Is putting skill something you are "born with" or something that you learn?

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I used to putt that way.  When I thought I could putt.  Lol.    Then stats came along and told me how bad I was.  Been shat ever since.  I’m still that way on approach.  Just no trust.  Every single time you try to let go it turns into a 3 putt fest.  No distance is safe from the 3 putt.    I really shouldn’t post anymore.  I’m a mess and it’s plain to see. So I ramble.    It’s turned into an unhealthy place to be and/or use of time. So much so that I haven’t signed up for a single event this summer because I don’t want to deal with the fallout.  It’s a shame because I don’t recall ever having a bag full of clubs I hit better. Wouldn’t change 13 of them if I was offered things for free. 

 

 

... Been there with my driver swing so I sympathize. 🤪  Try the eyes closed putting I recommended and see if that helps get putting out of your head. 

(I wish I could join you and Big Stu for a round. You could marvel at my putting and I could marvel at your ball striking and Biggins' shot selection!) 

Edited May 14, 2023 by chisag

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

If I’m honest. Yes.  6 yard variance with a 9 iron as far as distance control isn’t good. That’s 18 feet. I could take 18 feet side to side much easier.  And I realize that is the reality of the good vs bad of a good approach players. But to answer. Yes. I’m not pleased with the front to back “ miss” that 18-20 feet with a short iron is.  Now. Does it mean I throw a fit ? No.  It’s just how it is. I’ll adjust and flush the next one.  Or if it’s long and the ball is traveling I’ll adjust club next time. 
 

that's really my whole point. I can adjust and hone in the miss on approach.  Can’t do that with a putt.  You can stand and roll 10 20 footers in a row and not get the same result from  any of them.  Depending on the putt.  Several will be long.  Several short and some mishits that are just off all over. The finality of putting makes it different.  If you make no putts. You can never reach your possible potential in this game.  Some of us make nothing. Except rare days when they all go in with no real reason why.    I just wonder. What those people think that make putts every round?  

Blade, that 6 yard variance in distance control isn’t good to you?  That’s only 9 feet off…..3 yards short to 3 yards long is 6 yards.  Tour pros are off by a lot more than that.

 

20 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

I used to be a horrible putter as a kid growing up.  Essentially I would put cut spin on it by putting an OTT stroke on the ball.  My college coach taught me to put in an arc ala Crenshaw and my putting improved drastically.  Went from an 8 in high school, down to a 2 in college.  My putting is still the strongest part of my game and I average 35 putts per round.  So to those out there that are mediocre putters, there's hope. 

I gotta ask…do you hit a buttload of greens in regulation?  35 putts per round average is a lot imo.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

That’s pretty much same as me.  But that thought comes with a conscious or subconscious path to get there.  So there’s read , speed and end target.  So im not seeing a difference in my thinking.  
 

do you use line on the ball ?  

Can't shut your subconscious off . I'm just letting my computer in the brain do the calculations to get the ball there. Which is does, more or less.  Remember we're talking about over the ball. 

 

If you're subconscious is like this then it's not your subconscious: 

k4Ipv2L3iwg

 

Think of it this way, if you throw a ball  you aren't thinking about where your release point is, how much you snap your wrist , how far the ball will curve, you're looking at your buddy's glove.  

 

I do use line 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I don't like to think of mechanics at all when I'm over the ball on the course. That end result is usually an over exaggeration resulting in a bad miss. 

That’s you. That’s not everyone.

[bladehunter]

19 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Blade, that 6 yard variance in distance control isn’t good to you?  That’s only 9 feet off…..3 yards short to 3 yards long is 6 yards.  Tour pros are off by a lot more than that.

 

I gotta ask…do you hit a buttload of greens in regulation?  35 putts per round average is a lot imo.

We both know I’m a poor communicator. I never said it wasn’t great. It is.my stats for everything except putting and driving are above my pay grade according to decade. I’m positive strokes gained in all shortgame stats.  
 

But I see that 6 yards as 18 feet off. And it’s because  of the style greens I see.  I’m personally  not happy with any distance control miss. Short is short. Long is long.  So I adjust.  I play hole high. That’s just me. And what the courses I learned to play on dictate as best.  under the hole usually means a false front.  Long usually means a hard lag on a back to front sloping green.  Hole high is where the makable putts are. And where the side boards will kick to the hole. On a different style green complex I’d have to adjust.  I’m sure.  And nobody is saying I don’t make poor swings. I do. And nobody is saying I average overall a 18 feet proximity.  Just saying in the imaginary scene. I’m not thrilled with a long or short miss of 6 yards.  I’m probably cussing under my breath it means I misclubbed.  Or skanked a shot.  

 

yes. I hit a ton of greens. I average 2 par 5s hit in two as well.  Less than 11 hit is an off day.  Hitting 15 isn’t rare. I’ve hit 17 in comp , never 18.  I’d kill to average less than 32 a round. 

 

[phizzy30]

Just now, Shilgy said:

Blade, that 6 yard variance in distance control isn’t good to you?  That’s only 9 feet off…..3 yards short to 3 yards long is 6 yards.  Tour pros are off by a lot more than that.

 

I gotta ask…do you hit a buttload of greens in regulation?  35 putts per round average is a lot imo.

How is 35 putts per round a lot?  I own my own business and don't have the time to practice 4-5 days a week like I used to when I was on my college team.  35 putts is two putting every green minus one which is decent for a hacker such as myself being a 4 cap with the little time I have to practice. 

[bladehunter]

20 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Can't shut your subconscious off . I'm just letting my computer in the brain do the calculations to get the ball there. Which is does, more or less.  Remember we're talking about over the ball. 

 

If you're subconscious is like this then it's not your subconscious: 

k4Ipv2L3iwg

 

Think of it this way, if you throw a ball  you aren't thinking about where your release point is, how much you snap your wrist , how far the ball will curve, you're looking at your buddy's glove.  

 

I do use line 

No. It runs in my sleep.  I literally think 24/7.  Can’t you tell by my post count. ? ( not a joke !)  ( that part was a joke 😅).  
 

see. I think using the line indicates more thought than I put in.  Lol. Not trying to be flippant, just my opinion.  Lining that line up takes a minute or 3.  For me.  And requires loads of thought.  

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, phizzy30 said:

How is 35 putts per round a lot?  I own my own business and don't have the time to practice 4-5 days a week like I used to when I was on my college team.  35 putts is two putting every green minus one which is decent for a hacker such as myself being a 4 cap with the little time I have to practice. 

That’s the point though…4 handicap you hit what? I would think a good ballstriker 4 will average 9-10 greens in regulation?  Let’s call it 10.  Get up and down half the time of the 8 missed greens and you’d use 32 putts making zero birdies to shoot 4 over.  Most of the time you’d likely hit fewer greens than that which would lower your number of putts.

[phizzy30]

Just now, Shilgy said:

That’s the point though…4 handicap you hit what? I would think a good ballstriker 4 will average 9-10 greens in regulation?  Let’s call it 10.  Get up and down half the time of the 8 missed greens and you’d use 32 putts making zero birdies to shoot 4 over.  Most of the time you’d likely hit fewer greens than that which would lower your number of putts.

My driver gets me in trouble.  I use 3 metal off the tee every chance I get.  Decent ball striker with irons.  Pitching and chipping are better than average.  My proximity to hole isn't great because I play to the fat part of the green most of the time.  As a result, my putter bails me out.

Edited May 14, 2023 by phizzy30

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

No. It runs in my sleep.  I literally think 24/7.  Can’t you tell by my post count. ? ( not a joke !)  ( that part was a joke 😅).  
 

see. I think using the line indicates more thought than I put in.  Lol. Not trying to be flippant, just my opinion.  Lining that line up takes a minute or 3.  For me.  And requires loads of thought.  

You had putting figured out when using the tour Cameron but switched to a LAB?  Maybe your stroke rolled the other putter better?

 

Heres my 2 cents from a good putter.  Ditch the line…ditch the putter-go back to either the 009 or something similar…and quit trying so hard!

 

There is not an exact “line” you must hit on a putt. The hole is 4.25” wide.  Be confident you will make the comeback putt if you miss and be aggressive.

 

The idea when putting is to hit the ball a chosen speed along a chosen alley.  NOT to try to “make” a putt.  So choose a alley and speed and roll the ball.

[SNIPERBBB]

15 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

No. It runs in my sleep.  I literally think 24/7.  Can’t you tell by my post count. ? ( not a joke !)  ( that part was a joke 😅).  
 

see. I think using the line indicates more thought than I put in.  Lol. Not trying to be flippant, just my opinion.  Lining that line up takes a minute or 3.  For me.  And requires loads of thought.  

Well again that's before you're over the ball. Over the ball you should have no thoughts, no ideas, kind like the scene from hitchhikers. If you do get an idea, you should get hit in the face with a fly swatter. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Can't shut your subconscious off . I'm just letting my computer in the brain do the calculations to get the ball there. Which is does, more or less.  Remember we're talking about over the ball. 

 

If you're subconscious is like this then it's not your subconscious: 

k4Ipv2L3iwg

 

Think of it this way, if you throw a ball  you aren't thinking about where your release point is, how much you snap your wrist , how far the ball will curve, you're looking at your buddy's glove.  

 

I do use line 

Billy Billy Billy, Billy Billy Billy

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Well again that's before you're over the ball. Over the ball you should have no thoughts, no ideas, kind like the scene from hitchhikers. If you do get an idea, you should get hit in the face with a fly swatter. 

I watched that the other night:

I think that the flyswatters would improve putting quite a bit.  A person would be so worried about getting swatted that the putting would be an after thought and not something to worry about...

[iacas]

2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

How is 35 putts per round a lot?

 

Because it (probably) is?

 

But maybe your course has huge greens, somewhat falsely inflating GIR numbers and making for more difficult first putts. Or your short game is quite bad. Either you, you probably have some low hanging fruit. Most likely putting, could be short game or something else.

[ChaosTheory]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

Because it (probably) is?

 

But maybe your course has huge greens, somewhat falsely inflating GIR numbers and making for more difficult first putts. Or your short game is quite bad. Either you, you probably have some low hanging fruit. Most likely putting, could be short game or something else.

He’s probably counting fringe putts.

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You had putting figured out when using the tour Cameron but switched to a LAB?  Maybe your stroke rolled the other putter better?

 

Heres my 2 cents from a good putter.  Ditch the line…ditch the putter-go back to either the 009 or something similar…and quit trying so hard!

 

There is not an exact “line” you must hit on a putt. The hole is 4.25” wide.  Be confident you will make the comeback putt if you miss and be aggressive.

 

The idea when putting is to hit the ball a chosen speed along a chosen alley.  NOT to try to “make” a putt.  So choose a alley and speed and roll the ball.

I hear the idea.  But I just changed that signature yesterday. That putter hasn’t seen the course yet. 😆.  The 009 has been the ONLY putter I have had on course in months.

so it’s not the LAB putters fault.  That’s just a last ditch effort for a new feel that might not connect to the pain.
 

 I lost in the first round of the match play bracket last weekend to a guy I gave 13 shots to.  And I struck it well enough on the front to be 6 under if I made the statistical average amount per length that I had.  It included 2 3 putt pars on par 5s. A missed 4 footer for birdie on a par 4 that resulted in 4 feet coming back.  And a 30 foot bomb I made for birdie on the 3rd hole.  
 

on the back.  It was laughable.  

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Snowman9000 said:

He’s probably counting fringe putts.

 

Could be, yeah.

[phizzy30]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Because it (probably) is?

 

But maybe your course has huge greens, somewhat falsely inflating GIR numbers and making for more difficult first putts. Or your short game is quite bad. Either you, you probably have some low hanging fruit. Most likely putting, could be short game or something else.

I think there's some confusion going on here.  If you're trying to compare me to a pro, then yes 35 putts is a lot.  So are you trying to say that as a 4 cap my putt count should be much lower?  Well, it isn't.  Like I said before, I have some deficiencies in other areas of my game but putting is what saves my a**. 

 

[phizzy30]

50 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

He’s probably counting fringe putts.

 

Just now, iacas said:

 

Could be, yeah.

That's a valid point.  I do count those.  Thanks for pointing that out.  So my putt count should be a little bit lower then. 

[bcjim]

Don't really practice putting and I'm a decent putter. 

 

Do practice irons, at least more than I practice putting,  and I'm not a great ball striker.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I hear the idea.  But I just changed that signature yesterday. That putter hasn’t seen the course yet. 😆.  The 009 has been the ONLY putter I have had on course in months.

so it’s not the LAB putters fault.  That’s just a last ditch effort for a new feel that might not connect to the pain.
 

 I lost in the first round of the match play bracket last weekend to a guy I gave 13 shots to.  And I struck it well enough on the front to be 6 under if I made the statistical average amount per length that I had.  It included 2 3 putt pars on par 5s. A missed 4 footer for birdie on a par 4 that resulted in 4 feet coming back.  And a 30 foot bomb I made for birdie on the 3rd hole.  
 

on the back.  It was laughable.  

So you have speed control issues is how I read that.  Nothing matters more than speed, nothing.  You cannot have a line read if you don’t know what speed it’s going when it gets to the hole.

 

So thats #1 for you to work on.  It’s very rare to three putt if your speed is correct.

[PracticeSwinger]

22 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Please hear this as a question. Not an attack. At all.  You struck a nerve. And I’d like to pick at the idea a bit , hopefully to understand it.  
 

“ most good putters don’t “.    Do you mean most won’t make 1 of those 5 ?   

Great insight and didn't see it as an attack. My point was just on managing expectations from a purely statistical point of view, and if players would see it that way, the bigger picture is that I truly believe it would help them psychologically and confidence wise.

 

Again, to go back at the dataset, we're looking at a great ball striker that hit 5 GIR in a row, all to 15-20 feet and can't convert one birdie, gets 5 Pars and you hear them all too often "Can't get a 15-20 footer to drop today to save my life!" That, to me is what is draining their confidence and they tend to believe that they're a bad putter. With that type of ball striking they should be running away with their Club championship, their friends money, the bragging rights, heck they could be on Tour... That trickles down to pushing it, need that approach to be at 8 feet max, short sided, bogey... you get the idea

 

On those stats (from ShotScope), a scratch player drains a 20 footer, 14% of the time... a 10cap, 10%.

Obviously, all putts aren't created equal, but the overall idea here is that if we convert those to probabilities on 5 holes:

 

Scratch : making none of these : 46%... making exactly one : 38%... making more than one : 15%

10cap : making none of these : 58%... making exactly one : 33%... making more than one : 9%

 

So, you can be frustrated that two of these burned an edge and your mindset should always be that this one / the next will drop, just don't overreact and conclude that you're the worst putter from that Country club and should jump into that pond on number 17...

 

 

[Nard_S]

Delegating stroke control over to other parts of body has been a big positive for me. I'm still right hand dominant but shoulders and lead hand play a much larger role. Consistency went way up once it took. I spent time to break down the technical but for the most part I never think technically on the green. 

[Shilgy]

10 hours ago, bcjim said:

Don't really practice putting and I'm a decent putter. 

 

Do practice irons, at least more than I practice putting,  and I'm not a great ball striker.

You stole my post!😎

[IndyArcher]

20 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

Then get this song stuck in your head every time you’re on the putting green. That should do it. My work is done here. 🙂

 

 

 

In your head? No need for such constricting limitations. Blast it for the whole course to hear. It's acceptable now and it will make us all better putters! 

[RoyalMustang]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:29 PM, phizzy30 said:

You and I would make really good playing partners then.  I like beating balls but love to putt because that's where I win my bets.  It's also what turns what should be an 80 into a 76.  You know any suckers that want to play a money match? LOL.   

 

Ha-let's do it! I always joke about that with a couple of my playing partners. I would be a very good teammate for someone who has a solid short game and great putting game. 

 

I played in a tournament last weekend, and counted 6 missed putts between 8-12 feet and 5 missed putts from 5-8 feet. I made 3 five footers and a couple of 15 footers. None of these missed were tough putts: I am just offline consistently. At least the good thing is that I was throwing darts and had a ton of birdie opportunities, which inevitably turns into a low-stress par for me. I made 3 birdies but my playing partner said it should have been 5 minimum, had I been able to putt.  

 

I shot a 76 and tied for first. On the first playoff hole, I played aggressively with a 3-wood but hooked it into a hazard, which left me 120 yards hitting my third shot. I flush my GW, leaving me 6 feet to save par and push the playoff to another hole. Of course I miss it. On the last 3 holes, I missed 3 putts all under 10 feet that would have won my flight. 

 

I never felt "tight", just inconsistent from putt to putt. I had a few good "wow, I was centered with my body and struck it on line" feelings; those all went in. But I can't generate that feel consistently 

 

I am going to try an open putting stance today: I feel like I am rocking and perhaps if I get more weight and open to the target, I will be more stable. I can hit an open stance flop shot all day long with my wedge, so perhaps there is something with open hips that just "works" for me. I also hit my longest drives with an open stance: I can just get the hips through better. 

 

 

[RoyalMustang]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Great insight and didn't see it as an attack. My point was just on managing expectations from a purely statistical point of view, and if players would see it that way, the bigger picture is that I truly believe it would help them psychologically and confidence wise.

 

Again, to go back at the dataset, we're looking at a great ball striker that hit 5 GIR in a row, all to 15-20 feet and can't convert one birdie, gets 5 Pars and you hear them all too often "Can't get a 15-20 footer to drop today to save my life!" That, to me is what is draining their confidence and they tend to believe that they're a bad putter. With that type of ball striking they should be running away with their Club championship, their friends money, the bragging rights, heck they could be on Tour... That trickles down to pushing it, need that approach to be at 8 feet max, short sided, bogey... you get the idea

 

On those stats (from ShotScope), a scratch player drains a 20 footer, 14% of the time... a 10cap, 10%.

Obviously, all putts aren't created equal, but the overall idea here is that if we convert those to probabilities on 5 holes:

 

Scratch : making none of these : 46%... making exactly one : 38%... making more than one : 15%

10cap : making none of these : 58%... making exactly one : 33%... making more than one : 9%

 

So, you can be frustrated that two of these burned an edge and your mindset should always be that this one / the next will drop, just don't overreact and conclude that you're the worst putter from that Country club and should jump into that pond on number 17...

 

 

 

I wish the shot scope numbers were broken down a bit more. 6 feet to 18 feet is a massive range. I would rather see 6-9, 9-12, 12-15, 15-18. I bet 5 caps are making a ton more putts from 6 to 12 than 20 caps. Scratches may be making 2x as many putts from 18 feet as a 15 cap but it is still a small %, given the much lower MoE for being offline. If better players are making "most" putts from under 6 feet, then improving that 6-12 foot accuracy by half will really drive stroke reduction; not to mention that a lot of players have that range when they are scrambling.  I want to get within 3 feet but realistically, if I am within 8-10 feet on a chip, I at least gave myself a chance. 

 

Also needed are number of putts per round per distance (1st putt and 2nd putt). Focusing on 50-foot lag putts is great, but a better player may not have many of those in each round.  If I am playing well, I see maybe one a round outside of a 220-yard par 3 where I am just happy to be on the green.  Usually I am off the green and chipping, or I am on and within 30 feet. 

[RoyalMustang]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

Delegating stroke control over to other parts of body has been a big positive for me. I'm still right hand dominant but shoulders and lead hand play a much larger role. Consistency went way up once it took. I spent time to break down the technical but for the most part I never think technically on the green. 

 

This is why I will play with opening up my stance. Just playing around, I can feel going "through" with my lead shoulder and lead hand rather than pushing from behind. It also feels like my left arm is more attached to the shoulder and more in sync.  

[PracticeSwinger]

3 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

I wish the shot scope numbers were broken down a bit more. 6 feet to 18 feet is a massive range. I would rather see 6-9, 9-12, 12-15, 15-18. I bet 5 caps are making a ton more putts from 6 to 12 than 20 caps. Scratches may be making 2x as many putts from 18 feet as a 15 cap but it is still a small %, given the much lower MoE for being offline. If better players are making "most" putts from under 6 feet, then improving that 6-12 foot accuracy by half will really drive stroke reduction; not to mention that a lot of players have that range when they are scrambling.  I want to get within 3 feet but realistically, if I am within 8-10 feet on a chip, I at least gave myself a chance. 

 

Also needed are number of putts per round per distance (1st putt and 2nd putt). Focusing on 50-foot lag putts is great, but a better player may not have many of those in each round.  If I am playing well, I see maybe one a round outside of a 220-yard par 3 where I am just happy to be on the green.  Usually I am off the green and chipping, or I am on and within 30 feet. 

Agree on all accounts, having a true dispersion of all putts distance is important in my opinion, again to manage expectations and to allot limited practice time. Funny enough, I've seen a few studies that show that the biggest differenciator in Strokes gained putting on tour is from 4.5 feet; great putters convert their share way more than bad ones and it's a frequent distance range.

[naval2006]

2 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Agree on all accounts, having a true dispersion of all putts distance is important in my opinion, again to manage expectations and to allot limited practice time. Funny enough, I've seen a few studies that show that the biggest differenciator in Strokes gained putting on tour is from 4.5 feet; great putters convert their share way more than bad ones and it's a frequent distance range.

A few years ago I played a Latin American Tour pro am with this American pro who hit it like a major champion.  I asked him what the real difference was between him and a PGA Tour player.  "Short putts," he answered mechanically.