Difficult time using mallet putter, feels less stable, super light!!

[quizzylish]

So I have sort of always been a blade guy but I always dabble into mallets for the forgiveness factor.  I feel I have a pretty good putting stroke, standard all around.  My latest putter, Bettinardi Inovai 6.0 spud neck just doesn’t feel stable while making a stroke.  It feels very light and wobbly on my back stroke.  I have been firming up my grip to try to compensate but it isn’t great.  The putter head is 358 grams, 35 inch.  I worry the grip is too heavy causing the putter to feel very light.  It’s a stock, bettinardi lamkin sink fit rubber grip.  I have no info on it but I wonder if it’s 80-90 grams which is making the putter feel super light.  Should I just lead tape the head or switch to a lighter grip, which is easiest? 

[MattM97]

Don't even need lead tape now just get some quarters and masking tape. Then tape a bunch to the putter and roll at home. If feels comfortable weight that and can add same in lead tape. 

 

If not try a lighter grip second. 

[quizzylish]

2 hours ago, MattM97 said:

Don't even need lead tape now just get some quarters and masking tape. Then tape a bunch to the putter and roll at home. If feels comfortable weight that and can add same in lead tape. 

 

If not try a lighter grip second. 

thanks Matt.  I’ll give it a shot.  I also saw the possibility of adding tungsten powder to the shaft and corking it to a** swing weight.  It’ll definitely be more aesthetically pleasing to the eye 

[North Butte]

Hate to be a wiseacre but why did you buy a fairly expensive putter if it feels light, wobbly and unstable when you swing it? 

[PJE]

I think you should be cautious about adding powder. I’ve  heard adding more than 20g can significantly change the feel and putting characteristics.

But, I’m not an expert and I don’t know if that’s just an old wive’s tale. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by PJE

[MattM97]

1 hour ago, quizzylish said:

thanks Matt.  I’ll give it a shot.  I also saw the possibility of adding tungsten powder to the shaft and corking it to a** swing weight.  It’ll definitely be more aesthetically pleasing to the eye 

 

I'd be careful with the powder depending on how much you add, you don't want to add a significant amount of weight into the heel. Yes cleaner looking than lead tape but lead tape you can place evenly on the putter.

[Jc0]

Have you played face balance putters before? This more sounds like a face balance vs toe hang issue than a weight issue. I'm strong arc and every time I play face balanced putters I get this type of feeling. If your strong arc, a face balance putters is easier to rotate than a toe hang putter by design so it can feel like the head is all over the place. If you want to play a mallet you should go with a slant neck option.

[5hort5tuff]

4 hours ago, quizzylish said:

thanks Matt.  I’ll give it a shot.  I also saw the possibility of adding tungsten powder to the shaft and corking it to a** swing weight.  It’ll definitely be more aesthetically pleasing to the eye 

 

I have added 20g to more than one putter via tip weights in the hosel....I have never noticed a single difference in performance.  One of these putters I had made more one putts than anything else I have ever used. 

 

Seemore just lengthens the post that the shaft fits into to add weight. They also do up to 20g I believe. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by 5hort5tuff

[Unteachable]

8 hours ago, quizzylish said:

So I have sort of always been a blade guy but I always dabble into mallets for the forgiveness factor.  I feel I have a pretty good putting stroke, standard all around.  My latest putter, Bettinardi Inovai 6.0 spud neck just doesn’t feel stable while making a stroke.  It feels very light and wobbly on my back stroke.  I have been firming up my grip to try to compensate but it isn’t great.  The putter head is 358 grams, 35 inch.  I worry the grip is too heavy causing the putter to feel very light.  It’s a stock, bettinardi lamkin sink fit rubber grip.  I have no info on it but I wonder if it’s 80-90 grams which is making the putter feel super light.  Should I just lead tape the head or switch to a lighter grip, which is easiest? 

I would recommend just saving yourself some anguish and get rid of it and move on to something else 

[quizzylish]

12 hours ago, North Butte said:

Hate to be a wiseacre but why did you buy a fairly expensive putter if it feels light, wobbly and unstable when you swing it? 

I know. It seemed fine when testing in the shop. However, once I started using it more, it’s something I noticed, especially on 3-5 footers.   This is a 2020 version so it was almost half off 

[quizzylish]

11 hours ago, Jc0 said:

Have you played face balance putters before? This more sounds like a face balance vs toe hang issue than a weight issue. I'm strong arc and every time I play face balanced putters I get this type of feeling. If your strong arc, a face balance putters is easier to rotate than a toe hang putter by design so it can feel like the head is all over the place. If you want to play a mallet you should go with a slant neck option.

I think you may be onto the true problem.  I think my stroke fits more with some toe hang.  

[quizzylish]

11 hours ago, Jc0 said:

Have you played face balance putters before? This more sounds like a face balance vs toe hang issue than a weight issue. I'm strong arc and every time I play face balanced putters I get this type of feeling. If your strong arc, a face balance putters is easier to rotate than a toe hang putter by design so it can feel like the head is all over the place. If you want to play a mallet you should go with a slant neck option.

Actually now that I think of it, I also have a studio stock 28 I’ve used before, that is face balanced and never felt it was an issue.   

[Jc0]

1 hour ago, quizzylish said:

Actually now that I think of it, I also have a studio stock 28 I’ve used before, that is face balanced and never felt it was an issue.   

 

The 28 still has a slight toe hang while the spud neck is truly face balanced. Also mallet vs blade styles. Feel like the blade, even when face balanced, works better with arced strokes than a mallet. I played a double wide for a little and it was serviceable, but I could never get a face balanced mallet to be that. 

[quizzylish]

On 5/28/2023 at 11:13 AM, Jc0 said:

 

The 28 still has a slight toe hang while the spud neck is truly face balanced. Also mallet vs blade styles. Feel like the blade, even when face balanced, works better with arced strokes than a mallet. I played a double wide for a little and it was serviceable, but I could never get a face balanced mallet to be that. 

Great point, maybe this is why I haven’t gotten along with face balanced putters.  #7 odyssey, 2 ball, this Betti…..etc.  

[mjo23]

On 5/27/2023 at 2:30 PM, quizzylish said:

So I have sort of always been a blade guy but I always dabble into mallets for the forgiveness factor.  I feel I have a pretty good putting stroke, standard all around.  My latest putter, Bettinardi Inovai 6.0 spud neck just doesn’t feel stable while making a stroke.  It feels very light and wobbly on my back stroke.  I have been firming up my grip to try to compensate but it isn’t great.  The putter head is 358 grams, 35 inch.  I worry the grip is too heavy causing the putter to feel very light.  It’s a stock, bettinardi lamkin sink fit rubber grip.  I have no info on it but I wonder if it’s 80-90 grams which is making the putter feel super light.  Should I just lead tape the head or switch to a lighter grip, which is easiest? 

A 358gram head at 35inches is not light. The grip should be around 78 grams (if i’m thinking of the correct grip) which is pretty typical. If you’re used to a super light grip, then it might make for a slight difference in feel - but probably not to the extent that you’re describing. 

 

So I don’t think your problem has to do with the head-weight. Could be many things like toe-hang, a shape that you’re not used to (aka a mallet if you’re coming from a blade background), etc.

 

Have u weighed the putter, to see what the overall weight is? One of my issues with my SC Phantom X11 is that while the head is very heavy, the shaft is pretty damn light - which personally causes some feel/distance control issues for me.

[oxHadokenxo]

2 hours ago, mjo23 said:

 The grip should be around 78 grams (if i’m thinking of the correct grip) which is pretty typical.

 

 

If it really is the Lamkin Sinkfit Pistol Rubber grip and not the Lamkin Sinkfit Pistol Polyurethane grip, that is a pretty heavy putter grip.  120 grams if memory serves me correctly.  I love the grip and texture, but it can be too heavy when I put it on a lighter putter head.  I have one unmounted in my garage that I took off of a putter it was just too heavy for, I can weigh it later if that is the model.

For reference, I have that grip on my Cleveland Huntington Beach 11 putter which has a headweight of 370g and I don't get that feeling, but I had it on a ~350g putter with a Strokelab shaft and I felt it was on the heavier side.

Edited May 30, 2023 by oxHadokenxo

[mjo23]

44 minutes ago, oxHadokenxo said:

If it really is the Lamkin Sinkfit Pistol Rubber grip and not the Lamkin Sinkfit Pistol Polyurethane grip, that is a pretty heavy putter grip.  120 grams if memory serves me correctly.  I love the grip and texture, but it can be too heavy when I put it on a lighter putter head.  I have one unmounted in my garage that I took off of a putter it was just too heavy for, I can weigh it later if that is the model.

For reference, I have that grip on my Cleveland Huntington Beach 11 putter which has a headweight of 370g and I don't get that feeling, but I had it on a ~350g putter with a Strokelab shaft and I felt it was on the heavier side.

In that case, the grip is probably your issue. 120grams is insanely heavy

[quizzylish]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:58 PM, mjo23 said:

In that case, the grip is probably your issue. 120grams is insanely heavy

I was able to find a weight on the Bettinardi website.  Not an exact Match but close enough to feel it’s the same model.  It had it listed at 72 grams.  

My honest feeling is mallets just do not work for me.  I just tested a variety of mallets and blades in succession from all different brands.  Trying to be as objective as possible.  Even tried mallets with more toe hang, a little better but not enough.  I’m just going to keep blades and give up on mallets.  

[nsxguy]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:33 PM, Jc0 said:

Have you played face balance putters before? This more sounds like a face balance vs toe hang issue than a weight issue. I'm strong arc and every time I play face balanced putters I get this type of feeling. If your strong arc, a face balance putters is easier to rotate than a toe hang putter by design so it can feel like the head is all over the place. If you want to play a mallet you should go with a slant neck option.

 

That's funny, I've always been under the impression it's exactly the opposite.

 

Toe hang encourages an arc stroke as the toe "wants" to go from square to open & back to square.

 

Face balanced putters are for those who try to go, no matter how inadvisable, straight back and straight through because the toe doesn't want to rotate from square to open to square, and because with SBST there's no need to square up the face as it's not rotated open on the backstroke. 

[Jc0]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

That's funny, I've always been under the impression it's exactly the opposite.

 

Toe hang encourages an arc stroke as the toe "wants" to go from square to open & back to square.

 

Face balanced putters are for those who try to go, no matter how inadvisable, straight back and straight through because the toe doesn't want to rotate from square to open to square, and because with SBST there's no need to square up the face as it's not rotated open on the backstroke. 

 

So think about this statement logically "Toe hang encourages an arc stroke as the toe "wants" to go from square to open & back to square". People say this a lot but how does that logicallymake any sense. If the putter wants to open up on the back swing why would it want to close on the through swing. It's a static object, the physics don't change so it it should only want to do one or the other. 

 

So what is actually happening? It has everything to do with moment of interia around the golf shaft. A center shafted putter has the shaft go through the cg which means there is equal inertia above and below the shaft. That means if you were to take shaft straight back the putter face would stay square. A toe hang putter on the other hand has an inbalance of inertia, where the toe side has more inertia than heel side because the shaft intersects the head closer to the heel. Because of this, with that same straight back stroke the heel would actually go back faster than the toe, closing the face, because the toe has a higher moment of inertia. So what is the benefit of having the higher inertia on the toe then. It slows down the face rotation of the putter. The benefit of this is that the face doesn't open/close as fast so it's easier to square up the putter face if you open/close a lot. 

 

[mjo23]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

That's funny, I've always been under the impression it's exactly the opposite.

 

Toe hang encourages an arc stroke as the toe "wants" to go from square to open & back to square.

 

Face balanced putters are for those who try to go, no matter how inadvisable, straight back and straight through because the toe doesn't want to rotate from square to open to square, and because with SBST there's no need to square up the face as it's not rotated open on the backstroke. 

I switch between toe-hang and fb putters quite often, I guess i’ll share my personal experience/feel between the two: with putters with mid-to-high toe hang, I feel like I have to keep my hands quiet and almost let the putter do the work. With fb putters, I feel like my hands are more involved in guiding the putter head throughout the stroke.

 

They’re just different, I don’t think one is better than the other. But I do think that people/companies misrepresent the idea that u need a “sbst” to use a fb putter, or that u need an “arcing stroke” to use a putter with moderate or high toe-hang

 

@Jc0 great explanation. It’s cool to read the actual physics behind it (which I should probably know lol). I would note (not that you said otherwise) that - regardless of whether u use fb or a toe hang putter - as long as u can get the head back to square, it doesn’t matter how much arc u have (within reason obviously)

Edited June 5, 2023 by mjo23

[nsxguy]

On 6/4/2023 at 9:11 PM, Jc0 said:

 

So think about this statement logically "Toe hang encourages an arc stroke as the toe "wants" to go from square to open & back to square". People say this a lot but how does that logicallymake any sense. If the putter wants to open up on the back swing why would it want to close on the through swing. It's a static object, the physics don't change so it it should only want to do one or the other. 

 

So what is actually happening? It has everything to do with moment of interia around the golf shaft. A center shafted putter has the shaft go through the cg which means there is equal inertia above and below the shaft. That means if you were to take shaft straight back the putter face would stay square. A toe hang putter on the other hand has an inbalance of inertia, where the toe side has more inertia than heel side because the shaft intersects the head closer to the heel. Because of this, with that same straight back stroke the heel would actually go back faster than the toe, closing the face, because the toe has a higher moment of inertia. So what is the benefit of having the higher inertia on the toe then. It slows down the face rotation of the putter. The benefit of this is that the face doesn't open/close as fast so it's easier to square up the putter face if you open/close a lot. 

 

 

Firstly, as for thinking logically goes, why would one think a driver, hit way out towards the toe, would hook ? I'd say nobody. But it does hook.

 

Anyway, you posted a lot of words but it "sounds" like you're disagreeing with me.

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/518390/a-deep-dive-into-toe-hang-of-a-putter-and-why-it-matters/

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by nsxguy

[dmeeksDC]

On 6/4/2023 at 7:14 PM, nsxguy said:

 

That's funny, I've always been under the impression it's exactly the opposite.

 

Toe hang encourages an arc stroke as the toe "wants" to go from square to open & back to square.

 

Face balanced putters are for those who try to go, no matter how inadvisable, straight back and straight through because the toe doesn't want to rotate from square to open to square, and because with SBST there's no need to square up the face as it's not rotated open on the backstroke. 

You are correct. Toe hang also is not working in a vacuum, as if no one is holding the putter. The player always has the greatest impact. Face balanced or toe hang, the player has the greatest impact, which is why many can play face balanced or toe hang and putt well with either.
 

This is why I am skeptical of “torque free” putters because that is only true if no one is holding the putter or if it is barely being held by a machine. Put human hands on it and it will not be torque free. It’s not possible. No one can hold a putter that lightly and especially not again and again. 
 

Toe hang has an impact on how the player feels the weight and moves the putter. For some players, the face of a toe hang putter actually will close faster. Why? Their hands. They feel the weight going back and on the downstroke of the pendulum, they also feel it and once that weight gets moving, that player likes the feeling of the toe closing on a stronger arc. It might actually close faster. Is that a manipulation? Perhaps, but it is their stroke.
 

Others have a different stroke and the toe will close more slowly. But it’s not true that the toe of a toe hang putter closes more slowly for every player. The hands always bring torque of some level and players react differently to the feel of a putter’s weighting. 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, dmeeksDC said:

You are correct. Toe hang also is not working in a vacuum, as if no one is holding the putter. The player always has the greatest impact. Face balanced or toe hang, the player has the greatest impact, which is why many can play face balanced or toe hang and putt well with either.
 

This is why I am skeptical of “torque free” putters because that is only true if no one is holding the putter or if it is barely being held by a machine. Put human hands on it and it will not be torque free. It’s not possible. No one can hold a putter that lightly and especially not again and again. 
 

Toe hang has an impact on how the player feels the weight and moves the putter. For some players, the face of a toe hang putter actually will close faster. Why? Their hands. They feel the weight going back and on the downstroke of the pendulum, they also feel it and once that weight gets moving, that player likes the feeling of the toe closing on a stronger arc. It might actually close faster. Is that a manipulation? Perhaps, but it is their stroke.
 

Others have a different stroke and the toe will close more slowly. But it’s not true that the toe of a toe hang putter closes more slowly for every player. The hands always bring torque of some level and players react differently to the feel of a putter’s weighting. 

 

Totally agree.

 

And while I believe there is some value in the torque free design, they are not the be all and end all. But in their defense, being torque free eliminates one variable in the stroke.

 

But sure, the main influence(s) in putting is the player. He's going to twist and turn and rotate far more, with more variability, than the putter will (on its own).

 

So realistically, the player may rotate a putter "too much" and a putter that rotates less may compensate and end up providing the "perfect" combo for THAT play. And vice versa.

 

Then add weight, feel, sound, etc. and even the player's variability from day-to-day, and it's no wonder it's darn near impossible getting the perfect stick.