Club Across the Line Help

[Grizpharm]

Having a real tough time trying to not get the club across the line. Anyone have any feels or drills to help with this? Video for reference. 
 

 

[Kuuuch]

Imo your hands should work way more in on the takeaway. Draw a line in front of your hands at address and you’ll see how far they move out towards the golf ball right away 
 

below video is similar to how I learned to have the hands work in  

 

 

[dvq9654]

I don't have any good advice, but it's impressive how you manage to shallow the club despite being across the line at the top and then immediately throw the arms out over the top 

[MPStrat]

The issue you will have trying to make this change is that the unique (and quite cool btw) forces and torques in your downswing are built around the club being where it is at the top of your swing.  

 

Let’s say you fix your takeaway, which as Kuch mentioned, would be step one. Your downswing move will very likely not match a shaft that isn’t across the line. I’m not sure about your current skill level, but you run the risk of really creating a mess trying to tinker with this. If you are really set on trying to make this change, you might first try simply shortening the arm swing. 

[iacas]

You make the club go around you too much with your arms, rather than using your body to take care of the around and the arms to take care of the up and down.

[Grizpharm]

10 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The issue you will have trying to make this change is that the unique (and quite cool btw) forces and torques in your downswing are built around the club being where it is at the top of your swing.  

 

Let’s say you fix your takeaway, which as Kuch mentioned, would be step one. Your downswing move will very likely not match a shaft that isn’t across the line. I’m not sure about your current skill level, but you run the risk of really creating a mess trying to tinker with this. If you are really set on trying to make this change, you might first try simply shortening the arm swing. 

Not necessarily set on tinkering with this move exactly. Just trying to keep improving and thought this might be a barrier. My miss seems to be a hook with my irons that is extremely frustrating. Currently a 4 handicap with my strength being my distance. 

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, Grizpharm said:

Not necessarily set on tinkering with this move exactly. Just trying to keep improving and thought this might be a barrier. My miss seems to be a hook with my irons that is extremely frustrating. Currently a 4 handicap with my strength being my distance. 

The asset that you have is your elite lower body movement. Allows you to get away with a lot of things. 
 

To make this change you would need to change how your levers are working in the takeaway. From there you would have to train keeping your upper arms more in front or your shoulders in the backswing (shorten the independent arm swing). Third you would have to see how your brain adjusts to the new backswing and very likely modify your downswing. Not a simple project but doable with the right guidance in person. 

[MK7Golf21]

58 minutes ago, Grizpharm said:

Not necessarily set on tinkering with this move exactly. Just trying to keep improving and thought this might be a barrier. My miss seems to be a hook with my irons that is extremely frustrating. Currently a 4 handicap with my strength being my distance. 

yeah, the bad thing about across the line is it can promote a hook as a miss, gets the best of better strong players. Club drops underneath late, club that is across the line is on a plane pointed out to the right. 
 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

First off it’s really not that across the line if at all, it’s just the swing is long.  
 

Yes, you could work on getting the wrists to work the club more vertically.  Yes you could shorten your swing a bit.  Yes you could get a little less cuped just before the end of the backswing.

 

That would be a lot of work for mostly aesthetic results and possibly not help your ball striking that much.  You’re in a respectable position at the top.

 

IMO, the backswing is functional and I’d work on what in my experience is one of the worst shoulder spin outs I’ve ever seen.  
 

Below is a slightly shorter backswing and what comes after that is a lot of unnecessary wrist movement after your body is turned.

 

If I were you I’d listen to Jack Nicklaus and Justin Rose.

 

JN-Keep your back to the target as long as you can.

 

JR-Feel like you stay closed until your hands and the shaft get to p6.

[Zitlow]

You're getting some good advice about the need to fix your takeaway. Your club is on a plane like you're going to swing at a baseball. Koepka's is on the plane the ball is on. 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

[RoyalTroon]

6 hours ago, Zitlow said:

You're getting some good advice about the need to fix your takeaway. Your club is on a plane like you're going to swing at a baseball. Koepka's is on the plane the ball is on.

 

Yes

 

8 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Not a simple project but doable with the right guidance in person. 

 

Could, and should be, a quicker than most trapping.

 

9 hours ago, Grizpharm said:

Having a real tough time trying to not get the club across the line. Anyone have any feels or drills to help with this? Video for reference.

 

The stick you placed on the ground may not be doing you any favors if you are tying your optics and shaft orientation together, and it looks like you are and you like seeing the shaft on top of the stick at first parallel,  which kicks the lead arm WAY out and around too much from underneath you.  If you must use sticks, start with it a little closer, such as:

 

 

 

Or, watch about the first 3 minutes, a grinder and a player with great insight.  

 

 

 

 

[Grizpharm]

Hey guys thanks for the advice on this! @MonteScheinblum I have always felt like I spin just about everything out on the downswing super fast. I follow all your social media stuff and have seen the ideas of keeping my back to the target longer but can’t seem to do it by just thinking it. Any drills you suggest? 

[Valtiel]

10 minutes ago, Grizpharm said:

I have always felt like I spin just about everything out on the downswing super fast. I follow all your social media stuff and have seen the ideas of keeping my back to the target longer but can’t seem to do it by just thinking it. Any drills you suggest? 

IMO it's a product of the mismatch between the length of your swing and the speed of your hips. In all good players you'll generally see various types of complimentary matches in swing length, hip turn range, hand speed, and hip speed. Basically how much speed you can generate in different parts of your body and the ways that matches up with sequencing and movement. 

If you have a short swing and quick hands then you need a more compact hip turn and/or faster hips (think Rahm/Finau). If you have a long swing and quick hips then you need a big hip turn and/or very quick hands (think DJ). If you have slower hips and quicker hands then a longer overall swing fits (think Lowry). There are various minor exceptions here, but the basic idea is sound. Your hips are QUICK, especially with how quickly you're able to clear your left side, very Matt Wolff-esque, but your swing is longer and loopier. IMO you need to spin out to a certain extent to even get the club back in front of you, or at least that is where this move may have come from. It's sort of a "quickest way from point A to point B by cutting the corner" kind of thing, and I feel like if you returned the club back down on a more "standard" plane with your back to the target longer that your hips would rip open so early that you'd end up terribly stuck and flippy.

How much clubhead speed/ball speed would you say you're producing here, or generally on average?

[Grizpharm]

@Valtiel usually 115-117 on course. This one likely less since it was the second bucket ha 

 

[phizzy30]

10 hours ago, Grizpharm said:

Not necessarily set on tinkering with this move exactly. Just trying to keep improving and thought this might be a barrier. My miss seems to be a hook with my irons that is extremely frustrating. Currently a 4 handicap with my strength being my distance. 

I have the same issue as you do.  I'm across the line at the top and tend to hook my irons when my swing is off.  I'm a 4.7 cap atm.  My strength is that I'm long off the tee due to my back round in baseball and bodybuilding.  A lot of practice/reps at the range and making the proper compensations on the down swing by shallowing out when I was younger was the only solution to this unless I was willing to do a complete swing overhaul.  John Daly is extremely across the line at the top and shallows out during the down swing as well and he's done alright for himself minus his off the course problems.  My only advice to you is to go see a teaching pro. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by phizzy30

[slytown]

Understand that in relation to your shoulder turn, as Monte alluded to, you are not across the line. In relation to your foot line, yes you are across the line. To get back on plane you either need to keep your current backswing but release the club massively behind you or shorten the backswing and lay it off at the top, but keep your current downswing feels. You basically need to do something to get the clubhead behind your heels at some point between P3 and P6. It just depends on what you are comfortable with changing and capable of changing. I'm a fan of backswing changes over downswing changes. If you decide to keep your backswing, I also recommend watching Shane Lowry. He has a very long backswing but gets on plane beautifully and has good rotation through the ball.

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

IMO it's a product of the mismatch between the length of your swing and the speed of your hips

I feel like if you returned the club back down on a more "standard" plane with your back to the target longer that your hips would rip open so early that you'd end up terribly stuck and flippy.

This is well said and certainly possible. 
 

Changing his swing to a more planar model will be like learning another language. His swing is currently the polar opposite.

 

Part of the reason the hips appear so fast in the downswing is that the amount of backswing shoulder turn is quite small in relation to the arm swing. 
 

A less disconnected, more structured arm swing in the backswing would be a good start in accomplishing what he wants in reducing the hook. That would likely have to start with the takeaway. 

 

 

 

. 
 

 

[Zitlow]

3 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

Yes

 

 

Could, and should be, a quicker than most trapping.

 

 

The stick you placed on the ground may not be doing you any favors if you are tying your optics and shaft orientation together, and it looks like you are and you like seeing the shaft on top of the stick at first parallel,  which kicks the lead arm WAY out and around too much from underneath you.  If you must use sticks, start with it a little closer, such as:

 

 

 

Or, watch about the first 3 minutes, a grinder and a player with great insight.  

 

 

 

 

 

He's quite a good athlete to hit the ball with speed and still keep it on the golf course. A FO view would be interesting to see. 

 

He casts the club because he starts his hands first, a waste of energy. If you look at his right shoulder and arm his sequence is hands, arm and then shoulder.

 

 

This is from a Sybervision video Mike Dunaway did in the 80s shot with a high speed camera. His sequence is right shoulder, arm and hand. An in tandem three lever release. 

 

 

 

 

[chigolfer1]

OP's swing (takeaway/backswing) is another one where Dan C's alignment rod on RIGHT side of body will really help:

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrV3_Y8r0nk/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by chigolfer1

[chigolfer1]

11 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

First off it’s really not that across the line if at all, it’s just the swing is long.  
 

Yes, you could work on getting the wrists to work the club more vertically.  Yes you could shorten your swing a bit.  Yes you could get a little less cuped just before the end of the backswing.

 

That would be a lot of work for mostly aesthetic results and possibly not help your ball striking that much.  You’re in a respectable position at the top.

 

IMO, the backswing is functional and I’d work on what in my experience is one of the worst shoulder spin outs I’ve ever seen.  
 

Below is a slightly shorter backswing and what comes after that is a lot of unnecessary wrist movement after your body is turned.

 

If I were you I’d listen to Jack Nicklaus and Justin Rose.

 

JN-Keep your back to the target as long as you can.

 

JR-Feel like you stay closed until your hands and the shaft get to p6.

 

Yeah, I mean if you freeze at his impact position, it actually looks pretty good?  It's sorta amazing and impressive how he manages to get there. I have to imagine that 95% of ams that are at his position at the start of the downwing are going to have an incredibly steep OTT and EE swing, but he somehow manages to shallow and get in a decent position.

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, Grizpharm said:

Hey guys thanks for the advice on this! @MonteScheinblum I have always felt like I spin just about everything out on the downswing super fast. I follow all your social media stuff and have seen the ideas of keeping my back to the target longer but can’t seem to do it by just thinking it. Any drills you suggest? 

You have to start slowly.  Hit 7 iron half shots 100 yards.  Your body thinks that spin out is where s-we’d comes from.  You have to teach it that’s not the case.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, chigolfer1 said:

 

Yeah, I mean if you freeze at his impact position, it actually looks pretty good?  It's sorta amazing and impressive how he manages to get there. I have to imagine that 95% of ams that are at his position at the start of the downwing are going to have an incredibly steep OTT and EE swing, but he somehow manages to shallow and get in a decent position.

Yes

[Grizpharm]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You have to start slowly.  Hit 7 iron half shots 100 yards.  Your body thinks that spin out is where s-we’d comes from.  You have to teach it that’s not the case.

Thanks I’ll work on this. Would shortening my swing help the shoulder spin as well, or 2 completely separate issues? 

[Grizpharm]

Not sure how to take these comments around how amazing it is I can still hit a golf ball like this 😆😆

[MPStrat]

14 minutes ago, Grizpharm said:

Not sure how to take these comments around how amazing it is I can still hit a golf ball like this 😆😆

We are looking at one dtl swing from one day and making observations about your long term golf swing goals. That’s not how improving a motion really works unfortunately. And you should definitely not take any of it as gospel, that’s for sure.

 

A face on view would be another piece of the puzzle.

 

One thing I would bet a large amount of money on…. you will not be able to take your current backswing and make any other downswing than you currently do with any level of success. 

 

 

 

 

[chigolfer1]

2 hours ago, Grizpharm said:

Not sure how to take these comments around how amazing it is I can still hit a golf ball like this 😆😆

 

LOL, you're an athletic freak!

[chigolfer1]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

 

 

One thing I would bet a large amount of money on…. you will not be able to take your current backswing and make any other downswing than you currently do with any level of success. 

 

 

 

 

 

From what Monte said at least, this just doesn't seem to be true.

[Grizpharm]

Just now, chigolfer1 said:

 

LOL, you're an athletic freak!

Dont think that’s it 😂

[Zitlow]

His inner Victor Hovland is trying to get out. Victor won Jack's tournament a couple weeks ago and shot 3 under today. Not too shabby.