too long, particularly in the fall or spring.  I think that the club is going to come up with a combined set that will play 6,000, or just short of that.

 

How is making them hit it shorter going to help that? Those gold tees are still going to be the "sissy" ones.

[Dutch1008]

23 hours ago, radiman said:

There are a few players out there that bite off more than they can chew.  I honestly am usually surprised by that accusation.  Because I never see the lesser skilled players that I encounter eager to make the game more difficult by moving to the tips.  

 

I somewhat agree. I don't think people choose the blacks/tournament/tips all that often. However, I think there is an enormous amount of people that are playing the blue tees when the should be playing the whites, as well as a lot of seniors and beginners/kids that play the whites but should be on the reds. 

 

I agree w/ you that red tees being known as the ladies tees, is a problem. They should scratch it all together. 

 

Black - Championship Tees (7000+)

Blue - Tournament Tees (6500-7000)

White - Member Tees (6000-6500)

Gold - Senior Tees (5000-6000)

Silver - Junior Tees (4000-5000)

 

Blue/White share a tee box, Gold/Silver share a tee box. Not every course needs the black tees. 

[StoutKing]

7 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I somewhat agree. I don't think people choose the blacks/tournament/tips all that often. However, I think there is an enormous amount of people that are playing the blue tees when the should be playing the whites, as well as a lot of seniors and beginners/kids that play the whites but should be on the reds. 

 

I agree w/ you that red tees being known as the ladies tees, is a problem. They should scratch it all together. 

 

Black - Championship Tees (7000+)

Blue - Tournament Tees (6500-7000)

White - Member Tees (6000-6500)

Gold - Senior Tees (5000-6000)

Silver - Junior Tees (4000-5000)

 

Blue/White share a tee box, Gold/Silver share a tee box. Not every course needs the black tees. 

Just flip the colors.  Recently played a world top 50 course and here's what they had:

 

Low handicap - black

5-10 - red

11-16 - white

17+ blue

 

Handicaps are approximate but that's the idea.  I gladly played the reds

[Pnwpingi210]

6 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I somewhat agree. I don't think people choose the blacks/tournament/tips all that often. However, I think there is an enormous amount of people that are playing the blue tees when the should be playing the whites, as well as a lot of seniors and beginners/kids that play the whites but should be on the reds. 

 

I agree w/ you that red tees being known as the ladies tees, is a problem. They should scratch it all together. 

 

Black - Championship Tees (7000+)

Blue - Tournament Tees (6500-7000)

White - Member Tees (6000-6500)

Gold - Senior Tees (5000-6000)

Silver - Junior Tees (4000-5000)

 

Blue/White share a tee box, Gold/Silver share a tee box. Not every course needs the black tees. 

 

I agree with changing the red to silver and most public courses don’t put the blacks out often.

 

how about we sues how far you hit it vs. age of member/tournament designations.
 

black 275+
Blue 240-275

white 220-240

gold 200-220

silver less than 200

[mgoblue83]

On 4/2/2024 at 11:21 PM, bekgolf said:

Like most golf fans I don't see the problem.  Men's professional golf is fun to watch as it is right now.  We are seeing the best golfers in exciting competition every weekend.  It requires great skill.  Why change that? 

 

 

This is just false.

 

1. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because of the PGA/LIV split. Leaderboards have very little star power and ratings are down across the board.

 

2. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because the pros very rarely face a situation that requires true shot making. It's all bomb and gouge or lay up and have a wedge anyway. When is that last time a pro actually had to hit a long iron into a par 4?

 

[Dutch1008]

6 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

This is just false.

 

1. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because of the PGA/LIV split. Leaderboards have very little star power and ratings are down across the board.

 

2. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because the pros very rarely face a situation that requires true shot making. It's all bomb and gouge or lay up and have a wedge anyway. When is that last time a pro actually had to hit a long iron into a par 4?

 

 

My favorite shot from last year was Rory smoking a 4i into 30mph winds to close out the Scottish Open. So #2 still happens. Just far less than it should 😉 

[bekgolf]

7 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This is just false.

 

1. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because of the PGA/LIV split. Leaderboards have very little star power and ratings are down across the board.

 

2. Golf is NOT fun to watch right now because the pros very rarely face a situation that requires true shot making. It's all bomb and gouge or lay up and have a wedge anyway. When is that last time a pro actually had to hit a long iron into a par 4?

 

 

So we disagree?  That's how it is sometimes.  I miss Rahm and Bryson but they made their decision.  They decided they didn't need fans, nothing I can do about that.

 

I see great shots every weekend on the PGA Tour.

[mgoblue83]

Just now, Dutch1008 said:

 

My favorite shot from last year was Rory smoking a 4i into 30mph winds to close out the Scottish Open. So #2 still happens. Just far less than it should 😉 

 

That's exactly my point and it's why I am in favor of the roll back.

 

#5 at Augusta is another one that plays long enough to actually test the players but wouldn't it be great if the pros were actually challenged on a regular basis?