Lost Ball?

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Let me give this a try/guess.

 

Is there any status called "found" ? Don't see it in the definitions. I believe the ball is not deemed considered found until it's identified.

 

So the ball in the shrubs, not yet identified, has NO status (yet). IF it's identified as the player's ball, it is then the "ball in play". If it's not his ball it (again) has no status.

 

You didn't mention how far the player went using E-5, but I think, if he drops a ball using E-5 I believe that now becomes the ball in play and the original ball is now lost.

I'd say that the "other" ball is either the Player's ball In Play, or is a Wrong Ball.  The only way to tell the difference is by looking at it to identify it.  And when a Player Substitutes a Ball, it is immediately In Play, and the original ball is now a Wrong Ball.  

[DaveLeeNC]

Thanks for the comments, @davep043. Whether it is reasonable or not to identify the ball would be an on the ground decision, I assume. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not this case (again assuming that a RO or The Committee agrees that identifying the ball is not feasible) is a proper application of MLR E-5? The sequence is .... 

 

1) Tee shot over the hill and maybe in light rough or maybe in much thicker stuff (but still in the General Area). 

 

2) Player does a quick search and is KVC that his ball is not in the light rough and there is time still left on the clock. 

 

3) Player takes a glance at the 'thick stuff' to decide the Ball Reference Point for applying E-5 (still time left on the clock). At this point he sees a ball that might (or might not be his). There are no distinctive markings visible or missing WRT his ball vs the found ball. 

 

4) He applies E-5 as he cannot (for whatever reason) get to the found ball for identification. 

 

Thanks.

 

dave

 

ps. I am guessing that if the USGA intended for a lost ball to be not found by definition, that would have been discussed in the workshop. 

 

 

 

 

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Thanks for the comments, @davep043. Whether it is reasonable or not to identify the ball would be an on the ground decision, I assume. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not this case (again assuming that a RO or The Committee agrees that identifying the ball is not feasible) is a proper application of MLR E-5? The sequence is .... 

 

1) Tee shot over the hill and maybe in light rough or maybe in much thicker stuff (but still in the General Area). 

 

2) Player does a quick search and is KVC that his ball is not in the light rough and there is time still left on the clock. 

 

3) Player takes a glance at the 'thick stuff' to decide the Ball Reference Point for applying E-5 (still time left on the clock). At this point he sees a ball that might (or might not be his). There are no distinctive markings visible or missing WRT his ball vs the found ball. 

 

4) He applies E-5 as he cannot (for whatever reason) get to the found ball for identification. 

 

Thanks.

 

dave

 

ps. I am guessing that if the USGA intended for a lost ball to be not found by definition, that would have been discussed in the workshop. 

I'd say that if the player cannot get close enough to identify his ball, it will "become" lost at the expiration of the search time.  The Rule says the Player must "promptly attempt to identify" the ball, he's not required to crawl through bushes and brambles to do so.  Once he's attempted that, I'd have no issue with the Player proceeding with E-5 relief, even though the original ball isn't Lost because the time hasn't expired.  Alternatively, the ball will become a Wrong Ball as soon as he Substitutes another ball with the intent for the other ball to be in play, which is acceptable under E-5.

 

[sui generis]

15 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

ps. I am guessing that if the USGA intended for a lost ball to be not found by definition, that would have been discussed in the workshop. 

 

This is fun. All "lost" balls are "not found" according to the Definition of Lost, but all "not found" balls are not "lost."

[DaveLeeNC]

Thanks again, @davep043.  dave

[rogolf]

IIRC, in the USGA discussions on "status of ball", there were only four "stati" available?

[davep043]

28 minutes ago, rogolf said:

IIRC, in the USGA discussions on "status of ball", there were only four "stati" available?

That's the way I remember it too, two that I'd call "primary", and two more that I think of as subsets of the primary.

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Dave, maybe you can answer this (mostly motivated by curiosity) question. Take the case of a drive that lands (and is assumed to lie) in the General Area of the course. It might be light rough or it might be in some really heavy stuff (no line of sight off the tee). 

 

The player does not hit a provisional and intends to apply MLR E-5 if he cannot 'locate' (I used this English word intentionally) his ball. The moderate rough is pretty thin and he quickly gets to KVC that his ball is not in the rough (3 minutes not yet gone). 

 

He begins his E-5 process to find his drop point in the fairway when he sees a ball in the thick stuff that could be (or not) his ball. So as I understand it his ball is now found but not identified. 

 

E-5 ONLY covers balls not found or out of bounds. So he would only be allowed to apply E-5 if he were able to identify the visible ball as not his. 18.2a(1) would seem to require that he try to identify the ball. If he cannot do that  (ball in the middle of thorny bushes would be a common reason in our area) then his ball is lost (but nothing has changed its found status??). And E-5 (as I read it) does not cover this case (ball must be not found or OB). 

 

Did I get this right? Or does a found ball that cannot be identified (in a palm tree would be another common example in some areas) become not found once it becomes lost? BTW, I don't expect to run into it on the course but it seems like something that might be covered in a one hour discussion of ball status.

 

Thanks.

 

dave

 

While the discussion forthwith is illuminating, I wonder in what situation a player would choose not to identify his ball (potentially a ball requiring taking an unplayable, invoking a 1-stroke penalty), in order to invoke MLR E-5 (a two stroke penalty)? 

 

I suppose because there is no E-5 relief for an unplayable, and thus if the ball is in a location where it is impossible to drop within 2 clubs lengths such that it becomes playable, or would be playable but the penalty stroke plus the only acceptable line of play (perhaps backwards) would effectively be a second penalty stroke but put him in worse position than E-5, the player would be forced into S&D?

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

While the discussion forthwith is illuminating, I wonder in what situation a player would choose not to identify his ball (potentially a ball requiring taking an unplayable, invoking a 1-stroke penalty), in order to invoke MLR E-5 (a two stroke penalty)? 

 

I suppose because there is no E-5 relief for an unplayable, and thus if the ball is in a location where it is impossible to drop within 2 clubs lengths such that it becomes playable, or would be playable but the penalty stroke plus the only acceptable line of play (perhaps backwards) would effectively be a second penalty stroke but put him in worse position than E-5, the player would be forced into S&D?

in the example the player was unable to reach the ball to identify. But in many cases of MLR E-5, your drop will put you in the fairway laying 3 and maybe your S&D drive would be that good - or maybe not. Still laying 3. 

 

I can imagine a case where you were trying to cut a dogleg and your E-5 drop might be where it would take an exceptional drive to reach the same place. In other cases your E-5 drop might be only a 5 iron off the tee. 

 

dave

[betarhoalphadelta]

@DaveLeeNC Ahh. In this case I thought it was merely a choice to not identify, not that it was just flat out infeasible to get to the ball due to conditions. 

 

But I guess per @davep043 if it is feasible to identify a ball located within the search area, you're required to by the rules. So there shouldn't be "choice" in the equation...

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

in the example the player was unable to reach the ball to identify. But in many cases of MLR E-5, your drop will put you in the fairway laying 3 and maybe your S&D drive would be that good - or maybe not. Still laying 3. 

 

I can imagine a case where you were trying to cut a dogleg and your E-5 drop might be where it would take an exceptional drive to reach the same place. In other cases your E-5 drop might be only a 5 iron off the tee. 

 

dave

 

As you know, E-5 wouldn't be used in a high level tournament and is used in casual play and lower level tournaments to keep play moving.

 

If E-5 is being used, your example would be similar to a lucky break. I mean, without E-5, a guy could hit 2 or 3 more balls lost or OB and make a 15 on a hole. E-5 prevents that.

 

But in your specific example, if the guy CLEARED the tree tops and was lost in the woods beyond and dropped out past the dogleg, it is easy to assume (E-5-wise) he'd have done it a 2nd time and been IN the fairway lying 3.

 

If he hadn't cleared the tree tops and crashed the ball into them, the part of the fairway he'd likely be dropping in might still be blocking his path to the green anyway.

 

Luck of the draw.

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

So the ball in the shrubs, not yet identified, has NO status (yet). IF it's identified as the player's ball, it is then the "ball in play". If it's not his ball it (again) has no status.

 

 

Sure it has, and not only one. According to Definitions it is a Wrong Ball, Outside Influence and a Movable Obstruction.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sure it has, and not only one. According to Definitions it is a Wrong Ball, Outside Influence and a Movable Obstruction.

 

 

It is a bit more complicated. A ball seen but not identified is a movable obstruction and it is an outside influence. It may or may not be a wrong ball (includes stray) or a ball in play.

[Colin L]

18 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

So the ball in the shrubs, not yet identified, has NO status (yet). IF it's identified as the player's ball, it is then the "ball in play". If it's not his ball it (again) has no status.

 

 

if it is the player's ball, it doesn't become his ball in play when he finds and identifies it.  If it on the course, it is his ball in play all the time it is in hiding.  That is its status while "not found"   until something happens that puts it out of play - like 3 minutes have elapsed,  a provisional is played from nearer the hole or another ball has been substituted.   

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, antip said:

It is a bit more complicated. A ball seen but not identified is a movable obstruction and it is an outside influence. It may or may not be a wrong ball (includes stray) or a ball in play.

 

It was said that it was identified as NOT the player's ball. It is then a Wrong Ball.

[antip]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It was said that it was identified as NOT the player's ball. It is then a Wrong Ball.

I commented on precisely what you put in your post, nothing more, nothing less.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

I commented on precisely what you put in your post, nothing more, nothing less.

 

I don't follow. Nsxguy wrote this:

 

"IF it's identified as the player's ball, it is then the "ball in play". If it's not his ball it (again) has no status."

 

Note: "If it's not his ball...".  As it is not his ball it is a Wrong Ball. Nothing complicated in that.

 

Sure, a ball not yet identified may be a ball in play or a wrong ball. In nsxguy's text it was identified not to be a ball in play.

 

[antip]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I don't follow. Nsxguy wrote this:

 

"IF it's identified as the player's ball, it is then the "ball in play". If it's not his ball it (again) has no status."

 

Note: "If it's not his ball...".  As it is not his ball it is a Wrong Ball. Nothing complicated in that.

 

Sure, a ball not yet identified may be a ball in play or a wrong ball. In nsxguy's text it was identified not to be a ball in play.

 

My error, I misread the quoted words.

[limegreengent]

Oh my God , this thread might be coming to an end! .We better start discussing the status of “ beating a dead horse”😴😴😴😴😴

[antip]

1 hour ago, limegreengent said:

Oh my God , this thread might be coming to an end! .We better start discussing the status of “ beating a dead horse”😴😴😴😴😴

Don't knock it, a genuine rules discussion on this site is becoming as rare as hen's teeth. And the book's guidance (sic) on when/if/how search commences is highly fertile ground. I find the extreme paucity of guidance in this space to be astonishing.

[DaveLeeNC]

Interesting side note here. As of 10:20 a.m. (EDT) on 4/2/23 both a Google Search and Bing search on the text string usga rules of golf definitions gives as its first response a link to the 2019 USGA definitions page. This could change at any moment but that is how it works right now (for me using the Edge browser). I needed to look up a definition and that seemed the fastest way to get there (rather than follow a couple of USGA.org links). Maybe not. 

 

dave

 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[nsxguy]

On 3/31/2023 at 8:35 PM, antip said:

Don't knock it, a genuine rules discussion on this site is becoming as rare as hen's teeth. And the book's guidance (sic) on when/if/how search commences is highly fertile ground. I find the extreme paucity of guidance in this space to be astonishing.

 

I played this past Friday. Hole 6 at the course is an almost drive-able par 4 down breeze. I hit a pretty good drive against a somewhat significant breeze.

 

I was riding alone as part of a 3-some. For a change, all 3 of us hit our drives on roughly the same line, mine being a bit left of theirs.

 

So I'm riding out there first, come upon their 2 balls about 10 yards apart on the fairway, maybe 50 short of the green and I don't see mine.

 

I start driving ahead to locate mine, and I think of this very thread, so I stopped. I did NOT drive any further because I didn't want to start searching alone, just in case.

 

Now, it was likely I'd have "found" it pretty easily anyway, but there was a cart path to the left and some higher rough - and while this is a pretty informal/"friendly" game, and likely nobody would've been concerned about the 3 minutes search time, I was playing it "safe" ?

 

Or was I purposely delaying my search time ?

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Interesting side note here. As of 10:20 a.m. (EDT) on 4/2/23 both a Google Search and Bing search on the text string usga rules of golf definitions gives as its first response a link to the 2019 USGA definitions page. This could change at any moment but that is how it works right now (for me using the Edge browser). I needed to look up a definition and that seemed the fastest way to get there (rather than follow a couple of USGA.org links). Maybe not. 

 

dave

 

 

 

Yes, Same thing happened in the beginning of 2019.

 

I believe Google's algorithms do not always take into consideration the dates of the publication of the links they provide and one must be careful.

 

I've found the "key" is to look for the word "interpretations". If you see it you're in the wrong place.

 

Because of the Google results, I bookmarked the new 2023 Rules. One can also preface a search such as yours with 2023 and you should be good to go.

 

 

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I played this past Friday. Hole 6 at the course is an almost drive-able par 4 down breeze. I hit a pretty good drive against a somewhat significant breeze.

 

I was riding alone as part of a 3-some. For a change, all 3 of us hit our drives on roughly the same line, mine being a bit left of theirs.

 

So I'm riding out there first, come upon their 2 balls about 10 yards apart on the fairway, maybe 50 short of the green and I don't see mine.

 

I start driving ahead to locate mine, and I think of this very thread, so I stopped. I did NOT drive any further because I didn't want to start searching alone, just in case.

 

Now, it was likely I'd have "found" it pretty easily anyway, but there was a cart path to the left and some higher rough - and while this is a pretty informal/"friendly" game, and likely nobody would've been concerned about the 3 minutes search time, I was playing it "safe" ?

 

Or was I purposely delaying my search time ?

My opinion - you were deliberately delaying the start of the search in order to allow other people to search on your behalf.  See definition of "lost".

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

My opinion - you were deliberately delaying the start of the search in order to allow other people to search on your behalf.  See definition of "lost".

 

Thanks. Actually thought that might be the case.

 

So intent, as well as integrity (as in knowing one's thinking, if not actual actions), does matter sometimes,,,,, and not others. Guess I already knew that.

 

So, even if I had NOT briefly started forward AT ALL, I'd have been in breach, yes ?

 

Oh well. No skin on that hole and I didn't win any low net/gross money. So I guess all's well that ends well ?

[rogolf]

31 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Thanks. Actually thought that might be the case.

 

So intent, as well as integrity (as in knowing one's thinking, if not actual actions), does matter sometimes,,,,, and not others. Guess I already knew that.

 

So, even if I had NOT briefly started forward AT ALL, I'd have been in breach, yes ?

 

Oh well. No skin on that hole and I didn't win any low net/gross money. So I guess all's well that ends well ?

Yes, it's intent and integrity.  You'll know it when you do it.

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Yes, it's intent and integrity.  You'll know it when you do it.

 

It brings up an interesting moral dilemma.

 

So even had I not gone any farther and simply stopped at the first ball I found, "knowing" my ball was off to the left and farther up (somewhere), but not doing anything else until both their balls were hit towards the green, "knowing" they would help in any search, I'm still in breach.

 

Gotta wonder how often this happens ?

 

And how many players even know they've broken a rule ?

 

And how one "turns off" one's brain ?

[st1800e]

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

It brings up an interesting moral dilemma.

 

So even had I not gone any farther and simply stopped at the first ball I found, "knowing" my ball was off to the left and farther up (somewhere), but not doing anything else until both their balls were hit towards the green, "knowing" they would help in any search, I'm still in breach.

 

Gotta wonder how often this happens ?

 

And how many players even know they've broken a rule ?

 

And how one "turns off" one's brain ?

So now we have the “thought police”.  You didn’t actually “know” where your ball was. As in the example that started this thread, it would make perfect sense to stop at the 2 balls and identify them, before looking for the third ball. 

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

It brings up an interesting moral dilemma.

 

So even had I not gone any farther and simply stopped at the first ball I found, "knowing" my ball was off to the left and farther up (somewhere), but not doing anything else until both their balls were hit towards the green, "knowing" they would help in any search, I'm still in breach.

 

Gotta wonder how often this happens ?

 

And how many players even know they've broken a rule ?

 

And how one "turns off" one's brain ?

 

With all respect, what do you think your problem is?

 

IMO, you do not want to be honest and act with integrity. If you hit a poor shot you do not want to live with it but try to find a way to cheat.

 

I hope I am well off and very wrong, but that is the impression I got from your posts.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

With all respect, what do you think your problem is?

 

IMO, you do not want to be honest and act with integrity. If you hit a poor shot you do not want to live with it but try to find a way to cheat.

 

I hope I am well off and very wrong, but that is the impression I got from your posts.

 

 

We seem speak different forms of English at times.

 

I'm trying to understand how you believe I want to cheat.

 

Perhaps re-phrasing would help ?

 

I am not away, I have not yet begun to search, I'm not "in the area", and I am observing proper order of play because they are ready to hit.

 

The question is, knowing my ball is further forward and a bit to the left, and even unlikely not to be easily "found", how do I turn off my brain realizing they both would likely help me look ?