Is outside the golf course boundary fence considered OB??

[dabs]

Sliced my driver to the trees but there is a fence on the right and a public road beyond it.

 

No markings as to whether it's OB or not. Is this generally considered OB? 

 

And if so, for pace of play, if I take 2 penalty strokes, where can I drop my ball? 

 

- In the trees 2 club lengths from the fence? 

- On the rough next to the fairway

- On the fairway

 

 

[iacas]

These questions are all answered in the Rules of Golf, and I think generally people are happy to help particularly if you show that you've done a little to try to help yourself.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=1

 

The Committee's job is to mark OB, but that can be marked if they write something on the scorecard like "the fence near the road on hole #3 marks OB" or something like that. So, nobody can really give you a definitive answer with what you've said.

 

They're often marking OB, but the Rules don't work that way. The Committee must mark or denote what is OB even if it's a shopping plaza across the street. If it's not marked/noted, it's in bounds.

 

See MLR 8A (1, 2… etc.)

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=1

 

Quote

• "Out of bounds is defined by [insert methods of defining out of bounds, for example, white stakes, line and fences]."

• "The boundary to the left of [specify hole number] is defined by the course-side edge of the white paint [lines | dots] [specify location, such as the pavement]."

• "The maintenance area between [specify hole numbers] is out of bounds  as defined by the fence surrounding the area."

 

 

Also see this:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

 

[dabs]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

These questions are all answered in the Rules of Golf, and I think generally people are happy to help particularly if you show that you've done a little to try to help yourself.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=1

 

The Committee's job is to mark OB, but that can be marked if they write something on the scorecard like "the fence near the road on hole #3 marks OB" or something like that. So, nobody can really give you a definitive answer with what you've said.

 

They're often marking OB, but the Rules don't work that way. The Committee must mark or denote what is OB even if it's a shopping plaza across the street. If it's not marked/noted, it's in bounds.

 

See MLR 8A (1, 2… etc.)

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=1

 

 

Also see this:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

 

Thank you this is exactly what I needed.  For the new Local Rule - The diagram shows that with 2 club lengths, it can be on the fairway. So you can drop it on the fairway?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, dabs said:

Thank you this is exactly what I needed.  For the new Local Rule - The diagram shows that with 2 club lengths, it can be on the fairway. So you can drop it on the fairway?

 

A bit more for you to read:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/infographics/golf-s-new-rules--stroke-and-distance.html#expanded

 

 

[dabs]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

A bit more for you to read:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/infographics/golf-s-new-rules--stroke-and-distance.html#expanded

 

 

Thank you. I think my friends and I will start implementing this.

[Newby]

16 hours ago, dabs said:

Thank you. I think my friends and I will start implementing this.

Are you playing in competitions or just returning general play cards for handicap purposes?

[JimmyC59]

Just hit a provisional off the tee if you think you're close to going OB. Then play the provisional. Solves the pace of play issue.

Edited June 14, 2023 by JimmyC59

[dabs]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:23 AM, Newby said:

Are you playing in competitions or just returning general play cards for handicap purposes?

Just playing with friends. We’re all 25+ handicap so it’s just very casual.

[harveythomas]

Usually the scorecard says out of bounds is marked by white stakes or anywhere beyond the boundary (fences) of the course.  
 

If you hit it outside the area owned by the course my working assumption would be that it’s OB even if no white stakes are on the boundary.   In competitions this means playing from the tee again for the distance plus one stroke penalty ie 3rd shot from the tee.  Definitely hit a provisional if it looks like you may be over the fence.  
 

When I play with 20plus handicap’s in social play I agree we will let them drop one on the fairway for a one shot penalty (nearest to where they think they lost it but preferably not closer to hole).  
 

At high handicap levels it’s best to make a group rule like this unless in a formal competition when proper rules should apply.  It’s no fun spending loads of time on ball searches and applying stroke and distance penalties with further delay to the round.  
 

If I was in a formal competition and the high handicapper was clearly not going near the leaderboard and scoring awfully anyway I would not generally be that strict on applying all the rules to the letter with them either.  No need to make their rounds even more miserable and make them potentially hit more than one provisional after multiple failed attempts and their adjusted gross is likely coming into play already for handicap purposes.  Clearly if they have a chance of contending though they need to follow every rule to the letter including when hitting OB.  
 

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, harveythomas said:

Usually the scorecard says out of bounds is marked by white stakes or anywhere beyond the boundary (fences) of the course.  
 

If you hit it outside the area owned by the course my working assumption would be that it’s OB even if no white stakes are on the boundary.

 

If it's written on the scorecard, or the rules for the competition, then the Committee has done their job.

 

If it's just "off course property," then it still has to be marked or defined by the Committee, and in the absence of it, you cannot just assume it's OB. If you hit it into the parking lot of a 7-11 and it's not written that the course-side white line of public roads marks OB, then the ball is likely in bounds and thus playable.

 

18 minutes ago, harveythomas said:

When I play with 20plus handicap’s in social play I agree we will let them drop one on the fairway for a one shot penalty (nearest to where they think they lost it but preferably not closer to hole).

 

Why not just play the Local Rule and penalize them two strokes in the cone?

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/golfs-new-rules/Alternative to S%26D Model Local Rule.pdf

 

18 minutes ago, harveythomas said:

If I was in a formal competition and the high handicapper was clearly not going near the leaderboard and scoring awfully anyway I would not generally be that strict on applying all the rules to the letter with them either.  No need to make their rounds even more miserable and make them potentially hit more than one provisional after multiple failed attempts and their adjusted gross is likely coming into play already for handicap purposes.  Clearly if they have a chance of contending though they need to follow every rule to the letter including when hitting OB.

 

I'd be careful about that. You're knowingly allowing another player to breach the rules, and could be DQed yourself.

[3PuttLefty]

I had a friend that would drill a ball 2 backyards deep…take his golf cart through a few interesections to play the ball.  “No OB markers!!”    SMH

[davep043]

3 hours ago, 3PuttLefty said:

I had a friend that would drill a ball 2 backyards deep…take his golf cart through a few interesections to play the ball.  “No OB markers!!”    SMH

No matter that this sometimes doesn't make sense, you must play the course as you find it.  OB must be defined by the Committee, if its not defined in some way, its not OB.  Simply being on or off the property doesn't matter, the Committee really has to do their job.  The Committee often defines some areas ON the property as being OB, like the driving range, parking lots, the swimming pool, etc.  If the OB isn't defined, its not a problem with the Rules, its a problem with a lazy or incompetent Committee.

[harveythomas]

I’ve never seen a scorecard yet that doesn’t define beyond the boundary as OB.  Maybe there are some but I’ve never seen one where it wasn’t clear yet.   

[Augster]

On 7/16/2023 at 4:49 PM, harveythomas said:

I’ve never seen a scorecard yet that doesn’t define beyond the boundary as OB.  Maybe there are some but I’ve never seen one where it wasn’t clear yet.   

Now you have. 
 

The left side of our 16th hole is all RPA. The RPA is only about 20 yards wide running the entire hole. After those 20 yards, if you hook it good enough, there is a railroad tracks, then a small parking lot, then a rugby field. All of that is still “in the RPA” and on the “course” even though the railroad tracks are clearly off the property. 
 

Unless it’s defined as OB, it’s not OB. 

 

[rogolf]

17 minutes ago, Augster said:

Now you have. 
 

The left side of our 16th hole is all RPA. The RPA is only about 20 yards wide running the entire hole. After those 20 yards, if you hook it good enough, there is a railroad tracks, then a small parking lot, then a rugby field. All of that is still “in the RPA” and on the “course” even though the railroad tracks are clearly off the property. 
 

Unless it’s defined as OB, it’s not OB. 

 

Then, imo, the Committee has not done a decent job.  It would be easy to use something on the railway property to define OB, or just put some white stakes along the right edge of the railway easement.

They're obviously not up to date - what's a "lateral hazard" in the current Rules?

Edited July 18, 2023 by rogolf

[Augster]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Then, imo, the Committee has not done a decent job.  It would be easy to use something on the railway property to define OB, or just put some white stakes along the right edge of the railway easement.

They're obviously not up to date - what's a "lateral hazard" in the current Rules?

No doubt on the verbiage. I’m working with management to get that changed when they purchase new cards. 
 

Leaving everything left of the red line as RPA makes determining PLC really easy instead of trying to guess whether the ball stayed in the woods between the tracks and the course, or went across the tracks and would be OB. By not defining OB, it’s all RPA. Drop 2CL at the estimated PLC and move along. 
 

One isn’t finding their ball in the woods, or across the tracks. All they need to know is the estimated PLC. Pace of play is much quicker, and its easier for everyone to play correctly. 

[James the Hogan Fan]

For moooost of their own purposes, the individual player may treat the course property boundaries as out of bounds should they desire to, as the penalty of stroke and distance is equivalent to the ball being lost and an option for the ball being unplayable, which is a reasonably likely outcome of hitting a ball off property; the actual mechanism for imposing the penalty being incorrect. 

 

The only issue I see is "it's technically in bounds" arguments as some guy plays a shot from a nearby freeway median, and perhaps more practically, is whether or not you get relief from "a fence suspiciously on the edge of property" or a no relief from a boundary object. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by James the Hogan Fan

[MountainKing]

Came across a similar situation a few weeks back - left side of the hole was some sort of hazard that also appeared to potentially not be part of the course property. It was also tree lined which made us think it also could have not been a hazard.  No stakes/lines of any color and card had no real indication either.  We ended up playing it as OB (yours truly ended up there) because it did look like the hazard area was off the course property.   When I got home I went on the website to see if there was anything about it, found an updated card that indicated it should be played as a lateral hazard.   Went back to our card to make sure we didn't miss it, sure enough this wording was not on the card we had.  Really weird, but I guess it was enough of an issue that they decided to address it.

[Oh Hi Carl]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:56 PM, dabs said:

Sliced my driver to the trees but there is a fence on the right and a public road beyond it.

 

No markings as to whether it's OB or not. Is this generally considered OB? 

 

And if so, for pace of play, if I take 2 penalty strokes, where can I drop my ball? 

 

- In the trees 2 club lengths from the fence? 

- On the rough next to the fairway

- On the fairway

 

 

As for the local rule, if you hit the ball beyond the boundary fence that is not marked as OB and you can see the ball, then it's not lost and it's not OB, which means that you can't apply the local rule.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

As for the local rule, if you hit the ball beyond the boundary fence that is not marked as OB and you can see the ball, then it's not lost and it's not OB, which means that you can't apply the local rule.

 

Why not ?

 

Doesn't the ball have to be identified?

 

And if you can't identify it, it's lost, isn't it ?

[Oh Hi Carl]

12 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Why not ?

 

Doesn't the ball have to be identified?

 

And if you can't identify it, it's lost, isn't it ?

I believe 18.3 applies.  If a ball has been found that may be the ball in play, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball. Player can't refuse to try to identify it and then play the provisional.  Player can be DQ'd if they refuse to do so.  My only doubt about 18.3 is that it applies when a provisional has already been hit.  I wonder if it applies when a player is considering using the local rule.  I believe it would.  

 

Of course, the player always has the option of stroke and distance if they find their ball or not.  

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I believe 18.3 applies.  If a ball has been found that may be the ball in play, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball. Player can't refuse to try to identify it and then play the provisional.  Player can be DQ'd if they refuse to do so.  My only doubt about 18.3 is that it applies when a provisional has already been hit.  I wonder if it applies when a player is considering using the local rule.  I believe it would.  

 

Of course, the player always has the option of stroke and distance if they find their ball or not.  

I agree with @nsxguy, if you're unable to identify the ball because you're not permitted to enter that area (per the property owner, not the golf club), the ball is Lost.  I wouldn't say a player is "refusing to ID the ball" because he won't go onto what he knows is someone else's property.   MLR E-5 could be used if its in effect, AND if you haven't hit a Provisional.  

[Shankyouverymuch]

On 7/17/2023 at 8:52 PM, Augster said:

Now you have. 
 

 

 

I want to play this course.  Scorecard says "allowed to bring your own alcohol"

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I believe 18.3 applies.  If a ball has been found that may be the ball in play, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball. Player can't refuse to try to identify it and then play the provisional.  Player can be DQ'd if they refuse to do so.  My only doubt about 18.3 is that it applies when a provisional has already been hit.  I wonder if it applies when a player is considering using the local rule.  I believe it would.  

 

Of course, the player always has the option of stroke and distance if they find their ball or not.  

 

Why would 18.3 apply ? That rule is about playing a provisional. That is not part of the post you asked about.

 

And I don't see anything in 18.2 that says I MUST look for the ball UNLESS "a ball is found" - then I MUST try to identify it.

 

The ball is outside the boundary and it sounds like the ball is not easily gotten to. I don't see where I am under any obligation to climb a fence, cross a road and take a chance getting hit by a car, am I ?

 

If I'm searching for my ball, and A ball is spotted up a tree, but NOT identifiable, am required to climb the tree ?

 

And, IF I DID hit a provisional, I (still) have no obligation to TRY to find the original. I can simply hit the provisional 1 or more times. Once I hit A shot from closer to the hole than where the original is likely to be, it is then the ball in play even IF the original is then found - by someone else obviously.

 

And as Dave mentioned, if I had hit a provisional, E-5 would only apply to the provisional, not the original.

[Oh Hi Carl]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

I agree with @nsxguy, if you're unable to identify the ball because you're not permitted to enter that area (per the property owner, not the golf club), the ball is Lost.  I wouldn't say a player is "refusing to ID the ball" because he won't go onto what he knows is someone else's property.   MLR E-5 could be used if its in effect, AND if you haven't hit a Provisional.  

I agree with you that the player shouldn't have to ID the ball if it isn't possible to ID it.  This issue just comes down to the silliness of not marking the area beyond a fence as OB if that area is inaccessible. As you stated above, if the area isn't marked as OB, then it is not OB.  If that area is not marked as OB and the player can see what he thinks or his playing partners think is his ball and the ball is accessible, then he cannot play the provisional without first identifying his ball. 

[davep043]

14 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

If that area is not marked as OB and the player can see what he thinks or his playing partners think is his ball and the ball is accessible, then he cannot play the provisional without first identifying his ball. 

Not so, a ball is Lost if it is not identified within the 3-minute search time, perhaps with a few additional seconds to ID a ball found late in the search.  If it is not feasible to identify a ball because access to it is prohibited by the property owner, that ball is Lost 3 minutes after the search began.  As soon as the original ball is Lost, the Provisional becomes the Ball in Play.  

If the ball IS identified as belonging to the Player, and it is not OB as defined by the Committee, then you're right, the Provisional Ball becomes a Wrong Ball and must not be played.

20 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

This issue just comes down to the silliness of not marking the area beyond a fence as OB if that area is inaccessible.

I would use a different word, its laziness on the part of the Committee (which often means the course management).

[Oh Hi Carl]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Not so, a ball is Lost if it is not identified within the 3-minute search time, perhaps with a few additional seconds to ID a ball found late in the search.  If it is not feasible to identify a ball because access to it is prohibited by the property owner, that ball is Lost 3 minutes after the search began.  As soon as the original ball is Lost, the Provisional becomes the Ball in Play.  

 

But I didn't say it was not feasible to ID the ball.  I said the opposite -- "If that area is not marked as OB and the player can see what he thinks or his playing partners think is his ball and the ball is accessible, then he cannot play the provisional without first identifying his ball."  I think we both agree that 18.2 requires the player to ID the ball if found within the 3-minute search.  

[Oh Hi Carl]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Why would 18.3 apply ? That rule is about playing a provisional. That is not part of the post you asked about.

I think it was pretty clear that I was not certain that 18.3 would apply.  The OP suggested using the local rule E-5, which is used in lieu of playing a provisional, which is what took me to 18.3.  If the player had hit a provisional, I would argue that 18.3 would definitely apply if the ball were accessible.  

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

And I don't see anything in 18.2 that says I MUST look for the ball UNLESS "a ball is found" - then I MUST try to identify it.

The OP didn't say that a ball was not found.  You are assuming that it was not found.  It's quite possible that he could see the ball beyond the road.  

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

The ball is outside the boundary and it sounds like the ball is not easily gotten to. I don't see where I am under any obligation to climb a fence, cross a road and take a chance getting hit by a car, am I ?

Again, you're assuming the ball is inaccessible.  Maybe the fence has a gate in it, and maybe the road is free of traffic and just beyond the fence.  The ball is in the general area.  Some would say you have to try to ID it if you want to play your provisional or use MLR E-5.  But all of this indicates how absurd (OK, Dave, lazy) it is to not mark it OB.  Given that the committee has not marked it OB, they are forcing you to try to get to the ball unless you're willing to take a penalty.  Some people may actually try to cross a busy road to play a ball that is in the general area.  The club's lawyers would probably point out to the committee the liability that the committee has created for the club by keeping the area beyond the road in the general area.  

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

If I'm searching for my ball, and A ball is spotted up a tree, but NOT identifiable, am required to climb the tree ?

Of course not.  This is the P. Reed situation.  You only have to ID it if you want to take an unplayable, which may be much more advantageous than stroke and distance.  

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

And, IF I DID hit a provisional, I (still) have no obligation to TRY to find the original. I can simply hit the provisional 1 or more times. Once I hit A shot from closer to the hole than where the original is likely to be, it is then the ball in play even IF the original is then found - by someone else obviously.

I agree with what you wrote unless someone found a ball that may be yours before you play the provisional from beyond where the original ball may be.  If a ball was found that may be yours, then you would be required to ID it.  

Edited August 15, 2023 by Oh Hi Carl

[nsxguy]

22 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

As for the local rule, if you hit the ball beyond the boundary fence that is not marked as OB and you can see the ball, then it's not lost and it's not OB, which means that you can't apply the local rule.

 

First mistake

 

21 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Why not ?

 

Doesn't the ball have to be identified?

 

And if you can't identify it, it's lost, isn't it ?

 

 

8 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I believe 18.3 applies.  If a ball has been found that may be the ball in play, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball. Player can't refuse to try to identify it and then play the provisional.  Player can be DQ'd if they refuse to do so.  My only doubt about 18.3 is that it applies when a provisional has already been hit.  I wonder if it applies when a player is considering using the local rule.  I believe it would.  

 

Of course, the player always has the option of stroke and distance if they find their ball or not.  

 

Now you assume something nobody mentioned (provisional) and followed with 2nd mistake (bolded lines).

 

3 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I agree with you that the player shouldn't have to ID the ball if it isn't possible to ID it.  This issue just comes down to the silliness of not marking the area beyond a fence as OB if that area is inaccessible. As you stated above, if the area isn't marked as OB, then it is not OB.  If that area is not marked as OB and the player can see what he thinks or his playing partners think is his ball and the ball is accessible, then he cannot play the provisional without first identifying his ball. 

 

Agree with the lack of OB marking but that's not really relevant to our discussion.

 

And you follow with Mistake #3

 

1 hour ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

But I didn't say it was not feasible to ID the ball.  I said the opposite -- "If that area is not marked as OB and the player can see what he thinks or his playing partners think is his ball and the ball is accessible, then he cannot play the provisional without first identifying his ball."  I think we both agree that 18.2 requires the player to ID the ball if found within the 3-minute search.  

 

A bit kludgy with this one. Now you're going in a slightly different direction. But no, 18.2 does NOT require the player to ID the ball. It allows the player 3 minutes to SEARCH for the ball,  and another reasonably short time to ID it IF A, ball is found by someone else within the 3 minutes.

 

If the player does NOT wish to search for his ball, someone else still can and, IF A ball is found, within the 3 minutes, that may be the player's ball, THEN he must go to identify it before making another stroke.

 

 

1 hour ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I think it was pretty clear that I was not certain that 18.3 would apply.  The OP suggested using the local rule E-5, which is used in lieu of playing a provisional, which is what took me to 18.3.  If the player had hit a provisional, I a=would argue that 18.3 would definitely apply if the ball were accessible.  

 

The OP didn't say that a ball was not found.  You are assuming that it was not found.  It's quite possible that he could see the ball beyond the road.  

Again, you're assuming the ball is inaccessible.  Maybe the fence has a gate in it, and maybe the road is free of traffic and just beyond the fence.  The ball is in the general area.  Some would say you have to try to ID it if you want to play your provisional or use MLR E-5.  But all of this indicates how adsurd (OK, Dave, lazy) it is to not mark it OB.  

Of course not.  This is the P. Reed situation.  You only have to ID it if you want to take an unplayable, which may be much more advantageous than stroke and distance.  

 

 

So we've come full circle. i.e. YOU introduced the provisional into the discussion. So we're done (again) with that.

 

*I'm* not assuming anything.

 

ALL I was saying is, at least in the beginning, is there is NO requirement for someone to look for their ball.

 

Re: last paragraph (quoted). True, but that wasn't the issue 👍

[Oh Hi Carl]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

First mistake

 

 

 

 

Now you assume something nobody mentioned (provisional) and followed with 2nd mistake (bolded lines).

 

 

Agree with the lack of OB marking but that's not really relevant to our discussion.

 

And you follow with Mistake #3

 

 

A bit kludgy with this one. Now you're going in a slightly different direction. But no, 18.2 does NOT require the player to ID the ball. It allows the player 3 minutes to SEARCH for the ball,  and another reasonably short time to ID it IF A, ball is found by someone else within the 3 minutes.

 

If the player does NOT wish to search for his ball, someone else still can and, IF A ball is found, within the 3 minutes, that may be the player's ball, THEN he must go to identify it before making another stroke.

 

 

 

So we've come full circle. i.e. YOU introduced the provisional into the discussion. So we're done (again) with that.

 

*I'm* not assuming anything.

 

ALL I was saying is, at least in the beginning, is there is NO requirement for someone to look for their ball.

 

Re: last paragraph (quoted). True, but that wasn't the issue 👍

It's not much of a response to state that someone has made a mistake without providing a citation to a rule supporting your position or even any discussion supporting your argument.  Makes me think you don't have any support for your position.  

 

1. Are you saying you can use MLR E-5 for a ball that is not lost and not OB?  

 

2.  Are you saying you can proceed from the fairway with the provisional ball you hit off the tee if someone has found what appears to be your original ball before you hit the provisional a second time and that you don't have to try to ID the ball that the other player found?  

Edited August 16, 2023 by Oh Hi Carl